Curse

Greedy Gus · Mar 02, 2008, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Guildwars has been out for nearly 3 years now. It's looking a bit long in the tooth after a few years of 'blaze a trail' style poke & prod experimental balance updates. It's known that GW2 development is well under way by now. There is a general feeling right now that the game is ready for some finality in regard to the update cycle, and we have 2.5 years of competitive play to look back upon to see what worked well and what didn't. The following is a general list of the biggest points to hit, heavily focused around vision for the game with as broad a perspective as possible, intended to provide some closure to development attention and restore the gvg community's goodwill to the franchise as GW1 finishes out.
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As far as the skill balance goes, the general idea is to combine the nerfing of key cornerstone power creep areas with the buffing of additional options and old healthy skills/templates in order to create a more even overall (lower) power level. In doing this you're able to throttle back on areas like pure offense, defense, etc., and shape the situation to again more fairly allow for toolbox bars and provide strategic choices in buildmaking.

And as with any changes, the intent & vision for the game is the important part, so if replacement skills pop right in and thwart the desired effect, they'll have to be dealt with accordingly.

Reduce/Remove Key Post-Nightfall Power Creep

Kill natural stride
Kill mending touch

This is so phenomenally important in regard to changing the current gvg dynamic, and I'm not sure enough people see it yet. The reason this is initially hard to swallow is that ranger templates at the moment are not degenerate, and do reward skillful play.

The problem arises in that the cripshot template with natural stride and mending touch is too strong at containment and control play; it ends up wiping out a ton of other potentially playable tactics and skirmish builds. It raises the bar that everything is measured against in skirmish play from blinding flash to interrupts. We need that bar lowered back down, in order to start fixing other healthy templates especially in regard to flaggers and flexible split characters (opposed to dedicated split). It's important to note that even when metagames arise where rangers aren't a dominant play choice, this character template still just existing is limiting of what can be successfully played.

The main intent of this change is to get condition removal off rangers, and to remove the awesome bar compression of block stance + speed boost. There used to be interesting (tough) strategic choices to be made when deciding to run a ranger, based on tools you'd want (run buff, block stance, res sig, blackout, self-heal, hunters/debil shot) but limited slots. This choice was made based on preference, opponent, teambuild synergy, or team strategy.

However, the absolute most important aspect is getting condi-removal off rangers. Luckily, if you absolutely can't make both of these skills disappear, you can target natural stride and make rangers look to distortion for a good skirmish stance, and hence kill the ability to run condi removal.

Kill glyph of lesser energy

This skill being powered up has led to all sorts of stuff being viable, mostly on defensive characters. Unfortunately, even though many people like seeing new stuff pop up powered by GoLE, those previous limitations (attribute spec, conditionals, actively creating energy) linked to non-elite energy management were important in keeping many characters' and skills' power in check (monks, necros, elite-based eles, ward mesmers, 2sec+ cast time spells, etc.). This skill simply needs to go away for awhile (nerfed hard in some fashion) in any skill balance that is going to attempt to fix the broad design issues.

Nerf avatar of melandru

This skill has been danced around for over a year, and even though it has largely fallen from play (mostly due to proximity nerfs), it's a certain power creep issue. The complete immunity is the heart of the issue, and whether it's sprinting through lava, making the enemy's blind literally useless, or being unspikable with protection from deep wound, it's a problem skill. Even if running a mel derv at times may not be close to the dominant strategy, it merely existing causes balance issues in the big picture when trying to promote more variety and active instead of passive defense. This skill doesn't need to be killed, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to do so temporarily when deciding how to bring it back in without breaking any delicate balance (avatar of grenth history is a good precedent).

Nerf rending touch

This is the kind of skill that can really be a trouble-maker when looking at overall balance. I'm not opposed to powerful counter-based skills existing on the fringe to keep overload or overdependance skills/strategies in check (SoR/SoD spam is a good example in this case). But the issue here is that this skill merely existing has the potential to not allow any duration enchantments to see consistent play, many of which are healthy and not degenerate (notably ether prodigy here, attune to a lesser extent). In this case, the game worked well when the standard for enchant removal was right around the level of the old drain enchant, and rending touch should be nerfed to be more in line (or at least not be a shoe-in for warrior utility).

Nerf blinding surge (potentially)

I'm not entirely sure on this one, but this skill basically epitomizes the "we need to diversion this powerful skill before we can accomplish anything" mindset, which I think most people would like to break away from. At least blinding flash (even when eprod powered) is expensive enough that you have to more carefully choose what to spend your energy on and when (and draw feels like a more efficient active counter). Killing GoLE could prove sufficient though.

Nerf hex eater vortex (potentially)

Hex eater is problematic in that it really punishes casual/active hexing, and isn't very effective against the more degenerate sticky/duration hexes (that get cover spammed). In the broad scheme, you want to power this skill down, or change it to better punish hex stacking, if you want to be able to ever promote active hex defense such as a water ele in a balanced build. This skill doesn't need to be completely killed, and does tend to be more interesting than most on this list, but at the very least just drop the damage to a much smaller packet.

Nerf power leak (potentially)

I know this one is a bit late given the recent nerf, but I imagine it could be a candidate for re-buffing. The basic issue here is that really good interrupts like this lead to the kind of execution-heavy (and ping dependant) play we've been embroiled in since the hex meta was killed midway through 2007. When this skill is really good and always in the meta, it really ends up limiting what else can be played (do I sound like a broken record yet?) on casters.

The key is to break the mindset that mesmers are interrupt-bitches, and try to even the choices for dom mesmers so there is decision-making involved in filling your skill slots based on preference, team strategy, etc. A lot of the movement away from interrupt-heavy gameplay is on the shoulders of balancing passive defense, but it doesn't hurt to remind people that dom mesmers often used to play without interrupts.

Revert Past Nerfs That Were Targetted Based on Popularity

Other avenues have been explored over a couple years, and the game is ready for these skills to be prominent again (or at least powered back up to be in contention as strategic options).

Bring blackout up: 3..6 duration, 4 sec self-disable
Bring gale back up: either 5e or 3s KD

These skills are widely thought of as being good for the game, for good reason. They promote more disruptive play in place of overwhelming pure defense or offense, can be used flexibly, and depend on good tactical, proactive timing rather than reflex-based, reactive disruption.

As far as the details go, the intent is to make blackout attractive again for rangers (in the wake of killing off mending touch) with a 3 spec, 4s blackout & 4s self-disable. Some feel it could use a minor buff for mesmers, and gets that through the one extra second advantage over the target. The goal for gale is to either get it back on warriors or mesmers, and personally I don't mind which. Many are afraid that 5e gale is insane on warriors, but I think that's overvaluing it. Gale just tends to allow for more adaptable play than shock on wars (with accompanying drawbacks), especially in regard to skirmishing. If going the mesmer route, keep an eye on Glyph of Energy, as it breaks the natural limiting factor (exhaustion) and can lead to spammy play.

Bring OoB back up
Bring inspiration back up (drain enchantment especially)
Revert ether prodigy damage nerf

Active energy management really is generally good for the game, and these skills were nerfed simply for overuse rather than degeneracy. The goal here is two-fold: provide healthier energy management options to offset GoLE getting destroyed, and to reintroduce the energy sub-game to GvG (creation and denial). You don't need to make it too important (see: EP & iQ's understanding of energy drain and fear me respectively in 2005), but relevant enough to be an interesting aspect of the game (that has been missing for over a year). As a bonus, making energy levels more relevant again also helps deal with the mass 40/40 fast cast set usage.

Lower esurge/eburn damage, up e-denial
Strongly consider reverting esurge AoE nerf

These changes are intended to give dom mesmers back their teeth in balanced play, which is another important angle to fixing the passive physical defense problem. I really don't see any reason for surge & burn damage to have been buffed to be so spikey, and getting bumped back to 10 e-denial and 80 pre-VoD damage should keep their value while aiming them in a healthier direction. Energy surge being reverted to area AoE would also be a boon to dealing with ward camping.

Bring divine boon back up
Bring CoP back up
Revert mend ailment recharge nerf

Boon prots can safely be brought back up to speed, to provide extra strategic/playstyle options. This is also important to provide some individually powerful and sturdy monk additions to 2007's more complex, specific, interdependent backlines, in order to reintroduce some more flexible tactical options.

Revert distortion rework, nerf energy loss to 4..2
Let expertise affect stances

The intent here is obviously to provide rangers a good skirmish stance option (5 sec duration, 5 recharge) to replace natural stride. It can pop up on other characters too, which is fine, as it can slow down the pace of the game to make things a bit less swingy and introduce more attrition and momentum-building. Distortion is desirable on rangers because it's more reliable (natural stride against interrupts is a coin flip) stretching out skirmish play to reward tactical skill, but unable to prevent the inevitable when in a ranger duel (losing energy, no mending touch and run away option).

As far as the nerf on distortion, this is to require a 4-spec illusion for -3e breakpoint, and to push the -2e break from 8 illu to 12 illu (to keep the very strong distortion off monks, rangers, and dom mesmers, and keep uber -1e distortion off illusion mesmers).

Pick a Preferred Model of Party Healing and Embrace It

The idea here is that there really hasn't been any design vision for party healing. We ended up with eprod powered heal party originally by accident, and throughout the years skills have been nerfed and buffed randomly more or less. I think at this point many people are tired of the experimentation (seems that Izzy is hoping to tweak the individual skills and get lucky again), and the game is ready for us to look back with a wide scope, decide what worked best, and run with it.

As far as I'm concerned, what worked best was powered party healing on the flag runner, for a number of reasons. First of all, it changes the way the opponent deals with party healing. Flagstand party healing needs to be dealt with by shutting it down, through diversion, humility, interruption, etc. Radar party healing on the flagger can be dealt with in a variety of ways: getting ahead on flags, forcing enemy non-flaggers to shuttle a few flags, pushing positionally to pressure the heal party guy, splitting to his base, etc. These are more tactical in nature and less execution-based (see: LoD make or break meta).

The other big issue is that giving more limitations & roles to flaggers helps keep them from over-specializing, which is a big barricade to flexible splitting at the moment. This issue arose in Vanq's Splitting - Balanced vs. Focused thread, and I tried to express the idea as best I could:

Quote:

[Flagstand party healing] has made split play less interesting, because it let flaggers be tanks....The key is that with so many things to consider & deal with, there's a lot of risk/reward decisions, both in regard to the build you bring, as well as what you're doing at any point during a match (running a flag, defending a base, staying to heal party, assisting an offensive skirmish, dueling another flagger for morale/superiority, etc.). The more things that become unnecessary on the flagger (flag duels, powered party healing), the more flaggers can focus on doing the other tasks very well, and we begin to lose that level of interesting risk/reward decision making

If you can get back to the old paradigm, you'll again begin to see individual player skill of flaggers become more apparent (decision-making, communication, positioning, etc.), and the party healing situation should be ok. As far as the specifics for getting back to that paradigm, the biggest issue is powering down the offensive split options (r/mo, sins) so running such defensive tanks isn't necessary. I'm not entirely sure on the actual skill changes for flaggers & heal party that you'd need if choosing to go in this direction, and would suggest seeking the counsel of Ensign and other oldschool flaggers.

Fix/Remove Problem Professions/Attributes

Paragon

Paragons as they exist now are a really deep issue that needs to be dealt with, and there really isn't an easy fix. The core of the issue is that their faults lie in the profession's design rather than some unbalanced skills. Often when they take on a more defensive nature (DA, partygon, etc.) people see it readily and complain loudly. But offensive paragons (which tend to be more fun to play) are really problematic when you look with a broad view at their effect on offense vs. defense and active vs. passive effectiveness. My best attempt at outlining the entire issue was in the thread How can we moderate physical damge but promote skillful play? Some of the key points raised:

Quote:

...the threat of offensive paragons in the midline is largely the most important actual paradigm shift in the balanced build environment post-NF. It upsets the delicate, classic play-between of GW balanced builds.

Midliners who deal damage are an entirely new thing, never seen before Nightfall...[other offensive midliners] apply pressure indirectly and still rely on warriors as damage outlets to kill things. (Damage outlets are focal points that can be actively defended against)

Paragons really need to go away and be brought back up with a better design that doesn't break the balanced build paradigm that worked well for 1.5 years. I'm not sure where to start here; preferably, you could cut into spear damage or attack rate, and model paragons after rangers more than ranged warriors (effectiveness based on skills brought, more utility than damage). If that isn't possible, you could gut spear mastery across the board, or certainly make aggressive refrain unplayable (get real on this skill...free and associated with a -20AL condition; compare it to frenzy which is expensive and worse than -40AL inherent).

Assassin

Any sort of insta-gib type assassin combos existing really makes it hard to steer the game in a healthy direction, especially when coupled with shadow-stepping. The threat of these sins is enough to force flaggers more into tank/"base defender" type roles, as well as limiting how consistently other balanced/flexible split templates can be played. Shadowstepping tends to break quite a lot of important aspects of GvG, including risk involved in ganking, and the effectiveness of offensive characters using disruption to play defensively.

Basically these sins need to go away. I don't really have the patience or experience to list all the necessary nerfs, but there are plenty of people who have written novels on assassin suggestions. As far as how to bring assassins back into GvG later in a more healthy style, one possible vision is embracing high mobility and utility, while slashing their damage output (rely on poison/bleeding/deep wound for killing instead of +damage comboes) in a more similar vein to GWFC's AoD sins.

Necro

The necro isn't really as degenerate or gameplay-ruining as paras or sins, but it's been a class that never really worked in the balanced build archetype, and there seems to always be some focus on fixing the profession up. So here are some example visions for reworking the necro attributes:

Curses line:

This attribute has really never been very healthy for the game; duration hexes are problematic in GW, especially when they bog down gameplay (anti-melee). Scrap this design. Model the curses line after the successes of dom mesmers, with the intent of making the necro into a viable offensive-support midliner. Differentiate it from mesmers by doing more degen-based and low-packet damage instead of being spikey. The goal is to provide another skill-based, flexible, midline caster option, for teams who prefer more pressure/split balanced play to spike/split.

The key to changing the vision for an attribute is to simply change enough skills that players can make a decent skillbar for the character. Here are some general brainstorm ideas for curses skill updates aimed at achieving this vision (and I'm not creative, others can surely do better):

Atrophy: rework to: 10/1/12 "Hex Spell. For 5 seconds, target foe's attributes are reduced by 3...10. If target foe casts a spell that targets an ally, Atrophy ends."

Aim for making this skill the bread & butter, short-term shutdown skill, similar to a dom mesmer's diversion. May have to potentially move it to soul reaping to avoid mesmer use.

Defile defenses: add -1 degen, reduce damage to 30...105 (still ends on trigger)

Meekness: rework to: 10/1/15 "Hex Spell. For 3...18 seconds, target foe suffers -3 health degeneration for each nearby enemy and -3 energy degeneration for each adjacent enemy. If target foe suffers a new hex, or uses an attack skill, Meekness ends." (enhance persistent animation to something more noticeable)

Strange idea, but basically create a pin-ball subgame with an enemy (noticeable animation, warriors end up pushing someone around who is trying to kite the e-denial). Can't be covered (so removal is an easy counter to avoid a monk getting destroyed by a knocklock), and it doesn't destroy warriors.

Rotting flesh: 2 second cast time

(Non-tainted) Disease is an awesome game mechanic, and I think should be embraced a bit more. This change makes rotting more directable, to punish enemy positioning if you have good awareness and timing.

(?/?/?) for 3-12 seconds, whenever target foe casts a targetted spell, that foe loses 3 energy and their target gains 3 energy.

(10/1/20) remove an enchantment from target foe. that enemy and nearby foes suffer 2 degen for 2-15 seconds

(?/?/?) for 5 seconds, whenever target foe casts a spell that targets an ally, both foes become bleeding for 5-20 seconds

Blood line:

This attribute's design as the necro's direct damage has really only attracted the scum of the earth (blood spikers, touch rangers). Scrap that. Try to direct this attribute to be for skirmish necros, generally based on stealing health, modeled after successful split templates like rangers and mindblast guys. I don't have any specific suggestions here, but I do think life siphon should be dropped to 1 sec cast time and be a cornerstone skill for the template.

Simplify the GvG Format to What Has Worked Best

Remove ViO, remove increasing NPC damage
Revert to the old number of NPCs

The problems with VoD have historically been skill balance issues (AoE without counterbalancing cast times or holding a dangerous position), and AI/pathing issues. With the changes for better spread AI and wave-based advance, the glaring issues are largely alleviated, and the simpler old rules make for a healthier format. As far as the new anti-block skills, you could really go either way, and that may be an interesting debate.

Either way, NPCs really tended to have a proper value compared to morale already in 2005 and 2006. And if any changes are made to encourage split play, you really want them to be opposite in intent than ViO: encourage playing in extended skirmishes and trying to finish the lord early or forcing a retreat, not sniping out single archers to gain a numerical NPC advantage.

Implement some style of randomized maps in ATs

This change has massive potential for repairing fun and interesting tournament play. It is a considerable change to the gimmick vs. balanced dynamic. This really helps restore the power of adaptability in team tactics (true player skill) and helps fix the balance of utility & toolbox skills/builds vs. pure min/max powerplay.

If we can't have full randomized maps for ATs, at least try out randomizing a smaller (known) pool of maps. If we can't even get that, at the very least have a couple rounds in the rotation that are randomized between a few opposite style maps.

I fully understand that Izzy likes the aspect of knowing what map will be played on in order to get more interesting map-specific tactics such as WM bodyblocking the vinebridge, but that really hasn't been a significant aspect of tournaments in the last year. I understand that it works for RTS and FPS games where you're picking from a limited pool of balanced races/styles before the match, but I think when you look at Guildwars objectively it doesn't work well (tends to make one-dimensional gimmick play prolific).

Keep an Eye on Standard Problem Skills / Strategies

Watch super speedboosts, super hardresses, skills that apply burning or daze, YAA, frozen burst, grasping earth, glyph of energy, aura of stability (wants a bigger animation), soldier's defense, splinter, ancestors rage, derv spikers, mystic regen, fire magic, illusion magic, sticky hexes, aegis (wants to be 15e and radar range)

Basically the ever persistent shortlist of stuff to watch and make sure doesn't degenerate the game. The community is good at shouting about this stuff. The caution about burning skills has to do with mending touch disappearing.

Consider lowering duration of short-term shutdown (shame, guilt, diversion, etc.) to 5 seconds

Just a potential caution, if bringing gale, blackout, new necro shutdown skills, etc. into heavier play for disruption instead of just mass interrupts, it could possibly make for some troublesome overload builds.

Vaga · Mar 02, 2008, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Good post I agree.

Takida · Mar 02, 2008, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Nice post really, i Agree.

Killed u man · Mar 02, 2008, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Well, above 2 said it

However, you pretty much compiled ALL the idea's/complaints over the past 1.5 years into 1 post (Well Done), and I still HIGHLY doubt anything will ever change.

Anet doesn't care about GW anymore, and it shows... Every 2-3 months, they throw us a bone, in the form of a still rather crappy update. This is misleading for ALOT of people who think, because of those updates, Anet is actually putting tought/care into them. In reality, however, it is nothing more but a small patch (More like make-up) to keep us quiet, and make us believe GW2 will be worth buying...

Alex the Great · Mar 02, 2008, 02:53 AM // 02:53

we need closure, with no new skills comeing out, there is potential for longterm balance.

Santa Is Leet · Mar 02, 2008, 03:05 AM // 03:05

OO I like what I see here, reworking entire professions is drastic not sure anet will buy it. BUT, that short duration bread and butter hexes you were talking about with necros...brilliant ideas. I mean really, you've seen mesmers carry around a core set of of really meaty skills, not overpowered, but effective and versatile and many other professions have similar patterns(wtb holy veil or diversion anyone?) I dont play paras a ton, but i think what you are saying there should be given credit too, they've been the focus of numerous nerfs without buffs since they came into play, more than most professions i can name. Maybe that should clue in some of that base reworking you were talking about. I agree with the spear mastery nerf, but pve wont have any of it. On the other hand i dont think they should be molded into more ranger type characters, why else were they given 80 armor, shouts and watelse instead of the paras version of whirling defense, plus the fact spears have shortbow range. And one last thing ..../signed for the nerf of insta-gib sins.

RhanoctJocosa · Mar 02, 2008, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Great post Gus. Let's hope it doesn't go unread.

Tyla · Mar 02, 2008, 03:59 AM // 03:59

^What Rhanoct said.
Very nice post indeed.

Yoshikuni Mahsu · Mar 02, 2008, 04:20 AM // 04:20

100% True.
Good Post.

Keekles · Mar 02, 2008, 04:50 AM // 04:50

I am 100% in agreement. Wonderful post.

Zuranthium · Mar 02, 2008, 04:53 AM // 04:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

*Kill natural stride
*Kill mending touch

I think Natty Stride only needs a slight nerf. Change the duration to 2 + (Attribute Rank / 3). What also I dislike is how a standard Ranger is basically forced to spec into Wilderness Survival, making this skill omnipresent on Ranger bars. Barbed Arrows should be in Marksmanship and not have that "easily interrupted" downside. Dodge should be buffed so that it's superior run stance to Nat Stride.

For M-touch I'd like to see the skill in Healing Prayers and removing 2 conditions at a spec of 6 and 3 conditions at a spec of 12.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Kill glyph of lesser energy

I believe it's only a problem skill with Aegis, which is overpowered at 10 energy and boring in general. GOLE has been a perfect skill for the Ele. B-Surge isn't overpowered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Nerf rending touch

I don't think this is problem skill. Warriors do not have the energy to spam it and the time you most want enchant removal anyway is during a spike, at which point a Warrior obviously can't be spiking while they use this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Nerf hex eater vortex

This skill feels fine after the cumulative small nerfs. Water Elems are seeing a healthy amount of play again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

*Bring blackout up: 3..6 duration, 4 sec self-disable
*Bring gale back up: either 5e or 3s KD

Blackout is absolutely fine in current form. Other areas of the Ranger simply need to be changed so that speccing out of Wilderness Survival is possible. You'd be able to make Ranger templates with a 5 second Blackout if that happened.

3 second Gale is a big NO. The skill was much too good like that. Seeing as how the 2 second Gale still sees a lot of play, I'm not sure what you feel is wrong with it. Disabling the off-Monk for 2 seconds is all that's needed to get a spike through if timed perfectly.

METEOR is a better candidate to be changed into a 3-second KD, since it has the long cast time and recharge as a buffer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

*Bring OoB back up
*Bring inspiration back up (drain enchantment especially)
*Revert ether prodigy damage nerf

The first one already happened.

Funny that you say "Drain Enchantment especially", as that skill decently balanced now. The Inspiration Elites, Inspired/Revealed Hex, and various other skills in the line are more needing of a buff.

E-prod change, sure, but I highly, highly disagree with you saying that E-prod + HP should be the only viable form of party-wide healing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

*Lower esurge/eburn damage, up e-denial
*Strongly consider reverting esurge AoE nerf

Yes, definitely. There was nothing wrong with these skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

*Bring divine boon back up
*Bring CoP back up
*Revert mend ailment recharge nerf

Agree about Boon.

CoP is fine. It would be more popular if there were a greater number of skills in the vein of Shroud of Silence that were viable.

Mend Ailment was overpowered. It should be buffed, but not to what it was. The functionality should be a bit different and this should be a HEALING PRAYERS skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Stuff about Paragons, Assassins, Necros

Yes, they need a lot of work. It would be better to start discussions about each of these in their own threads, though. I think we all know what happens when a thread tries to tackle too many ideas at once....

~Z

jaeharys targaryen · Mar 02, 2008, 06:09 AM // 06:09

i'll post more on this later, but regarding sins:
i couldnt agree more

nerfing sins that dont use aod into the ground would do wonders for the class. if the only viable sin bar for pvp is a/e aod shocker or soem other form of strongly splittable strongly versatile strongly durable aod sin, i think even sin split could be salvaged as a respectable albeit still gimmicky build

Kamikaze Gopher · Mar 02, 2008, 06:25 AM // 06:25

Awesome post. I also believe that Sins and Paragons can be salvaged, but for the time being, they should be nerfed till a suitable solution can be found.

I think the game needs to start coming to a finality as GW2 comes out. It would be a truly awesome gesture if they could make this happen.

mrmango · Mar 02, 2008, 06:25 AM // 06:25

Why kill when you can slightly weaken? Is having some more skills worthless better than having more skills useful and balanced?

Greedy Gus · Mar 02, 2008, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmango

Why kill when you can slightly weaken? Is having some more skills worthless better than having more skills useful and balanced?

In some cases (and only a few are called for here), the outcome is better to ether renewal the skills, in order to make them disappear completely and allow the meta to shape in their absence.

Kyp Jade · Mar 02, 2008, 10:57 AM // 10:57

Paragons will always be lousy in a balanced template, as long as refrains stay like they are. Im not advocating a nerf to all refrains, but really paragons are quite shit on any split. And also keep in mind I am speaking from an HA view.

Paragons are designed for 8v8 fights, put them on maps like capture points (or in gvg, split), and they are just a waste of space. Thats all due to the refrains a paragon has to maintain throughout the fight. Thats a huge blow to mobility.

They can either stop every 10 seconds for anthem of flame
Carry along some useless instant cast shout like theyre on fire to keep mobility.
Or put up refrains when they reach thier destination, and struggling for energy for the next minute or so during a fight. (this is on split, at most +3 from leadership)

Before I even suggest changes, I want all current refrains to be made into finales, so nothing that lasts forerver. Second, I want them to not stack, I mean only one at a time. That being said, they need to be worth it to bring.

I would like to see things like bladeturn refrain and mending refrain remade to have long duration (40+ seconds), fast recharge (2-8s), low energy(5 or adrenal, which is better becasue he cant precast before battle), like vital weapon. 1s cast, But not reapply.

Aggressive Refrain needs to be made more like frenzy. Low energy/adren, fast cast, low duration. Fast Recharge. Paragons need to be able to be perma IAS to even be useful in a fight. Spear attack speed is stupid retarded slow. What they dont need, is a literally permanent IAS. Making AR into something like a stance is what they need to be able to split, while also being vulerable to shutdown.

What does this do?
It stops paragons from turning your entire team into mending tanks, they can still apply things much like a vital ritualist does, but he has to spend a lot more time doing so, and you can disrupt it as well.

Makes them spend resources for the much needed IAS, instead of having it forever and forgetting about it.

Tamuril elansar · Mar 02, 2008, 11:03 AM // 11:03

yup, i'm fine when i see no assassins/dervishes/paragons/necs in gvg.
they didnt bring anything but overpowered builds.

Ozlae · Mar 02, 2008, 11:25 AM // 11:25

So, let me get this straight? You want the old ranger/mesmer back with blackout and distortion, and boon prots ftw?

I am sorry, but I fail to see how this would be a move forward for the current meta.

Frank Dudenstein · Mar 02, 2008, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Gus that was quite a lengthy post. For those of you that didn't make it through the whole thing, let me recap in a more concise format:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Delete Factions, Nightfall, EotN and revert every skill balance since April 2006

See ... much easier.

RhanoctJocosa · Mar 02, 2008, 01:45 PM // 13:45

5e 3s gale pls