Curse

Cass · Aug 12, 2008, 09:10 AM // 09:10

NPCs should have more value than they presently have.

One thing I strongly dislike about the current rules and many of the proposals here is that they involve completely INVISIBLE effects. So and so much health for capping, for killing that type of NPC, or x% boost for running a full circle around the enemy base, or even determining who won the game (see: Is it damage sustained on the lord, like ever, or is health at 28 mins?)...

It just complicates things when you have to keep track of how many boosts you had, how much % extra damage your archers may or may not have, and then to estimate the actual effect of that buff (Is+ 20% archer damage enough to compensate for a farming dervish on the other team?).

I really don't see why the rules were changed in this radical and fairly unpredictable way. 'Old VoD' without the damage buff might have been enough to render defensive builds useless, unable to kill at VoD. If not, bring back some for of health penalty?

Also. Ridiculous necro buffs on Pain of Disenchantment (compare with Shatterstorm for example) and previously Foul Feast need to be toned down a lot. Reason: Enchantments stand no chance, 2x healing (WoH) will become dominant while prot is a much more interesting play. Conditions stand no chance, with simple spike builds prevailing over pressure (even more).

lutz · Aug 12, 2008, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

NPCs should have more value than they presently have.

One thing I strongly dislike about the current rules and many of the proposals here is that they involve completely INVISIBLE effects. So and so much health for capping, for killing that type of NPC, or x% boost for running a full circle around the enemy base, or even determining who won the game (see: Is it damage sustained on the lord, like ever, or is health at 28 mins?)...

It just complicates things when you have to keep track of how many boosts you had, how much % extra damage your archers may or may not have, and then to estimate the actual effect of that buff (Is+ 20% archer damage enough to compensate for a farming dervish on the other team?).

I really don't see why the rules were changed in this radical and fairly unpredictable way. 'Old VoD' without the damage buff might have been enough to render defensive builds useless, unable to kill at VoD. If not, bring back some for of health penalty?

Also. Ridiculous necro buffs on Pain of Disenchantment (compare with Shatterstorm for example) and previously Foul Feast need to be toned down a lot. Reason: Enchantments stand no chance, 2x healing (WoH) will become dominant while prot is a much more interesting play. Conditions stand no chance, with simple spike builds prevailing over pressure (even more).

Numerous condition pressure builds are being run, and dual WoH is absolutely stupid. You need Restore Condition in this meta.

You forget: most WoH bars are not healing bars. Most of them are mostly prot bars with just WoH as the elite.

If you're used to being baby-ed for everything (number of boosts, damage on the Guild Lord), then you should know the game has gotten a lot easier since prophecies. There didn't used to be a flag boost timer, so you had to literally keep track of flag stand caps all game. Damage on the lord and health on the lord are both pretty insignificant, and it's pretty clear who has the advantage.

Cass · Aug 12, 2008, 09:26 AM // 09:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Numerous condition pressure builds are being run, and dual WoH is absolutely stupid. You need Restore Condition in this meta.

You forget: most WoH bars are not healing bars. Most of them are mostly prot bars with just WoH as the elite.

I predict they won't be for long anymore. No RC is needed when you have a necro like this: Foul Feast, Draw Conditions, Plague Sending, Pain of Disenchantment, Rip Enchantment, Faintheartedness, Defile Defenses, X.
We saw this being run in the AT yesterday, with two WoHs, by the way, and it was a strong counter to our (mild) condition pressure.

We can argue about whether bringing WoH means you're a healer or not. I don't see the point of that argument though.

EDIT: In response to your edit. No matter how bad it was with invisible mechanics in the past, the game should strive to avoid those. It's better for gameplay (there is NO skill in keeping track of an invisible timer, and it just leads to people using external timers) and it's a lot better for beginners.
Would you argue that the old way of interrupting without skill activation bars is better than what we have now? More information has led to much improved play here, in my opinion.

lutz · Aug 12, 2008, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

I predict they won't be for long anymore. No RC is needed when you have a necro like this: Foul Feast, Draw Conditions, Plague Sending, Pain of Disenchantment, Rip Enchantment, Faintheartedness, Defile Defenses, X.
We saw this being run in the AT yesterday, with two WoHs, by the way, and it was a strong counter to our (mild) condition pressure.

We can argue about whether bringing WoH means you're a healer or not. I don't see the point of that argument though.

EDIT: In response to your edit. No matter how bad it was with invisible mechanics in the past, the game should strive to avoid those. It's better for gameplay (there is NO skill in keeping track of an invisible timer, and it just leads to people using external timers) and it's a lot better for beginners.
Would you argue that the old way of interrupting without skill activation bars is better than what we have now? More information has led to much improved play here, in my opinion.

Actually, all you really need is Pure Was Ling Mi. A Foul Feast is generally useless, and if your midline can't shut down/negate enough of the pressure then you can call them bad. If they don't have the utility do to so, then you have bad midline bars.

More information generally makes things more complicated; you have to check morale charts, status charts, boost timers, and a lot of things - now you want to add Guild Lord damage and health? Boosts can already be found through the morale chart, anyway.

You claimed that this play makes active protting (one of the vital parts of Guild Wars) something old and outdated; I merely responded that most WoH bars (especially if you are running dual WoH) have a LOT of active prot on their bars.

Cass · Aug 12, 2008, 10:41 AM // 10:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Actually, all you really need is Pure Was Ling Mi. A Foul Feast is generally useless, and if your midline can't shut down/negate enough of the pressure then you can call them bad. If they don't have the utility do to so, then you have bad midline bars.

More information generally makes things more complicated; you have to check morale charts, status charts, boost timers, and a lot of things - now you want to add Guild Lord damage and health? Boosts can already be found through the morale chart, anyway.

You claimed that this play makes active protting (one of the vital parts of Guild Wars) something old and outdated; I merely responded that most WoH bars (especially if you are running dual WoH) have a LOT of active prot on their bars.

Sure, "ur baed" is the answer to most things.

No, I don't want more information bars on lord health and such. I want mechanisms that do not require such extra information. Like the idea of the bonus archers moving with the lord-- no extra information needed, the presence of the archers is the boost.

Again, whether or not 'certain' or 'most' WoH bars have a lot of prot or not is not relevant at all. All I am saying is that supercharged enchant removal will push monks towards healing, which I consider to be unfavorable.

DreamWind · Aug 12, 2008, 12:44 PM // 12:44

[RANT FROM NONPLAYER] I haven't played this game with any seriousness in a long time, and I can't claim to know the "perfect fixes" to GvG. I know one thing though: There is a load of theorycrafting going on in this thread.

I'm convinced that nothing is ever going to "fix" this game. In my opinion, every change done to the game for the past 2 years (over 2 years actually) and every change done to it in the future is simply "breaking" it more than it was already broken (and yes it was always broken but it was LESS broken). Unless somebody invents a time machine, this game will never be the same. [/ENDRANT]

Snow Bunny · Aug 12, 2008, 04:13 PM // 16:13

To be honest, having played a lot of matches last night and getting a better feel for the new VoD, I must say it's terrible, for many reasons previously stated.

But meh, what do I know.

Keithark · Aug 12, 2008, 10:35 PM // 22:35

this change does nothing but lead ppl to use builds worse than sineptitude... /fail

SnowWhitepvp · Aug 14, 2008, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

"the point of fighting over the stand is basically getting morale and DPing your opponents"

I miss the good old days when gvg had purpose and real-time strategy.

The problem with all pvp in GW today is 90% of the thought that goes into a build is focused on the strategy before you even know what build your opponent is running.

I miss the days when everyone had to actually listen to the strategy caller as they came up with ideas in gvg "real-time".

GvG, HA, and even TA now are just groups of people who run a selected 8 skills with a single purpose.
This hit me when I was PUGing in HA and before we went in, the caller of the group said, "Just do what you know how"

Wheres the TEAMwork in that?
I think ANet sees this and looks at it as a lost cause. That could explain why they want to make GW:2 more or less "soloable" with a sidekick on the side.

Lodurr · Aug 15, 2008, 06:13 AM // 06:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnowWhitepvp

I miss the days when everyone had to actually listen to the strategy caller as they came up with ideas in gvg "real-time".

This is what made GW stand out from everything else out there. GvGing WAS one of those few games that made you use your entire brain at once.

Magnus Ftw · Aug 15, 2008, 07:10 AM // 07:10

Yesterday, 14 of August will be a memorial day.
The day GvG died and was replaced with the very old GvG from 3 years ago.

VoD R.I.P

Yesterday's update and the passing week's updates were the worst period in Guild Wars' life. I still don't understand why they returned GvG to what it was when Guild Wars was first released.

niek2004 · Aug 15, 2008, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Now that lords dont walk out of your base anymore, maybe its time for some creative splits. NPC's still dont matter that much, but at least a little.

Aera · Aug 15, 2008, 08:40 AM // 08:40

VoD was implemented for a reason, wtf is the reason they removed it? It's going to be EPICALLY long turtling matches now :/

WTB VoD back, with FIXES and not removing it. That's what they should've done to skills, but not to VoD

Burton2000 · Aug 15, 2008, 10:04 AM // 10:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera

VoD was implemented for a reason, wtf is the reason they removed it? It's going to be EPICALLY long turtling matches now :/

WTB VoD back, with FIXES and not removing it. That's what they should've done to skills, but not to VoD

You do realise that there is a 28 minute tie breaker in there now that prevents turtling.

Snow Bunny · Aug 15, 2008, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by niek2004

Now that lords dont walk out of your base anymore, maybe its time for some creative splits. NPC's still dont matter that much, but at least a little.

The update from yesterday made it easier (at least for us) to split. You also can't turtle with a 28 minutes tie-breaker, so you got to force an option.

Bowstring Badass · Aug 15, 2008, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera

VoD was implemented for a reason, wtf is the reason they removed it? It's going to be EPICALLY long turtling matches now :/

WTB VoD back, with FIXES and not removing it. That's what they should've done to skills, but not to VoD

I love you.....

The problem with VoD is the lack of it. No seriously.

Of course you had those retarded heavy defense builds made to go to VoD and roflstomp you but you could easily split and take out npcs. Now we have no gate locks and now all we have to do is run in and kill stuff which is now pointless because of no VoD.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

The update from yesterday made it easier (at least for us) to split. You also can't turtle with a 28 minutes tie-breaker, so you got to force an option.

Just zerg rush. Thats what the updates support.

JR · Aug 15, 2008, 11:19 PM // 23:19

The problem with GvG is people getting smarter.

People finally realized that farming NPCs was the way to win, and could pretty much blanket counter anything else. This is not due to any development or addition to the game, other than possibly a few particular problem skills (Splinter/ARage), and would probably still have become a problem even if we still lived in the golden age of Prophecies.

Any change right now is good, as it allows Izzy to experiment for Guild Wars 2. It's not going to give him any definitive answers - as always people will get smarter and learn to abuse any system - but it may give him a better starting point with the lessons of Guild Wars.

DutchSmurf · Aug 16, 2008, 11:34 AM // 11:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Any change right now is good, as it allows Izzy to experiment for Guild Wars 2. It's not going to give him any definitive answers - as always people will get smarter and learn to abuse any system - but it may give him a better starting point with the lessons of Guild Wars.

If Anet is smart, they will make a completely new system for GW2. This system has never worked well, the problems just got more and more obvious when people got smarter. The list of things wrong with GvG is that long that I would just dump it completely and make something better. Of course there will be some people upset about it, but most will welcome the improvement.

MetalMan · Aug 16, 2008, 12:00 PM // 12:00

Wait, theres still a VoD?

Rico Ric · Aug 16, 2008, 07:40 PM // 19:40

All this did was allow heroway mass smite builds, Same thing happened in HA when Hero's were added.

Pressure builds are out, splits are out if your a good "button" masher youll have a gold cape in no time.

GvG was on the down slide anyway, most of the high end guilds quit, so it made perfect since to completely destroy what was left. GG.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jr

Any change right now is good, as it allows Izzy to experiment for Guild Wars 2. It's not going to give him any definitive answers - as always people will get smarter and learn to abuse any system - but it may give him a better starting point with the lessons of Guild Wars.

Sorry-if the purpose of nerfing GvG is to "test" things out for GW2- find a different way, or start beta for that.