Curse

lutz · Aug 08, 2008, 08:10 PM // 20:10

I understand Izzy was attempting to fix the problem with the old VoD - that you could just prepare fortressway for VoD, split reactively/defensively, and then blow up everything at stand at VoD. This encouraged boring play until 18:00 (see: July Monthly Finals; actually, see: all matches that include [rawr], or any competitive tournament that include guilds with no honor). I'm glad that Izzy is attempting to fix this problem and staying away from fortressway.

However, Izzy didn't solve much. He did manage to encourage a more offensive meta - with the word "offensive" in a literal sense. I believe his definition of "offensive" was people with more damage and more physical damage on each team. Obviously, this has come true, but people are not splitting anymore. Splitting was a major source of offense, and one of the main tactics in the game that made sure GvG was healthy - that you weren't limited to 8v8 play. Now, GvG has turned into an 8v8 slugfest. If you face a split build, all you do is turtle until 20 minutes and ignore every NPC you have. When 20 minutes hits, one of two things happen.

1. The split build engages you in YOUR base. Sure, you don't have access to their lord, but they are a split build. You ran an 8v8 build. You eventually wipe them and just put free damage on their lord after 20 minutes.
2. You walk to the stand. Split build versus 8v8 offensive heavy build. Split build loses, obviously you will lose stand.

This encourages less "balanced" play. Let me first define, though, what "balanced" is. "Balanced" is the ability of a build to be equally able to split and equally able to 8v8. In essence, balanced can't do either very well, but they change their tactics based on who they are facing. If a Balanced team faces an 8v8-heavy build, they don't play 8v8 - they split off and gain their advantage there. If a Balanced team faces a split build, they try to force the split build to an 8v8 fight and gain their advantage there.

However, with splitting being a tactic that essentially doesn't really work anymore due to the ability of an 8v8 build to force you 8v8 instantly (by turtling), you will eventually have to fight that way with 0 advantage. Before, split builds were obviously able to engage 8v8 at VoD only because they had an NPC advantage (well, they should have one). Now, there is absolutely zero advantage for a split build. Basically, GvG has turned into tombs with a lot more maps. I would not be suprised to see more ranger spike, condition pressure, ritualist spike, hex pressure builds in this new meta.

So, how do you fix this problem?

1. Make NPCs matter. The only other thing that matters after VoD is damage on the Guild Lord. So, "for every NPC your team kills, you do 5% more damage to the Guild Lord at VoD."

2. Make the Bodyguard matter at VoD. Make the Bodyguard walk at VoD. That way, split builds can do suicide rushes at the Bodyguard against a turtled team to gain a significant advantage.

3. Nerf some skills that make 8v8 play far too imbalanced. Conjure + Strength of Honor basically means every single team has to run at least 2 Rends in their build. This is getting absolutely ridiculous with the "buff my warriors (or dervishes) " meta. Signet of Removal makes it too easy to remove Hexes and Conditions. Heroway is pretty stupid, and it can show you how skillless a guild needs to be now to heroway their way to silver capes. (see: July Monthly [DyS]) I understand heroway is a collection of skills, so it's difficult to nerf.

4. The new skill updates are pretty good, although I could see Pain of Disenchantment bringing up some problems. A lot of these skills aren't "use this on recharge on this character"; rather, they require decent target identification which is good. For example, Melandru's Arrow does pretty good damage, but only on moving targets. Same with Quivering Blade. Incendiary Arrows causes huge pressure, but only when used on balled targets.

Overall, the idea with the new VoD is pretty decent, but it needs to be fine-tuned.

Miss Achaea · Aug 08, 2008, 08:59 PM // 20:59

/AGREEE!!! - Tbh whitout any other tactic than 8v8 ill go HA instead... Tbh add NPC'S to be somehow usefull, say that they u deal;

2% More Damage (This can change on how many npcs there is at each map say its 15on one map then its can be 1,5% or something) for Each NPC you killed. Then say it 10NPC'S u deal 20% more damage to the Lord Only! Also i agree that the Bodyguard and the rest of the Npcs just stand at base i stupid... Tbh Keep the Old VoD , lower the dmg bonus remove Victory is Our. LEt the Npc'S come in waves. This will atleast encourage people to use RANGERS...

In the current VoD i see Ranger totally Unusefull. It might be good to hinder the opposite flagrunner but nothing more.. All in all i like he changed VoD but i hope that NPCS and some more tactic than 8v8 is good to use:P

the kurzick eater · Aug 08, 2008, 09:03 PM // 21:03

tis a thing of beauty. the NPC's should give a little less of an effect on the damage the guild lord takes imo. (5 npcs means GL takes 50% more damage, thats a lot. one pull of the catapult would basically destroy their lord, as well as all their npcs.)

Miss Achaea · Aug 08, 2008, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Ye agree, 10% Each Npcs is 2 much but say 2% or say you can get 15%+ Damage to the Guild Lord on each map. That the +% is based on how many NPCS there is on each map.. If there 5npcs on one map then its 3%+ (3x5 =15) - then you will still keep the Npcs to have benefits, also Rangers is nerfed tbh.. Magebane > All Ranger builds -.-''

lutz · Aug 08, 2008, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by the kurzick eater

tis a thing of beauty. the NPC's should give a little less of an effect on the damage the guild lord takes imo. (5 npcs means GL takes 50% more damage, thats a lot. one pull of the catapult would basically destroy their lord, as well as all their npcs.)

Changed to 5%, but it still should be a high amount. If you have the entire base wiped, you should be able to do double the damage to the enemy Guild Lord.

This also encourages splitting even after VoD hits, so you can wipe more NPCs and do more damage to the Guild Lord.

Miss Achaea · Aug 08, 2008, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Yes but then again - you encourage like Splitting even moar so then monkds can wand for 60dmg oO :/ Altough it has always been VoD when the Guild Lord runs out and then its 25%dmg.. So id say that you can get the 25%+ On Guild Lord, which encourage Ganking / spliting a bit but not like wtfu amgd splitting = win.. Also maybe try get some Disadvantage / advantage whit VoD that something happends since like now its just to run Spikkes / No splitt build all the time run whit lord and win 8v8...

Robster Lobster · Aug 08, 2008, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

2. Make the Bodyguard matter at VoD. Make the Bodyguard walk at VoD. That way, split builds can do suicide rushes at the Bodyguard against a turtled team to gain a significant advantage.

I wouldn't mind seeing an expansion on this idea. How about reverting the Bodyguards skills (maybe drop the damage slightly), and adding another one to the boat, replacing the two archers (and maybe a Knight?). Then at VoD have only the two Bodyguards walk with the Lord to stand -making sure they're programmed to stand apart- giving a reasonable amount of extra pressure to a team that can keep up both.

Adding two would make it easier to suicide rush them as well, since one can easily have a ton of prots spammed on it if the other team recognises what you're trying to do.

wuzzman · Aug 08, 2008, 11:14 PM // 23:14

splitting was dead long before this update....

LifesRestorer · Aug 08, 2008, 11:42 PM // 23:42

dedicated splits yes, but reactive splits no.
this thread is 100% true. whoever wins 8v8 wins the game. If a team gets pushed back into the base, thats it. the other team is perma boosting, giving the guild lord massive health buffs combined with the fact that reactively splitting to pick of a few core NPCs, thus gaining an advantage at VoD does nothing.

dies like fish · Aug 09, 2008, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Make NPCs each worth +30 Guild Lord Health and +1% Morale Boost. Knights and Bodyguard walk with the Guild Lord at VoD.

FoxBat · Aug 09, 2008, 04:24 AM // 04:24

Having an offensive game with the death of fortressway is a step forward, even if we are in 8v8. People are actually dying, because waiting to win at the 28 mark is a crapshoot. While holding the flagstand does grant you some VoD advantage, the point of fighting over the stand is basically getting morale and DPing your opponents, with the GL health bonus as a distant second. The GL bonus doesn't even do that much against turtles because turtles are just wasting 20 mins to lose anyway, they gain no advantages once the GLs walk out into the open and are completely vulnerable.

this is the kind of model we need to apply to splitting, or the game is going to get boring again. Splits need to somehow move the game directly towards a conclusion, not grant more VoD-only bonuses for stall tactics to screw with and Rawr to wall away against. Maybe that just means nerfing the amulet significantly in early game, though again Rawr could probably handle it. Maybe NPC losses should have an impact on team morale. There are probably better ideas. The point is, think first of something that immediately impacts the game state, so that splits have the potential to end a game quickly, instead of postponing the victory for 30 minutes. Then tack on some VoD bonuses as an afterthought.

LifesRestorer · Aug 09, 2008, 10:58 AM // 10:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by dies like fish

Make NPCs each worth +30 Guild Lord Health and +1% Morale Boost. Knights and Bodyguard walk with the Guild Lord at VoD.

Effect should only happen if VoD isn't up. this would encourage splitting as it actually does something. bost the damage reduction to 50hp though, and remove the morale boost thingy imo.

DarkNecrid · Aug 09, 2008, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Personally, I like VoD and what it did and what it meant, but I disliked its implementation because its implementation led to people stalling. Because you didn't have to do shit to get it, just wait and booooom there it is.

imo, lower the GL's health down to ~1500, weaken the AoP, add a second bodyguard, give bodyguards a damage reduction/negation skill (monster skill, not enchant so it can't be shattered), bodyguards walk with lord. Each non-Guild Thief NPC killed before 18/20 minutes (whichever) gives the team that killed the NPC +1% damage, and gives the team allied to the NPC -1% healing. Whenever an NPC dies your GL loses 50 HP. Possibly give NPCs a modified natural resistance that halves the duration of Enchantments on them mebe. It keeps the NPCs useful, encourages splitting and splitting people back to keep NPCs up, discourages defensive teams (you're not keeping the NPCs alive and you'll crack eventually), and it makes the NPCs more important than just affecting the Guild Lord and brings back VoD - but in a way that people have to work for instead of just waiting it out. It also makes the game less 8v8 because right now it feels like an 8v8 Team Arena with better looking maps.

just a random idea I had earlier.

Zabe · Aug 09, 2008, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Personally, I like VoD and what it did and what it meant, but I disliked its implementation because its implementation led to people stalling. Because you didn't have to do shit to get it, just wait and booooom there it is.

imo, lower the GL's health down to ~1500, weaken the AoP, add a second bodyguard, give bodyguards a damage reduction/negation skill (monster skill, not enchant so it can't be shattered), bodyguards walk with lord. Each non-Guild Thief NPC killed before 18/20 minutes (whichever) gives the team that killed the NPC +1% damage, and gives the team allied to the NPC -1% healing. Whenever an NPC dies your GL loses 50 HP. Possibly give NPCs a modified natural resistance that halves the duration of Enchantments on them mebe. It keeps the NPCs useful, encourages splitting and splitting people back to keep NPCs up, discourages defensive teams (you're not keeping the NPCs alive and you'll crack eventually), and it makes the NPCs more important than just affecting the Guild Lord and brings back VoD - but in a way that people have to work for instead of just waiting it out. It also makes the game less 8v8 because right now it feels like an 8v8 Team Arena with better looking maps.

just a random idea I had earlier.

I'd like that idea. Especially if the +X% damage kicked in immediatly after killing NPC, not in VoD. So splitting would effectively lead to the game going to end, not to VoD. Tho, dunno what that would result into, to sinsplit style dedicated splits?

DarkNecrid · Aug 09, 2008, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zabe

I'd like that idea. Especially if the +X% damage kicked in immediatly after killing NPC, not in VoD. So splitting would effectively lead to the game going to end, not to VoD. Tho, dunno what that would result into, to sinsplit style dedicated splits?

Ya my idea was for it to kick in immediately after the NPC dies.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Aug 09, 2008, 05:50 PM // 17:50

The problem with the new VoD is that hardly any matches actually reached VoD yet, so it's a little hard to really say much about it.

DutchSmurf · Aug 09, 2008, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

The problem with the new VoD is that hardly any matches actually reached VoD yet, so it's a little hard to really say much about it.

I've seen enough matches go to VoD by now to say that betting on the MAT final being decided by the tiebreaker is a pretty safe bet. The few times 2 equal teams played each other, you basically had a long fight at the flagstand with slowly, but steady, the spikes adding up dp. So sooner or later one team breaks or get unlucky with a baserez. If both teams are any better, you won't have that dp adding up. No movement involved, no tactics, no pressure. Really surprised people still bring rangers now most of their main tools (crippling and splitting) are close to worthless.
Of course it is still really early and the month is still long. But unless someone finds some kind of pressure build that actually works against good teams, this is going to be the most boring MAT ever. At least the previous one had some fun after 18 minutes.

One thing I did see that in the Me-some other guild match with Me on rangerspike the game was locked and seemed to be going to the tiebreaker. However, the other guild managed to pressure through the only character without stances to protect him, the guild lord. The lower health makes it easier to kill him by surprise if you get the other team's monks out of position.

Raffy · Aug 09, 2008, 10:55 PM // 22:55

this update is:

erk · Aug 09, 2008, 11:05 PM // 23:05

What about some simple formula like your Guild Lord receives +200 health for each of your NPC that are still alive?

That would give a clear objective to kill the enemy NPC's with a split.

lutz · Aug 10, 2008, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

The problem with the new VoD is that hardly any matches actually reached VoD yet, so it's a little hard to really say much about it.

It's the fact that you're forced into an 8v8 at 18-20 with no pre-vod splitting differences taking effect.
Yeah.