Curse

Master Ketsu · Aug 27, 2008, 10:39 AM // 10:39

Quote:

Aren't u his multinick? TA Monk meta has actually never been changed (ignoring boon prot and total gayness called HC which is fortunately gone).

But how its used changes often last I checked.

Teh Jace · Aug 27, 2008, 10:59 AM // 10:59

Allright on more time...

Monks back in time
heal (ZB)
backup heal + cond removal (mend cond, mend touch OR dismiss cond, rof)
e management (gole, divine spirit)
hex control (veil, sometimes deny hexes or even cure hex)
prot (guardian)
stance (disciplined, sh stance, sh bash, mantra of concentration, natural stride, ninja skills)
another utility (purge signet)

The current monks
heal (WoH)
backup heal + no cond removal (patient spirit)
e management (sig of rejuvenation, vigorous spirit - yes its an ench which can accumulate a serious amount of heal but also it can get corrupted straight away thus causing hp loss otherwise it does nothing)
hex control (veil, cure hex, spotless... preferably not all of them on the same bar lol)
prot (guardian)
stance (disciplined, sh stance, sh bash, natural stride, pious concentration)
another utility (purge signet, shield of force)

Imo the problem is certain ppl who logged into gw after 1 year break they saw different skill pictures and went crazy.
As we can see a monk must handle a lot of stuff. Giving one of his subpar (I guess even my grandmother could press draw condition on spike be it TA, HA or GvG) task to necro doesn't make him lame.

Man if the name of this thread was FF is bullshit then I would say yes and keep my mouth shut. Unfortunately it is not this case and I would say experience with monking of certain ppl here is limited to RA yet they dare to make tons of gay and incorrect statements.

moko · Aug 27, 2008, 12:14 PM // 12:14

the difference doesn't lay in what the monk bars are actually doing, it's different of how powerful they are now in comparison.

let's start with [Zealous Benediction].

ZB was 10 e, with a risk of not returning 7. it's power in healing was way weaker than WoH, hell, EVEN Patient is a better choice.

patient is more or less pretty invulnerable to interrupts, it kills any sort of pressure. spamming patient (not on recharge before any of you try to make dumb smartass comments) will do as good as good protting + zb did back then. then you still got WoH, as second HUGE heal (hardly comparable with Mend Condition).

rof was another nice prot, although i never really liked it. and i would hardly consider them "backup" heals, as it depended on the situation. and if you still compare them as backup heal to patient, i have to lol. again; disruption, usage, situation.

hex control back then was weaker, next to that you had to prot and take care off conditions without blowing your energy.

are you REALLY comparing WoH to ZB? I'll go that far and say that ANY retard can run a WoH monk now. back then when ZB was still alright, you could notice huge differences. people already ran WoH, but it was still weaker than a really well played ZB.

now, Foul Feast of course is an issue, but eh, let's not get into that.

so Jace, on paper the bars were not very different .. but there's such a huge difference you don't seem to grasp. Spotless is another dumb thing too, it's just a cast and be done with it, just like FF is "let someone else do the job".

and next to that, people EVEN bring emp on their rangers. and you really think the monk bars don't fail? if it needs foulfeast or even emp?

Teh Jace · Aug 27, 2008, 12:32 PM // 12:32

@moko No these 2 bars are not different at all. U are forgetting the fact during ZB times there was no wounding strike, no conjure stacking, no barbed spear for 2 adren causing ever lasting bleeding, weaker hexes like empathy or even VoR, no magebane (NO MAGEBANE, u just activate ur stance and there u go... ZB in safety mode)... also back in time it was returning 10e not 7e and was even more imba) and I could go on. The damage output was a lot weaker than it is now.

Im talking about mechanics, u are talking about numbers.

Also spotless was imba cuz it was bugged. Right now it's a pretty shitty hex removal and I wouldn't even run it.

Whats wrong with emp on ranger? Its basically a purge signet (which every ranger had) in disguise. And it is not spammable.

(yeah Im at work and rly bored

)

moko · Aug 27, 2008, 02:04 PM // 14:04

^i know that powercreep caused the change of bars. that's why when people suggest the old monk bars, they also want to change offense. else the old monk bars won't return.

and yes, mechanics might be the same, but the numbers are what it's at. :P

spotless is still pretty nice for TA tho. it might fail vs good necros (that iwll removeit) but at least it needs some sort of skill to be countered. :P (although vig spirit is an awesome cover)

and i got nothing against emp, i think it's overkill, but it gets the job done in a balanced way, it just forces the other defensive stuff i don't like (lightning reflex, etc

)

Orange Milk · Aug 27, 2008, 02:16 PM // 14:16

Since your at work bored, google "Shetland Pony" you'll find out they are very small horses, with big asses.

urania · Aug 27, 2008, 03:03 PM // 15:03

at moko, the hex removal in the times of ZB wasnt THAT much worse than it is now...at least my team ran 2 purges (though, 1 purge was more common) and a veil on a regular basis.

Barkeep · Aug 27, 2008, 04:05 PM // 16:05

I agree with eden

FF is overpowered, and the current monkbars are just spammy spam!

and karla and jace and the likes of those cannot be trusted!

Krill · Aug 27, 2008, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_deSKtructor

Dual SoM just diversion camped your necromancer, basically shutting down your only condition removal. Warrior and ranger automatically became useless (blind 24/7) and with no damage there's no way you can win the match. Instaed, if you use self condition removal on ranger and maybe on the war then you could still remove the blinds and deal some damage/shutting down the hexers.

No, there was nothing really to counter it with physicals. Mending touch on the ranger was never enough to keep clean and catch enough dom hexes and the pack hunters poison to make a difference. Plus, they could always get HCT's on the dom skills, I think diversion is around .8s HCT with 12 in fast casting, not exactly easy to hit without proper position and good ping, you could forget about a HCT shame. On top of that they would often drop diversions on people with blind removal after plague sending, so you had to double check for incoming diversion (while blind) before using it and sit there helpless another 6s if it was. Antidote signet on the warrior was the same story.

Anyway this doesn't even begin to address Izzy's idiotic propensity for making new problems with skill updates rather than fixing old ones. So you can count on FF never being nerfed and every elite hex that's bad being buffed into a button smash winner, i.e. these monk bars are never going away.

urania · Aug 27, 2008, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barkeep

and karla and jace and the likes of those cannot be trusted!

love you too

the_deSKtructor · Aug 27, 2008, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by arienrhode

No, there was nothing really to counter it with physicals. Mending touch on the ranger was never enough to keep clean and catch enough dom hexes and the pack hunters poison to make a difference.

Mending touch was still better than nothing.

Quote:

Plus, they could always get HCT's on the dom skills, I think diversion is around .8s HCT with 12 in fast casting, not exactly easy to hit without proper position and good ping, you could forget about a HCT shame. On top of that they would often drop diversions on people with blind removal after plague sending, so you had to double check for incoming diversion (while blind) before using it and sit there helpless another 6s if it was. Antidote signet on the warrior was the same story.

A diversion on a warrior/ranger means 1 less diversion on the necromancer/monk.

That said, dual SoM was an overpowered piece of c**p build and i'm glad that SoM is gone at least. What i wanted to say is that spreading the condition removal on different chars just helped to deal with those while having the necromancer doing all the condition removal job basically meant an auto-loss.

Teh Jace · Aug 27, 2008, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Squall runs 2 HC monks and 2 smiters! Avoid this guy like the plague!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

Since your at work bored, google "Shetland Pony" you'll find out they are very small horses, with big asses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tkk84j1qQAw

Hundbert · Aug 28, 2008, 11:31 PM // 23:31

If you have room guardian is nice to have.
Put it on your warrior if he is getting linebacked. If two warriors are training your necro/ele give him a guardian.

Purge is better than spotless in this current meta in my opinion.
Spotless will be removed fast vs good teams. It has a pretty obvious animation too so it's fairly easy to see.

Purge is nice because you can fake it an infinite number of times without losing energy.

I still prefer cure hex

It eats backfire, vision of regret and soulbind :P

moko · Aug 29, 2008, 11:43 AM // 11:43

but Vig Spirit is just an awesome cover.

urania · Aug 29, 2008, 02:05 PM // 14:05

yeah, its way too good.

Chaos Rofl Copter · Aug 31, 2008, 12:26 AM // 00:26

I should start using vig alot (I mean, I use it, - just not often).... I'm always forced to do a shitload of weapon swapping because of rangers spamming debil while I'm trying to heal out pressure =(

--I wonder how it would do in gvg ;o

Animate · Sep 22, 2008, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

last, but not least...purge>spotless mind for 4, very vital reasons. try guessing what they are.

corrupt ench, rip enchantment, rend enchantments, gaze of contempt, strip enchantment, backfire, shame, shatter enchantment, drain enchantment, cover hexes... ?
Though purge can be a pain in the neck faking it plenty of times without a decent line of sight cover against good rangers/mesmers who interrupt at the end of a skill, especially when your team is at critical health so you dont have time for it

and the monk bars are not half as boring as the nec bars, so there
talk about condition ping pong
the monk bars are a result of 1. anet/izzy being iway players, thus nerfing casters and in particular monks all the time while buffing physical 2. overpowered ench removal 3. overpowered interrupt rangers 4. overpowered melees 5. overpowered nec condition&mana management

take for example the monk-stomp balanced with magebane dshot debshot magehunters wail of doom and nec disenchant+defile defense
wod spamage on you, cant block, disenchant+cover ench useless, unblockable interrupt + unblockable kd = preprot useless (not to mention defile), energy drain, and whatnot... such monk stomping requires "monk fortress bars", linebacking etc

or the ta hexway, which requires a lot of hexremoval on the monk or in the team (though I still think empathic removal on non-casters is bad

, although I've always liked the skill a lot)

that monk stomp balanced, the RaO/packhunter rangers, and the hexway are both "extreme" (some might say lame), and such extreme builds require the extreme monk bars / counters

urania · Sep 22, 2008, 09:46 PM // 21:46

my reasons were that purge is
1)e management
2)removes ALL hexes AND cond stacks in one hit
3)is self-targetable
4)cannot be removed

other reasons would be that its fakeable...
but now i rather use deny hexes anyway.

Kurt · Sep 27, 2008, 08:46 PM // 20:46

You complain about monk bars but aint they mostly a way to try to survive lame meta stuff ?

Hundbert · Sep 29, 2008, 03:16 PM // 15:16

The only thing i think is really annoying in ta is the hexway build.

I don't see why this game needs all these on hit hexes. They belong in pve imo.
And hexes that have retarded recharge times like soul bind yet with a long duration.