Curse

Kyp Jade · Sep 08, 2008, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

first off, nice attempt at trolling, second, that statement alone shows what you know about pvp. also, you claim everything is broken?

-General levels of damage from spells, or physicals (sins and dervs)
-Shorter cast times or higher damage spells
-Hard interupts with fast recharges (PD, magebane)
-Passive Defense all around (this one is actually worse than before)
-Easy access to enchantment hate
-Unstrippable prots (weapons)
-Easy to use AoE
-Both hexes and hex removal, but its fine atm because niether will ever use other than stuff water eles with the way things are today.
-Monking power
-more stuff, im to lazy

if everyone has something powerful to bring to the table (which they do), how can it be "broken" if all the classes are of equal "broken-ness"? if WoD is one thing considered "broken", but WoH is also "broken", but is countered by "broken" PI, wtf is your point when they all balance out by being counters for each other?? I dont see how MBane is any more "broken" than WoD, or how RC is more "broken" than WS, when RC fixes "broken" WS. Just so much whining for a game.. *gasp* changed from its original state THREE YEARS AGO. People aren't looking to play the same MMO with the same balance and SAME META as it had 3 years ago. WoW is dramatically different now, EQ is dramatically different now, etc. Starcraft, Warcraft, none of these have ANYTHING to do with how an MMO operates as well.

Troll post #2, ill get banned soon at this rate

In prophecies, the meta was not stale, this was because builds were not buildwared for the most part. You built around a tactic. You see the bullets i posted. Ill grab them again.

-General levels of damage from spells, or physicals (sins and dervs)
-Shorter cast times or higher damage spells
-Hard interupts with fast recharges (PD, magebane)
-Passive Defense all around (this one is actually worse than before)
-Easy access to enchantment hate
-Unstrippable prots (weapons)
-Easy to use AoE
-Both hexes and hex removal, but its fine atm because niether will ever use other than stuff water eles with the way things are today.
-Monking power
-more stuff, im to lazy

Ignore monking power, because that was seperate from the team build. Then, when you grabbed something, like easy to use aoe, you sacrificed something else. You had to be picky with what you brought to the table. Look at War Machines build from way back. 4 W, 2 R, 2 Mo. They went purely offensive, sacrificing ALL of thier defense except for crip shot.

Look at today, you can get just as much killpower, but you dont have to sacrifice nearly as much of the other things. That leaves lots of room for you to add defense, aoe, an extra hex remove. Whatever.

Look at HA. Every single balance build is the same thing right now. Grab all the situational iwin buttons you need in HoH. Song of Conc, Weapon of warding. Aura of Stability, etc etc etc. After that, add x parts damage, y parts defense, and a PD mesmer if you feel like it.

Were the game balanced, you would have to sacrifice one or the other to have room to take one or two. Too bad for us, they decided to buff all of the options I listed, so that its easy to get those options by only slotting a few skills, leaving room to take not only more of other options, but even room for the iwins. (if you hadnt picked it up from my tone yet, it used to be hard to find ways to slot all kinds of stuff like that)

Magikarp · Sep 08, 2008, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

Troll post #2, ill get banned soon at this rate

In prophecies, the meta was not stale, this was because builds were not buildwared for the most part. You built around a tactic. You see the bullets i posted. Ill grab them again.

-General levels of damage from spells, or physicals (sins and dervs)
-Shorter cast times or higher damage spells
-Hard interupts with fast recharges (PD, magebane)
-Passive Defense all around (this one is actually worse than before)
-Easy access to enchantment hate
-Unstrippable prots (weapons)
-Easy to use AoE
-Both hexes and hex removal, but its fine atm because niether will ever use other than stuff water eles with the way things are today.
-Monking power
-more stuff, im to lazy

Ignore monking power, because that was seperate from the team build. Then, when you grabbed something, like easy to use aoe, you sacrificed something else. You had to be picky with what you brought to the table. Look at War Machines build from way back. 4 W, 2 R, 2 Mo. They went purely offensive, sacrificing ALL of thier defense except for crip shot.

Look at today, you can get just as much killpower, but you dont have to sacrifice nearly as much of the other things. That leaves lots of room for you to add defense, aoe, an extra hex remove. Whatever.

Look at HA. Every single balance build is the same thing right now. Grab all the situational iwin buttons you need in HoH. Song of Conc, Weapon of warding. Aura of Stability, etc etc etc. After that, add x parts damage, y parts defense, and a PD mesmer if you feel like it.

Were the game balanced, you would have to sacrifice one or the other to have room to take one or two. Too bad for us, they decided to buff all of the options I listed, so that its easy to get those options by only slotting a few skills, leaving room to take not only more of other options, but even room for the iwins. (if you hadnt picked it up from my tone yet, it used to be hard to find ways to slot all kinds of stuff like that)

Passive defense is nearly dead (DA, Aegis), and the only weapon spell of any real danger is WoW. You use Warmachine as your example saying full out offensive tactics were "balanced" because they lost defense? 2 monks is losing defense? what do you think most of our build are now? Back then they also had Boon monks that were OoB'ing left and right before boon was shot, healing for mad points with a 12-10 split and nearly no drawbacks minus OoB (if you could call it a drawback then), and the rest barely mattered so long as it killed stuff. How is that different from say a full out build like Triple Warrior or Offensive Balanced? 2 monks (granted possibly monk runner), and the rest is phys (minus a mes). Just because the "iwins" back then were things like boon and gale, doesnt mean todays "iwins" are are different (like WoH and WoD), and not to mention that things like Evis and PBlock still carry over to this day.

Things change, idk why its so hard for a lot of you to just accept that and either move on in terms of games, or just deal with it and play the game to be better than the cookie cutters.

Teh Jace · Sep 08, 2008, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Seems like all trolls are in TAM now.

Tyla · Sep 08, 2008, 06:44 PM // 18:44

All I can say right now is /Sigh.

DutchSmurf · Sep 08, 2008, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

Passive defense is nearly dead (DA, Aegis), and the only weapon spell of any real danger is WoW. You use Warmachine as your example saying full out offensive tactics were "balanced" because they lost defense? 2 monks is losing defense? what do you think most of our build are now? Back then they also had Boon monks that were OoB'ing left and right before boon was shot, healing for mad points with a 12-10 split and nearly no drawbacks minus OoB (if you could call it a drawback then), and the rest barely mattered so long as it killed stuff. How is that different from say a full out build like Triple Warrior or Offensive Balanced? 2 monks (granted possibly monk runner), and the rest is phys (minus a mes). Just because the "iwins" back then were things like boon and gale, doesnt mean todays "iwins" are are different (like WoH and WoD), and not to mention that things like Evis and PBlock still carry over to this day.

Things change, idk why its so hard for a lot of you to just accept that and either move on in terms of games, or just deal with it and play the game to be better than the cookie cutters.

If you don't see the difference between WM's build and the current situation, you just shouldn't bother posting. If you don't see how WM sacrificed defense for more offensive, then I just don't know what to say.
The boon monks were strong, but not that strong that they could survive easily on their own. The current monk builds are probably far stronger then boon ever was. Why do you think everyone was running a HP/Bflash spamming ele? I'm really starting to wonder if you even played during those times. Looking at your join date and at the comments you have made, I don't think you were. Which would explain your 'odd' posts.

Anyway, for the sake of everyone's health around here. Can a mod either lock this thread or do some major cleaning?

urania · Sep 08, 2008, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoogi

Pets have a dumb AI, they are hard to control, they are easy to kite, they take up 2 spots in your skillbar just in order to have them, pet attacks don't stack in the queue line, if pet doesnt attack in 10 seconds then the attack skill is cancelled, they must have movement and attack speed boosts in order to be effective (taking up more skill slots),if they die your skills get disabled, if you die they do nothing productive, and finally, Enraged Lunge requires 3 recharging skills beast mastery skills, so you either take tiger's fury that puts charm and comfort into recharge but doesn't help you at all, or bring feral + run as one + otyugh, resulting in 6 (!!) taken skill slots, only for one attack skill, that is indeed 100+dmg and unblockable and 5 sec recharge, but it doesn't worth 6 skills slots. You take a res sig and you are left with 1 skill slot.

Now, let's compare that to a real warrior. hmm.

well yes, the point is u have a series of spammable skills on recharge al the time so u can pump up ur elite on recharge. wtf more do u want? im sure it takes incredibly skillful play and awesome positioning of urself *cough cough*

and for ur info, it outdamages a warrior anytime

.

at shinde, go play tetris.

moriz · Sep 08, 2008, 08:40 PM // 20:40

actually, monk backlines these days are generally not balanced. as in, the two monks do not share protting/healing equally. the general backline template is a hybrid monk (usually a woh monk) and a prot monk (usually RC). this is necessary, because the gradual powercreep means that players are forced to dedicate a monk to pure prot in order to keep the additional power at bay.

this generally means that it's more difficult to split the monks. while the WoH monk can split off, this means that the main team have very poor healing. this is why you see so little 4-4 dedicated splits these days. instead, the monks only split if you want to base defend while doing a full push with your main team. since your opponents' damage is mostly in your base, a prot monk can keep the team up while pushing.

DreamWind · Sep 08, 2008, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

Starcraft is a strategy game.. so.. whats your point? Also.. "The game is UNFUN in comparison to previous metas" is called an opinion.

Starcraft, Warcraft, none of these have ANYTHING to do with how an MMO operates as well.

It has everything to do with it. My point is that real games never die, especially competitive ones. People like me believe that Guild Wars had the potential to be one of those games that never died. It was not a typical MMO years ago. It is nowadays though because people who think like you took over the game (IE "every game dies thats just how it works"). The idea that "every game dies" is from people who have no freaking idea how good games should work and quite frankly probably never understood how good this game really was.

The game today is an abomination of what it once was. Ask any respectable player who has quit this game over the years. You can't even talk about balancing skills anymore. This thread is a waste of time. You have to fix the entire core structure of the game before you can go anywhere near the skills, and Guild Wars 2 will almost assuredly prevent the game from ever being fixed again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

yes the meta is stale, yes there are messed up skills, yes there has been a million powercreeps, but thats how MMOs work

Power creep kills games. Are you saying companies should expect their games to die because of the power creep they themselves add to it? Sounds like bad practice to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

Things change, idk why its so hard for a lot of you to just accept that and either move on in terms of games, or just deal with it and play the game to be better than the cookie cutters.

A lot of people have simply done the bolded, and I can't blame any of them.

Magikarp · Sep 08, 2008, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

If you don't see the difference between WM's build and the current situation, you just shouldn't bother posting. If you don't see how WM sacrificed defense for more offensive, then I just don't know what to say.
The boon monks were strong, but not that strong that they could survive easily on their own. The current monk builds are probably far stronger then boon ever was. Why do you think everyone was running a HP/Bflash spamming ele? I'm really starting to wonder if you even played during those times. Looking at your join date and at the comments you have made, I don't think you were. Which would explain your 'odd' posts.

Anyway, for the sake of everyone's health around here. Can a mod either lock this thread or do some major cleaning?

also the most powerful thing on the field was shock axe at the time boon monk existed, so whats your point? monk HAVE to be stronger now because there are more powerful things out there. its a powercreep, yes, but balance within that for now.

so many people just want to flame me simply because they cant get their way, and 2 years ago anet decided to blow their little dreams to pieces. its a game, they want money, they need to please newcomers FIRST to have profit NOW to make money LATER.

am i agreeing that there is a massive problem in gws pvp: YES
am i agreeing that there is a massive powercreep still stemming from NF: YES
am i saying that i like it: NO
am i making whine threads about things that will never be looked at by anet: NO

you flammers are nothing but immature kids wanting to look cool because you can call someone a name, or dismiss an argument because you have no actual evidence to back up your claims. If you have had a personal nightmare with some of these skills like *ooooh* critical defense, then fine, sorry, but thats still your opinion, just like i've YET to face FF, CD, or a multitude of the skills listed by the OP other than those i listed with any difficulty out of the norm.

most of you calling me or my guild (which has NOTHING to do with what i do or say, so leave THEM out of this) a troll, also obviously dont even know what the term means, seeing as most of those people are the ones leaving 3 word comments rather than making an actual input to the topic.

grow up kids.

Reverend Dr · Sep 08, 2008, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

Things change, idk why its so hard for a lot of you to just accept that and either move on in terms of games

'Love it or leave it' is a false delimma. As in, initially it appears that there are two options and two options exclusively. However, this is not the case; indeed you contradicted your statement before it was even stated. "Things change." Things change, and things will continue to change. Since things are going to continue to change we do not have to 'just accept it' or 'just leave' we have another, more important option: change things. This is what most of us want, change; simply because most of us want to change things to something that resembled the past, does not mean we are opposed to change, or failing to deal with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

am i agreeing that there is a massive problem in gws pvp: YES
am i agreeing that there is a massive powercreep still stemming from NF: YES
am i saying that i like it: NO
am i making whine threads about things that will never be looked at by anet: NO

Backtract more, answered in order

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

but for now, i dont feel like theres a whole lot standing out really crushing the meta.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

i feel like we should focus on less nerfing, and possibly more reworking/buffing,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

Personally, i like the meta right now

Quote:

Originally Posted by theads by Magikarp

Maybe not whine threads, but certainly 'will never be looked at by anet.'

Kyp Jade · Sep 08, 2008, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Reverend gets the kill...

Im always too lazy to shove peoples words back down thier mouth, too much energy

Magikarp · Sep 08, 2008, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

'Love it or leave it' is a false delimma. As in, initially it appears that there are two options and two options exclusively. However, this is not the case; indeed you contradicted your statement before it was even stated. "Things change." Things change, and things will continue to change. Since things are going to continue to change we do not have to 'just accept it' or 'just leave' we have another, more important option: change things. This is what most of us want, change; simply because most of us want to change things to something that resembled the past, does not mean we are opposed to change, or failing to deal with it.

Backtract more, answered in order

what are you trying to prove? how much of a jerk you are? you link to my previous post like theres something wrong with them, then you quote something that was my personal opinion and claim i'm "backtracking"? I LIKE THE GAME TYVM, sorry if thats hard for you to understand. not everyone is you, surprise!, and more importantly, the state of the game and the meta of pvp arent always the same thing, so again, gj looking like a jerk. i said i feel the game needs some serious fixing, did i say i want nerfs? no, i didnt, i said i want MORE skills to choose from, which if you read more rather than flame, you could have known that from the start.

LifesRestorer · Sep 08, 2008, 11:16 PM // 23:16

ya but kyp your posts are so RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing long. make more summaries cause im lazier than you.

Seraphim of Chaos · Sep 09, 2008, 12:11 AM // 00:11

Nerf stuff. Buffing stuff just so PvE kids can get an e-peen hemorrhage over how big their numbers are is bad.

W I C K E D · Sep 09, 2008, 01:32 AM // 01:32

i can hardly believe magikarp got pwnd and didnt even noticed it

moko · Sep 09, 2008, 05:08 AM // 05:08

i'm not really in the mood to clean up your trash so just stop the stupidity now, please.

shoogi · Sep 09, 2008, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

well yes, the point is u have a series of spammable skills on recharge al the time so u can pump up ur elite on recharge. wtf more do u want? im sure it takes incredibly skillful play and awesome positioning of urself *cough cough*

Enraged lunge takes up 5-6 skill slots, and in return gives an unblockable 110~ damage once in 5 seconds. Any other class can accomplish a hell lot more with 5-6 skill slots. Add to that all the pets' weaknesses listed in my original post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

and for ur info, it outdamages a warrior anytime

.

Beastmasters having a higher average at the master of damage doesn't mean that they are more effective than warriors at being frontlines.

Look, you obviously seem to miss some basic insights in Guild Wars gameplay. I suggest you read the OP in the thread "Why Nuking Sucks", where it is explained very well why a frontline's role is a lot more than raw damage. There is a reason why Beastmasters aren't used in any serious pvp. I don't see any point to continue this discussion, this thread is about real balance issues (though it fails at that too).

Ec]-[oMaN · Sep 09, 2008, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoogi

this thread is about real balance issues (though it fails at that too).

Balance issues in the smaller formats, adding to that, how much hate do pets get and how much hate do warriors get in smallers arenas, ya I thought so. Anyhow anyone opposed of the changes in the initial post of this thread are simply trolling or just dumb.

urania · Sep 10, 2008, 07:16 AM // 07:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoogi

Enraged lunge takes up 5-6 skill slots, and in return gives an unblockable 110~ damage once in 5 seconds. Any other class can accomplish a hell lot more with 5-6 skill slots. Add to that all the pets' weaknesses listed in my original post.

Beastmasters having a higher average at the master of damage doesn't mean that they are more effective than warriors at being frontlines.

Look, you obviously seem to miss some basic insights in Guild Wars gameplay.

and you obviously never played against a beastmaster team. they might not be able to spike, but they have no need for that with their damage output.
im not saying they're overpowered because id lose to them (which i dont), but because their dps is crazy in comparison to, for example, warriors' dps, be it hammer or axe. and since guardian and block stances are useless, the only thing that keeps u alive is crazy woh spam on recharge.

Krill · Sep 10, 2008, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoogi

Enraged lunge takes up 5-6 skill slots, and in return gives an unblockable 110~ damage once in 5 seconds. Any other class can accomplish a hell lot more with 5-6 skill slots. Add to that all the pets' weaknesses listed in my original post.

It doesn't take up that many spots if you just count the recharging skills. Like Blades of Steel, the skill itself counts as recharging so all you need for it to work decently is two other recharging skills, usually Otyugh's Cry and Call of Haste.

Anyway, as urania mentioned it sounds like you're arguing this from a theoretical perspective rather than having played a dual beastmaster team in TA. On paper the builds looks like shit but the mechanics of a beastmaster, the way pet attacks function, force multiplication and the ability to rez pets for virtually no penalty can make them incredibly annoying and it's totally unnecessary garbage. I apologize in advance if any gold trim guilds were planning to run some Otyugh's Cry beastmasters in the next mAT, I know killing the skill would really hamper your ability to surprise teams with never seen before builds.