Curse

Phe Belladona · Dec 31, 2008, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

I'm not sure they do it at all, except by AoE interrupting something else. This needs further testing rather that basing it on "omg my RoF got interrupted 3 times nerf heroes!"

As for 3/4 activation time, it's not that hard for a human to interrupt it, so a bot shouldn't have any problems with that either.

absolutely crazy to think that all the 1/4 sec spell interupts are just random hits from tease's aoe effect, i use Cry as much as possible every game and rarely hit 1/4 secs with the aoe. the shear consistancy that 1/4secs get interupted MUST outweigh the random chance of activating tease on another target in the area within 1/4s of the monk choosing to use the skill.

TheLordOfBlah · Jan 01, 2009, 05:02 AM // 05:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by bursta91

Sure human players can PD/Cry guardian or channeling. some of em can even get RC. But when it comes down to heros they'll tease/p-drain Aura of Stability (1/4 of a second cast) and infuse too which is usually backed up with HB making it an 1/8 of a second cast if my calculations are correct. Which means they cast tease before you hit the skill.

Seriously, heros need to be toned down a bit on their leetness...

Heroes cannot interrupt a 1/8 second cast skill with a 1/4 second cast interrupt, they can not predict the future. They overall suck at interrupting and pick the wrong skills to interrupt. Nothing needs to be done about this.

Dmitri3 · Jan 01, 2009, 08:02 AM // 08:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phe Belladona

absolutely crazy to think that all the 1/4 sec spell interupts are just random hits from tease's aoe effect, i use Cry as much as possible every game and rarely hit 1/4 secs with the aoe. the shear consistancy that 1/4secs get interupted MUST outweigh the random chance of activating tease on another target in the area within 1/4s of the monk choosing to use the skill.

Less crazy that assuming that they can interrupt 1/4 s without testing it.

I just went in scrimmage and asked one guy to have a hero locked with interrupts on me (at 12 FC). The hero missed all interrupts on 1/4 second cast (he/she/it tried to interrupt about 1/2 of them), so interrupts basically went wasted. Interrupted quite a bit of 1 second casts, but not all of them (some just went ignored, even when interrupts were available). It missed 1 second cast 2 times even (all in shield set, so not HCT).

TheOrangeFalcon · Jan 01, 2009, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

I'm not sure they do it at all, except by AoE interrupting something else. This needs further testing rather that basing it on "omg my RoF got interrupted 3 times nerf heroes!"

As for 3/4 activation time, it's not that hard for a human to interrupt it, so a bot shouldn't have any problems with that either.

The 1/4 thing isn't about "omg rof 3x" it's that they CAN do it. It doesn't happen all that often, but I know it can happen because I've been hit by power spike/return/block on 1/4s.

And ya, 3/4 isn't that hard once someone gets used to rupting and everything, but we want people to want humans over heroes right?

Dmitri3 · Jan 01, 2009, 09:55 AM // 09:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOrangeFalcon

The 1/4 thing isn't about "omg rof 3x" it's that they CAN do it. It doesn't happen all that often, but I know it can happen because I've been hit by power spike/return/block on 1/4s.

And ya, 3/4 isn't that hard once someone gets used to rupting and everything, but we want people to want humans over heroes right?

Well, fine, if they change heroes to not try to interrupt 1/4 second casts, it'll be actually better since they won't miss/waste interrupts so much and use it on more important spells. I'd actually consider that a buff after trying to get a hero to interrupt my 1/4's today.

As for 3/4... You wouldn't want to take a warrior that isn't used to being a warrior, same goes for monk or anything else. Unless of course you're trying to teach basics to a new player (or new to pvp). But anyhow, how 3/4 is even an issue?

EDIT: Just thought about it... If you chain your 1/4's, hero will try to interrupt it anyway and possibly get the second spell. Aftercast delay would be an issue though.

Morgoth the dark · Jan 01, 2009, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLordOfBlah

Heroes cannot interrupt a 1/8 second cast skill with a 1/4 second cast interrupt, they can not predict the future. They overall suck at interrupting and pick the wrong skills to interrupt. Nothing needs to be done about this.

ye they can... they have 0 lag and FC, and they are major pain tin the a**, nerfbat is seriously needed.

TheOrangeFalcon · Jan 01, 2009, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morgoth the dark

ye they can... they have 0 lag and FC, and they are major pain tin the a**, nerfbat is seriously needed.

They would need at least 15 FC to do that, so no they can't. Because, if I'm not mistaken, 15 FC= 50% faster casts. [email protected]

Betrayer of Wind · Jan 01, 2009, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Yeah interrupts are pretty retarded on heroes,ive been hit by powerspike while casting CoP with 14FC on HM,hows that even possible?

TheOrangeFalcon · Jan 01, 2009, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betrayer of Wind

Yeah interrupts are pretty retarded on heroes,ive been hit by powerspike while casting CoP with 14FC on HM,hows that even possible?

In hard mode enemies cast about 50% faster casts on top of whatever FC level they have.

Killed u man · Jan 01, 2009, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Also, don't confuse the time you're "seeing" the skill get activated, compared to the actual activation time.

Not being too much of an expert in this, we don't know what criteria the game uses for heroes to interrupt.

When u use a skill, it goes from your client to the server. Once it arrives at the server, THEN the game knows you've actually pressed the skills, and it gets QEUED UP with whatever is going on. (Yes, qeued up, GW CAN NOT do 2 things at the same time, but can only do 1 thing after the other. What would happen otherwise, if 2 people were to interrupt eachother on their interrupt, besides the universe imploding)

You don't know the time of this internal lagg, and heck, you don't even know the phsycial "laws" the heroes are bound to. Heroes are KNOWN not to obbey the same rules real players are. Heroes used to be able to drop weapon spells at any given time, they can still move and cast skills at the same time (Happens on the rare occasion, but it definatly does), they sometimes manage to finish a spell after they died, etc...

With all of this in mind, even tough I don't have physical evidence of all of it, I find it hard to believe that it's just random "bad luck" that our HB infuser, without getting HB stripped (he's a guildie, and he didn't call getting it stripped, nor did his 1 sec heal parties show it did) gets interrupted on Infuse Health on average about 1-2 times a run, with a record of 2 times in 1 match. Sure, Teases are flying around, but to see THIS many people are crying about it, and then assume it's just bad luck, you're sense of "chance" is way out of proportion.

Draikin · Jan 01, 2009, 09:42 PM // 21:42

I've done enough testing with hero skills to know I wasn't impressed with their ability to interrupt things. Hero rangers are simply bad at interrupting, and mesmer heroes are only (somewhat) consistent when interrupting 1 second casts and can in fact miss when interrupting 3/4 casts. In fact, if they interrupted my RoF it only happened because they were actually trying to interrupt the previous spell. I'll do some more testing on this although I see other people like Dmitri3 already confirmed what I posted above. Like with 3 smiter monk builds, I think people are just blaming the AI for skill balance problems.

EDIT: well it seems the AI can in fact interrupt 1/4 cast time skills. I tested this using a hero mesmer with Tease (9 fast casting, no weapon mods) and my monk casting Patient Spirit and RoF with some time in between to make sure the hero wasn't targeting a previous spell. The AI attempted to interrupt the skills around 8% of the time, and only succeeded at interrupting them around 2% of the time. For the 3/4 cast time skills it managed to interrupt 40% of them.

Dmitri3 · Jan 02, 2009, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draikin

I've done enough testing with hero skills to know I wasn't impressed with their ability to interrupt things. Hero rangers are simply bad at interrupting, and mesmer heroes are only (somewhat) consistent when interrupting 1 second casts and can in fact miss when interrupting 3/4 casts. In fact, if they interrupted my RoF it only happened because they were actually trying to interrupt the previous spell. I'll do some more testing on this although I see other people like Dmitri3 already confirmed what I posted above. Like with 3 smiter monk builds, I think people are just blaming the AI for skill balance problems.

EDIT: well it seems the AI can in fact interrupt 1/4 cast time skills. I tested this using a hero mesmer with Tease (9 fast casting, no weapon mods) and my monk casting Patient Spirit and RoF with some time in between to make sure the hero wasn't targeting a previous spell. The AI attempted to interrupt the skills around 8% of the time, and only succeeded at interrupting them around 2% of the time. For the 3/4 cast time skills it managed to interrupt 40% of them.

That's interesting. It means that AI has some kind of chance of attempting AND getting the interrupt, instead of being consistent.

I didn't get it to interrupt 1/4 s (attempted quite a bit and missed them all), but since it missed some 1 s, I suppose it isn't far fetched to state that... unless it's some other factor (like lag between servers), I doubt that however.

Stoella · Jan 02, 2009, 01:05 AM // 01:05

I've seen those teams in HA, and I saw people get interrupted. Too many people, including me, got interrupted like that. AoE interrupts arent interrupting this much.

However, I cant make them interrupt a 1/4 when I take my mesmers on the isle of the nameless. Any idea how to explain that ? A plot maybe ?

Shendaar · Jan 02, 2009, 01:17 AM // 01:17

I tested it myself and they are very inconsistent, but they do have the ability to interrupt 1/4 cast. Sometimes Gwen would not even attempt to interrupt the skills or completely miss, while sometimes she would nail ROF and Shielding Hands back to back.

That inconsistency seem to suggest that the heroes do have some sort of delay added to their reaction time. The problem is that either that rule will sometimes be completely ignored or that their minimum possible reaction time is way too low.

Draikin · Jan 02, 2009, 01:18 AM // 01:18

From what I learned, the AI basically checks to see what action it should take about every 1/2 second: basically this means it decides if it has to use a (queued) skill, auto-attack or move from its current position (there are certain exceptions to this rule when you manually order them to use a skill). So basically to interrupt those 1/4 second skills, you have to use the skill almost at the exact same moment they perform that check. If there's too much time between the moment they "see" you using the skill, they'll still execute the interrupt but it'll be too late. That's not including the other actions they might decide to take instead of using the interrupt (which might mean auto-attacking).

Stoella · Jan 02, 2009, 01:22 AM // 01:22

Ah finally, after alot of 1/4 skills cast, gwen interrupted a RoF with instability ! But it's only once. In like 60 tries. That should not be a problem, should it ?

I don't see why heroes interrupt with such ease in HA though, but they seem to do it. Someone take a vid of it, explain it to your guildies, run a HA run normally, but instead of fighting directly when you encounter such a team, ask them if you can try

There must be a code somewhere that delays interrupts, and this code is just missing from HA ? Ever tried in another form of pvp ?

TheOrangeFalcon · Jan 02, 2009, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stoella

I don't see why heroes interrupt with such ease in HA though, but they seem to do it. Someone take a vid of it, explain it to your guildies, run a HA run normally, but instead of fighting directly when you encounter such a team, ask them if you can try

There must be a code somewhere that delays interrupts, and this code is just missing from HA ? Ever tried in another form of pvp ?

I'm pretty sure that almost 99% of all 1/4 interrupts in HA come from the AoE effects. If heroes did exceptionally better as interrupters in HA than other places, it probably would have been discovered earlier. In my opinion, they're only in HA now because of Tease's update and because of people's fascination of using heroes over real people.

Dmitri3 · Jan 02, 2009, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draikin

From what I learned, the AI basically checks to see what action it should take about every 1/2 second: basically this means it decides if it has to use a (queued) skill, auto-attack or move from its current position (there are certain exceptions to this rule when you manually order them to use a skill). So basically to interrupt those 1/4 second skills, you have to use the skill almost at the exact same moment they perform that check. If there's too much time between the moment they "see" you using the skill, they'll still execute the interrupt but it'll be too late. That's not including the other actions they might decide to take instead of using the interrupt (which might mean auto-attacking).

If that is correct, it explains quite a bit.

Basically casting in this exact moment for one person is very slim. But in teams of 8 players, or even 16 (2 opposing teams), the chance increases by 8x or 16x. Add in AoE interrupt and you got a lot of people complaining about being interrupted. However, it should also increase chances of heroes wasting interrupts too, unless they prioritize skills that just started casting instead of half cast left or 3/4.

Draikin · Jan 02, 2009, 03:09 AM // 03:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

unless they prioritize skills that just started casting instead of half cast left or 3/4.

They'd also have to take the total cast time into account for that to work, so they'd have to check for the remaining cast time of all skills being activated and then pick the one with the most time left. If that's how it works then they'd be a lot less likely to miss their interrupts in an 8v8 than in a 1v1. I'll see if it's possible to verify this.

Dmitri3 · Jan 02, 2009, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draikin

They'd also have to take the total cast time into account for that to work, so they'd have to check for the remaining cast time of all skills being activated and then pick the one with the most time left. If that's how it works then they'd be a lot less likely to miss their interrupts in an 8v8 than in a 1v1. I'll see if it's possible to verify this.

Probably the easiest way to observe it would be to watch Mesmer heroes in Observer mode (HA obviously) and see if they gain energy from Power Drain and Tease.

So far I didn't have enough time to have some kind of numbers. For now though, I can say that they do miss...