Curse

Truegen · Dec 26, 2008, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Player Versus Player (PvP)
...I'm sorry, but I must have missed the memo that said "Heroes, which are NPC's, are players." Really? I'd like to PM them and discuss strategy or make a build with them sometime, seeing as how they're real players

I like to think I'm a tolerant man, but I've officially had it. With the most recent development of an overpowered Palm Strike KD-chain (4 second recharge unblockable cripple spam go go go), Smiteway has become the 8/10 build ran by HA PUG and Guild groups alike. Now here's the kicker...the build consists of 2 pure smiter monk HEROES. Why? Because people understand now that hero AI > majority of human players

Smiteway isn't even my biggest concern...what has been extremely frustrating to me lately is the new Teaseway, which combines 2 mesmer HEROES, a me/n tease and a leet me/rt (or sometimes 2 me/rt) weaponer that seems to be able to get the right weapon on the right player juuuuuuuuuuuust as your caller says "1". I may not know every HA'er in the game, but I'm pretty sure only a handful of mesmers are actually capable of spamming weapons immediately and gaining energy as good as heroes

So what does this teach us? The fact that Anet still allows heroes into HA?
1. "PvP" couldn't mean less; it's not so much player vs. player as it is player vs. anyone who can click and add heroes
2. Heroes are overall better players than a majority of the people actually IN HA. Why do you think there are so many groups out there that use 2 heroes? Does that concern anyone else but me? If people have come to a consensus that they will bring 2 heroes every time instead of people, then heroes are way too good (and players are way too bad)
3. Heroes are NOT people. Heroes are NOT people. Heroes are NOT people. I want to spam this more but I'm just wasting space at this point
4. I'm sick of AI. Computers can always tell what a person will do the moment they activate their skill, because they're part of the same freakin programming that the game is made of
5. Heroes aren't being used for people to make groups when they would normally not have other people to team up with. It wasn't even a good idea back when you guys were trying to be Good Samaritans by adding allies for people to pick up and go. THAT'S WHY WE HAVE PUGS IN THE FIRST PLACE. Heroes were designed for PvE because it's a lot harder to find a competent group of players with the same goal as you in PvE than it is in PvP. If you go into HA, you're going to find people who want to HA. Heroes are not a backup anymore, they've become a staple of builds; they've become so important to people's builds that they couldn't function within their own builds without them, or with a human backup

Remove heroes please, I can't take it anymore. It's ridiculous that they've lasted this long in a human-based battle structure. It makes no logical sense to me whatsoever

I've HA'd for 2+ years...I've seen meta's from Blood Spike to Sway (both thumpers and scythes) to Zergway (IWAY's NF revival) come and go, and haven't said anything until now. I hope that counts for something.

Oh yeah, and Merry Christmas

Forgotton200 · Dec 26, 2008, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truegen

Oh yeah, and Merry Christmas

Merry Christmas bro.

Martin Alvito · Dec 26, 2008, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truegen

With the most recent development of an overpowered Palm Strike KD-chain (4 second recharge unblockable cripple spam go go go)

I think this is at the heart of the problem. I remain confused as to how this could possibly have been construed as a skill "balance".

Heroes are a separate issue entirely. The degradation of skill in the player base has been going on for some time now; the fact that heroes are superior to most players is still more a comment on player skill than anything else.

Antares Ascending · Dec 26, 2008, 01:12 AM // 01:12

All in how ya look at it. Hero's allow people who don't want to get tooo involved in any pvp to do so. That also helps people who can't get into a pug cause they ain't 'leet' enough. Personaly, I'd rather go up against a hero than a mid-decent real person.

edit. Yes, NPC Mesmers are quicker than a human player will ever be but a decent team of real people have a HUGE advantage over a hero team

Truegen · Dec 26, 2008, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antares Ascending

All in how ya look at it. Hero's allow people who don't want to get tooo involved in any pvp to do so. That also helps people who can't get into a pug cause they ain't 'leet' enough. Personaly, I'd rather go up against a hero than a mid-decent real person.

edit. Yes, NPC Mesmers are quicker than a human player will ever be but a decent team of real people have a HUGE advantage over a hero team

First Paragraph: Yeah I agree that heroes used to serve that purpose entirely, but that's no longer the case. Now they're used to replace people entirely because the bars can't be run as good by humans

Second Paragraph: I would argue that it takes more than a decent team of players to have a huge advantage over heroes...a quickly-placed weapon of shadow by a hero on a spike target will shut down a majority of spikes (w/ a melee frontline) no matter HOW good you are

Gift3d · Dec 26, 2008, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truegen

First Paragraph: Yeah I agree that heroes used to serve that purpose entirely, but that's no longer the case. Now they're used to replace people entirely because the bars can't be run as good by humans

Second Paragraph: I would argue that it takes more than a decent team of players to have a huge advantage over heroes...a quickly-placed weapon of shadow by a hero on a spike target will shut down a majority of spikes (w/ a melee frontline) no matter HOW good you are

iiiii wouldn't say they can replace people entirely. i mean. right now i'm in a ha group playing a me/rt tease and i'm able to cry every spike, every ward on zaishen, so there are pros and cons to having humans play the bar.

cons, i can't prot things as soon as more than 1 person targets before even attacking, and i can't tease patient spirits. overall i'd totally agree that the palm strike/tease/smite hero shit needs some major adjusting.

Seraphim of Chaos · Dec 26, 2008, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Heroes are so hard to bull's.

(((((

Bowstring Badass · Dec 26, 2008, 04:02 AM // 04:02

I heard mindless jobs were given to heroes? >.> Honestly would you stick someone on a tainted necro if you have 6 people?

Honestly lets face it HA is dead move it back to 6v6 have it so you can take as many henchman/heroes as you want and just go... That way I don't have to find idiot PuGs who cant spam 123.

Skyros · Dec 26, 2008, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truegen

Player Versus Player (PvP)
Can't take it anymore...

*hands you gun with one bullet*

you know what you gotta do, champ.

_Nihilist_ · Dec 26, 2008, 08:23 AM // 08:23

Heroes should have one place in PvP - Hero Battles.

Other than that, they aren't a Player. They are AI.

/signed

... and have a wonderful Christmahannakwanzayuladan.

valence · Dec 26, 2008, 08:43 AM // 08:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyros

*hands you gun with one bullet*

you know what you gotta do, champ.

point at you and fire ^^

Sadchaos · Dec 26, 2008, 03:35 PM // 15:35

At the risk of sounding like a smart ass, Palm Strike CAN be blocked by "Can't Touch This!"

but overall I agree. I think that having heroes should be a disadvantage, because you can't find real people you have to resort to NPCs. They shouldn't be able to interrupt 3/4th casts, they shouldn't be able to somehow find out who your caller is targeting and they should be overall not as smart as the average player.

Monk Gsb · Dec 26, 2008, 04:01 PM // 16:01

imagination has gone... (tbh it went when ppl were QQing about R/D's but meh)

list skills that make the smiteway build.
list skills that counter said build.
(take out shit skills from counter skills)
make a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing counter build that can kill things.
test.
find problems where your team fails ( problems with the build NOT THE PLAYERS)
test.
fix any final problems.
test.
rickroll all teams you find and then QQ less.

but you wont do that cause ha is ha, and people are to lazy that they just want to follow meta counter builds.

and if u wanna get a build going, i have 1 word for you

BLOCK !!!!!!!!1111!!1!one

Killed u man · Dec 26, 2008, 04:48 PM // 16:48

^

Ok, but then you can say a 1.000.000 damage spike build isn't OP, because you can bring 8 Migraine mesmers to shut every spiker down.

It's not a question of CAN I COUNTER IT? It's a question of: Can I counter it, and can I still be competitive against other builds, and or in HoH?

The same reaspn Rspike is redicilously OP, Heroway is just as OP.

This reason is 2 things:

Interrupts. The thing that is supposed to "balance" this game, alos throws it off-balance when it's used on the side of the already imbalanced team.
Rspike can INTERRUPT every hard-skill counter, making it near impossible to beat with conventional build-wars. You're pretty much forced to bring either 2-3 FC eles, 10 mesmers with CoF or 20 Aegises in order to just STAY ALIVE with a factor of guarantee against it. I won't even start on what is needed to take down the walls of an Rspike, higher than those of a ritspike.

Skill with "no downside", no counterskills. Another thing is the Smite Conditions and Smite Hexes. Whereas they don't look so overpowered, they fuel themselves in battle. Yes, you could run 4 migraines, 2 monks and 2 warrios. But the smite hexes combined with hero AI, will simple have those backfire at you. You can shut the sins down (blind, weakness, hexes), but you'll only end up pressuring yourself more with the dual Smite Hex/Condition combo.
Rit Weapons are already overpowered as fcuk (It's the ONLY thing that can make or break an rspike, says enough), imagine them on a FC hero with near infinite energy...

Monk GSB, it's obvious you don't play serious HA, or atleast not a real build every now and then. If you do, you'd realize that running into battle with enraging charge, spearing a random guy to benefit the adrnenaline gain, and then watching a hero GET WEAPON OF WARDING OF BEFORE THE SPEAR EVEN HITS THE GUY, well, then you know Izzy is doing it wrong.

I HATE current heroway. Even tough we barely loose to it with our Dual Warrior balanced, IF THEY WANT TO, WE WILL NEVER WIN. The usualy set up is 4 healers (Me/Rt's or Smiters or combination), and Earth ele, and then 2 frontline + fire ele.
They got 3 offensive characters, and 5 defensive ones. On top of that, 2 of those defensive ones, can only be insane pressure, as heroes are known to simply interrupt Infuse Health, Spirit Bond, RoF and Patient Spirit. Let alone Channeling, any kind of midline defence you have (earth ele) and so on.

You CAN'T build wars a heroway, and when you DO manage to find a build that's somewhat succesfull against it, well you'll find yourself running something just as lame and OP, aswell as boring, to run as those heroways.

It's the same problem as with Rspike, Insane walls of defence, with interrupts to counter any counter, and then the enemy team will eventually collapse under pressure/spikes.

I'm not holding my heart for this heroway, I'm holding it for when this gets nerfed, and Rspike becomes meta again. Because ow boy, how it is fun to have half your skill bar dshotted, whilst at the same time hitting at stuff with Vital Weapon, 3 Monks, a Paragon and block stances.

God bless guild wa... Whoops Build Wars...

Monk Gsb · Dec 26, 2008, 06:40 PM // 18:40

like i said, no imagination.

RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing hell dude, not being funny but just do somthing else with your life if your getting pissed off like that and you can do somthing about it (aka counter it) then just stop playing and PLEASE stop posting.

Loot Junkie · Dec 26, 2008, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Truegen and Borat, I have to agree wholeheartedly. The crowd I've been HAing with recently has a pretty quick spike cycle, seems like we crank a spike out every 6 seconds and yet over 50% of my casts get interrupted by heroes with Tease or powerdrain. While I have always objected to heroes being allowed in HA, I wouldnt mind it so much if Tease did not have the functionality that it has now. The argument that "there's a counter to any build" does not account for the fact that your build has to be viable on RR/KotH/altar caps. I thought the goal was to get to and be competitive in HoH matches, not farm fame from the first few maps.

Bloodseeker · Dec 26, 2008, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

I HATE current heroway

You hate it so much but still you play it as well, you are part of this problem.

Killed u man · Dec 26, 2008, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bloodseeker

You hate it so much but still you play it as well, you are part of this problem.

There's a few things you forget to mention:

I don't have 5 defensive characters. EVERY heroway you face has 2 Monks, 2 Smiters (Me/Rt's), an Earth ele, and usually 2 Sins/warriors backlining.

My Heroway:

1) Is original, I'm running a W/A with daggers
2) We got a Mo/W with BB and Hammerbash
3) We only got 1 Monk, and 2 Rt/Me healers, a huge difference with the Me/Rt's

Yes, I run heroway, but the main issue is that heroway simply is so overpowered, I'm either forced to run heroway, or Balanced when enough guildies are online.

If I want to HA, and noone is online, I can't pug people for a real build, because HA pugs suck, cliche but it's the truth. The ONLY pug I think is worth getting on your team is Reaper. He pugged all of his rank, and people trash him alot, but he's by far one of the best pugs you can get.
So once he is one my team, and I'm not 8/8, I'm effed. So I might as well run hway, because I won't get 2 more people anyways.

The motivation for these herowayers is different tough;

1) They're PvE'ers who wiki'd the build
2) They're experience HA'ers who suck to much to run a real build
3) They're bad PvP'ers hiding behind the excuse they're just having fun

Either way, I would LOVE to see heroes get removed from PvP alltogether. These people, well their fame DEPENDS on heroway, or some other buttonbash gimmick...

tyrant rex · Dec 27, 2008, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

their fame DEPENDS on heroway, or some other buttonbash gimmick...

pot ,meet kettle

Truegen · Dec 27, 2008, 02:09 AM // 02:09

GSB you're missing the point entirely, at the cost of sounding like a know-it-all guy with an answer for everything...and it's saddening me

This post is in no way saying "QQ Smiteway and Teaseway can't be beat", it's saying Heroes are too good in comparison to the level of talent that HA pugs have overall. I don't care if most pugs suck, or if most pugs are godly, because the level will always change...what I'm saying, is that heroes should NEVER, EVER be better than a player you can pick up in a district. Unfortunately, they are, and as such they are becoming preferred over real players as smiter monks and resto mesmers

To me, that = baaaaaadddddd

HA shouldn't be about "make a build that counters smiteway and go go go farm first 3 maps", it should be about "how can I make it to HoH and win". If I followed your backwards strategy I'd just bring 6 mesmers and 2 monks all with anti-melee hexes. Oops, here comes HoH match and we have to spike down the Ghostly...GG dood