Curse

Ex Death · Jan 12, 2009, 05:07 PM // 17:07

I agree with reverting LoD to its old state. The only problem with this is that if only one copy is run on a flagger it would be quite difficult to shut down. Especially since current rit flaggers devote 2 or 3 skills to party healing currently and the old LoD would be be stronger than PwK, Recup and/or Life altogether. The flagger would still be able to have sufficient healing becuase of patient spirit and could possibly even bring a good snare (pious restraint). Compare this to the current hidden caltrops rit and it could possibly be an issue.

Primal Rage is in my opinion both a good and bad (for the game) skill, but mainly good. Bad in that it allows bad warriors to perform better than they should but good because it allows for more dynamic split play. Being able to have the option to perform split and collapse manoeuvres more effectively is far more desirable for the game compared to warrior's endurance spiking all game. With the skill people can take advantage of the enemy's positioning more effectively than ever. This to me seems far more fitting to that of a 'balanced build' because it effectively supports spike, split and pressure more than any other template without a super speed boost. The bar compression of the super speed boost is a positive element to the game because split but mainly pressure has been far more abundant in comparison to spiking over past couple of years. Despite the obvious powercreep of the skill in terms of bar compression, it enables the same effect as when warriors used to run frenzy and sprint. It only really seems overpowered in a positive way in a similar sense to dshot, and overall, I think provides a positive contribution to the game.

I would also like to see mend ailment reverted to a 3 second recharge because it was dumb killing a perfectly balanced old-school skill because of divine boon and would provide more options to non-rc monks.

Shendaar · Jan 12, 2009, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Old LoD with earshot range would probably be perfect imo. It would be very powerful, but you wouldn't be able to spam it from half-way across the map.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jan 12, 2009, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ex Death

I agree with reverting LoD to its old state. The only problem with this is that if only one copy is run on a flagger it would be quite difficult to shut down. Especially since current rit flaggers devote 2 or 3 skills to party healing currently and the old LoD would be be stronger than PwK, Recup and/or Life altogether. The flagger would still be able to have sufficient healing becuase of patient spirit and could possibly even bring a good snare (pious restraint). Compare this to the current hidden caltrops rit and it could possibly be an issue.

That's why I said make it earshot.

Quote:

Primal Rage is in my opinion both a good and bad (for the game) skill, but mainly good. Bad in that it allows bad warriors to perform better than they should but good because it allows for more dynamic split play. Being able to have the option to perform split and collapse manoeuvres more effectively is far more desirable for the game compared to warrior's endurance spiking all game. With the skill people can take advantage of the enemy's positioning more effectively than ever. This to me seems far more fitting to that of a 'balanced build' because it effectively supports spike, split and pressure more than any other template without a super speed boost. The bar compression of the super speed boost is a positive element to the game because split but mainly pressure has been far more abundant in comparison to spiking over past couple of years. Despite the obvious powercreep of the skill in terms of bar compression, it enables the same effect as when warriors used to run frenzy and sprint. It only really seems overpowered in a positive way in a similar sense to dshot, and overall, I think provides a positive contribution to the game.

It's more versatile than the traditional shock axe warrior, I don't think this is neccesarily a bad thing, but I do think the versatility can be preserved while still toning the skill down a bit, start with IMS reduction from 33% to 25%.

Quote:

I would also like to see mend ailment reverted to a 3 second recharge because it was dumb killing a perfectly balanced old-school skill because of divine boon and would provide more options to non-rc monks.

Totally unrelated to the topic, but yes, I agree.

moriz · Jan 12, 2009, 06:48 PM // 18:48

mend ailment doesn't seem to work too well with RC on the offmonk. mend ailment heals for each condition left, while RC just removes all of them. it just seems to be counterproductive.

God_Hand · Jan 12, 2009, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

skills like mending touch and natural stride are so powerful that they might as well be elites

Might I direct your attention to [Peace and Harmony] & [Escape]???

Also, you can't run [Mending Touch] on a R/W BA Turret.

1ord i3eans · Jan 13, 2009, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by minor

my 2cents on skill vs build
take a shock axe vs SP sin when

Shock axe nearly every skill requires some thought.
You can't use shock all the time.
You have to use bulls at the right time.
don't get caught in frenzy.
dchop when you see something you can interupt.
get in postion for a spikes.
and so on

Sp sin?
press1234567 hope target dies
wait until skills and energy recharges try again

sp sin was smarter to run to win but wasn't a skilled build.

edit yes it was nightfall congrats
I forgot that factions gave use the giant screwup called a rit

I think that all "Shock axe builds" should be buffed, and the "Sp sin builds" nerfed.
Even if that means that Sins and two or three other classes see no more PvP play - 'cause all the classes will always be seen in PvE, where most players are anyway.
Then the next step in balancing GW PvP, imo, would be making as many "Shock axe builds" viable as possible, and making as many different teams as viable as possible.
I have no specifics though... I'm a GW noob, lol

dies like fish · Jan 13, 2009, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Guild Wars should be reverted to when the balanced build was:

1 Chiizu
1 Farin
1 Champ
1 Paragon
1 Mesmer
1 LoD
1 RC
1 Flagger

moriz · Jan 13, 2009, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

Might I direct your attention to [Peace and Harmony] & [Escape]???

Also, you can't run [Mending Touch] on a R/W BA Turret.

PnH and escape are actual elites. in the case of escape, it is only marginally more powerful than natural stride and eats up an elite slot. PnH cannot be run on a ranger for obvious reasons.

even though you can't use mend touch on a turret, you still have the almighty dshot, so my point still stands.

of course, if you and mitch are arguing that these skills are NOT extremely powerful and what really made the old ranger template work, then it's /facepalm time for me.

You just got tomahawked · Jan 13, 2009, 02:52 AM // 02:52

spike was not an intended mechanic of the game.

Edwards · Jan 13, 2009, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

PnH and escape are actual elites. in the case of escape, it is only marginally more powerful than natural stride and eats up an elite slot. PnH cannot be run on a ranger for obvious reasons.

even though you can't use mend touch on a turret, you still have the almighty dshot, so my point still stands.

of course, if you and mitch are arguing that these skills are NOT extremely powerful and what really made the old ranger template work, then it's /facepalm time for me.

People say that dshot is arguably worthy of elite status because it would probably still see play as an elite--not in this meta of course, but in a more balanced-friendly one.

Whereas if mending touch and nat stride were made elite, they would NEVER be brought into PvP EVER. Yes, they're powerful, but they're not elite-worthy.

FoxBat · Jan 13, 2009, 03:03 AM // 03:03

Didn't ensign predict all this like a year ago when people were crying for various blockway nerfs? The answer to defense can't be "more offense" (smiteway?) The third peg missing is disruption, and the over-reliance on interrupt disruption isn't doing a thing to all those 3/4s midliners.

Krill · Jan 13, 2009, 08:17 AM // 08:17

Natty stride is one of the better non-elite skills but it's nowhere close to elite worthy. It's seriously terrible terrible as an anti-spike and protect skill stance compared to lightning reflexes, which is slightly broken stance imo. D-shot would only be elite worthy if it was unblockable, not to mention the ranger class would be worthless without it. How about making diversion an elite and seeing how well dom works?

I don't like PaH because it is so damn good on a 3 monk backline in HA and monk flaggers in GvG, being in the strange position of not being good enough to replace WoH / RC / LS but the money button against any sort of hex pressure. It's just a bad solution to overpowered passive hexes and encourages the types of builds we're talking about here so you can squeeze it in. I'm glad Izzy tries to address the problem though, I just hope he's not thinking problem solved.

Tristan lol · Jan 14, 2009, 05:43 AM // 05:43

In the OP you discussed the underlying standalone skills for the "minimalist offense" and say that they are bad for the game and that you should not be able to bring that much offense on a well-rounded bar. I didn't catch a reason why you draw these conclusions, though. I might be mistaken, but you seemed to suggest that a spike is self-evidently bad... or perhaps just too strong of a concept in the present balance.

So allow me to briefly retort. The despised "minimalist offense"--the builds loaded with defensive tools and just enough offense to squeeze out a 600-damage hit, are the last, best hope for the common man in the face of the strong. Strong defenses allow new, under-practiced, and poor players reprieve from their mistakes. These players can lean on each other for the build's success in a minimalist team, when there are redundant defensive roles checking a superior enemy's tactics. And the spike is a test of enemy defenses that, through repetition and luck, will eventually score kills. Whereas a poorly-run balanced squad is great practice with no chance in hell of winning anything (being so skill-intensive), a poorly-run minimalist team should have a fighting chance against a superbly-run balanced build. My rationale for this is that this game is Guild Wars, not Counterstrike.

Builds should matter - A Guild Wars match should not go always to the skilled, nor always to the build, but that all the factors should combine with a bit of luck.
Weird skills should counter straightforward, powerful ones - everyone knows prot is a !#%^ing powerful line, and I fear that GVGers get rather angsty whenever bizarre counters like Mark of Insecurity suddenly jump up and challenge their comfort with prot's supremacy.

Maybe you're saying that the "minimalist offense" is being used by the top teams to reliably defeat other top teams, and if that's so I guess the constituent skills really deserve consideration for a nerf. Though more in line with my view, the counters should probably be buffed. At the highest level of play, the strongest build should be a some form of a balanced squad that brings out the strengths of the individual players. You can beat anything with balanced if you're hard enough. "Balanced" is opposed to "overload." Overload should be able to take you far, but only so far.

Edwards · Jan 14, 2009, 06:02 AM // 06:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tristan lol

In the OP you discussed the underlying standalone skills for the "minimalist offense" and say that they are bad for the game and that you should not be able to bring that much offense on a well-rounded bar. I didn't catch a reason why you draw these conclusions, though. I might be mistaken, but you seemed to suggest that a spike is self-evidently bad... or perhaps just too strong of a concept in the present balance.

So allow me to briefly retort. The despised "minimalist offense"--the builds loaded with defensive tools and just enough offense to squeeze out a 600-damage hit, are the last, best hope for the common man in the face of the strong. Strong defenses allow new, under-practiced, and poor players reprieve from their mistakes. These players can lean on each other for the build's success in a minimalist team, when there are redundant defensive roles checking a superior enemy's tactics. And the spike is a test of enemy defenses that, through repetition and luck, will eventually score kills. Whereas a poorly-run balanced squad is great practice with no chance in hell of winning anything (being so skill-intensive), a poorly-run minimalist team should have a fighting chance against a superbly-run balanced build. My rationale for this is that this game is Guild Wars, not Counterstrike.

Builds should matter - A Guild Wars match should not go always to the skilled, nor always to the build, but that all the factors should combine with a bit of luck.
Weird skills should counter straightforward, powerful ones - everyone knows prot is a !#%^ing powerful line, and I fear that GVGers get rather angsty whenever bizarre counters like Mark of Insecurity suddenly jump up and challenge their comfort with prot's supremacy.

Maybe you're saying that the "minimalist offense" is being used by the top teams to reliably defeat other top teams, and if that's so I guess the constituent skills really deserve consideration for a nerf. Though more in line with my view, the counters should probably be buffed. At the highest level of play, the strongest build should be a some form of a balanced squad that brings out the strengths of the individual players. You can beat anything with balanced if you're hard enough. "Balanced" is opposed to "overload." Overload should be able to take you far, but only so far.

So, you're saying that you like the meta of builds taking a bare minimum of offense in order to get kills because it hides the bad players and lets them compete with people who are more skilled than they are?

The problem is that there's no real incentive to run a balanced build. It takes much more skill and effort, there's a much smaller margin for error, and you don't get any special advantage from it other than being able to call yourself honourable on internet forums.

Also, are you seriously defending MoI on the basis that it brings build diversity through eliminating the effectiveness of prot monks?

lutz · Jan 14, 2009, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tristan lol

In the OP you discussed the underlying standalone skills for the "minimalist offense" and say that they are bad for the game and that you should not be able to bring that much offense on a well-rounded bar. I didn't catch a reason why you draw these conclusions, though. I might be mistaken, but you seemed to suggest that a spike is self-evidently bad... or perhaps just too strong of a concept in the present balance.

So allow me to briefly retort. The despised "minimalist offense"--the builds loaded with defensive tools and just enough offense to squeeze out a 600-damage hit, are the last, best hope for the common man in the face of the strong. Strong defenses allow new, under-practiced, and poor players reprieve from their mistakes. These players can lean on each other for the build's success in a minimalist team, when there are redundant defensive roles checking a superior enemy's tactics. And the spike is a test of enemy defenses that, through repetition and luck, will eventually score kills. Whereas a poorly-run balanced squad is great practice with no chance in hell of winning anything (being so skill-intensive), a poorly-run minimalist team should have a fighting chance against a superbly-run balanced build. My rationale for this is that this game is Guild Wars, not Counterstrike.

Builds should matter - A Guild Wars match should not go always to the skilled, nor always to the build, but that all the factors should combine with a bit of luck.
Weird skills should counter straightforward, powerful ones - everyone knows prot is a !#%^ing powerful line, and I fear that GVGers get rather angsty whenever bizarre counters like Mark of Insecurity suddenly jump up and challenge their comfort with prot's supremacy.

Maybe you're saying that the "minimalist offense" is being used by the top teams to reliably defeat other top teams, and if that's so I guess the constituent skills really deserve consideration for a nerf. Though more in line with my view, the counters should probably be buffed. At the highest level of play, the strongest build should be a some form of a balanced squad that brings out the strengths of the individual players. You can beat anything with balanced if you're hard enough. "Balanced" is opposed to "overload." Overload should be able to take you far, but only so far.

No.
Minimalist defensive spike should never exist in Guild Wars because it basically encourages defensive, stale play. It doesn't matter that this build "caters to new players" because honestly, once better players get their hands on it (which they have), it will turn into an imbalanced build. You are here to balance towards the higher end of the ladder, not the lower end - this is why Izzy doesn't take advice from rank 3000 GvG players, but rather guilds that have consistently finished strong in the mAT.

Defensive spike essentially eliminates pressure builds/offensive builds, split builds, and other forms of play that used to be prevalent in Guild Wars and was what made much of Guild Wars tactical. Damage compression in the form of Burning Arrow->Hunter's Shot->Savage Shot gives defensive builds an opportunity to complete an objective that they are not supposed to complete.

A perfectly "balanced" build isn't always going to win every match, even if it is played perfectly in every manner possible. In fact, Guild Wars should never be like that. Speccing builds and modifying builds should be part of the game. However, all builds possible should be kept in line with balance in mind (e.g. hexes should not be too powerful, dedicated split should not be too powerful, etc.).

"Buffing counters" is the dumbest idea that has brought us to this crap meta we are in right now. You don't "buff counters", forcing people to bring certain skills if they want a chance at winning. You make the game balanced. Builds should be moved towards the center of the "offensive and defensive" scale, and towards the center of the "8v8 stand play and split play" - though all builds should not be exactly at the center.

The point I'm trying to get across is: builds shouldn't be both offensive and defensive juggernauts, while still being able to split, spike at stand, and survive everywhere. You shouldn't have to bring a lot of skills to just stand a chance at even remotely surviving another build just because of the skills they bring - they should have the advantage, but you shouldn't wipe in 10 seconds 8v8 just because you didn't bring Divert Hexes or Infuse Health.

Again, I am going to reiterate (yes, 3 times) my original point:
I don't mind defensive builds. However, wholly defensive builds should not be allowed to score spike kills nor pressure kills in the sense that the current rawrspike build does. There is far too much defense and offense for that build to be even considered good for the game.

P.S. Have you played GvG?

Ex Death · Jan 14, 2009, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Nerfing the Burning Arrow->Hunter's Shot->Savage Shot won't be enough. Obviously hunter's shot is the main problem because of the 1 sec cast but all the 1 sec cast skills will need to be nerfed by removing the cast time. NOT by reducing the numbers (as was done previously) because at 14 marksmanship and with read the wind it will inherently produce massive spike damage no matter what the numbers are. Scaling flail properly is also necessary.

If only hunter's shot is nerfed most probably people will simply run something like:

Sloth Hunter's->Penetrating/Power shot->Punishing shot

This still keeps the same utility as the current bar, essentially swapping savage shot for punishing and has similar spike damage.

Maybe a fix for hunter's shot (as not to destroy the skill for normal ranger bars) would be to remove the cast time and + damage and make it apply unconditional bleeding. Careful consideration for the length of bleeding and recharge of the skill would need to be applied but this should promote more pressure.

FoxBat · Jan 14, 2009, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Turn all those 1s attacks to 1/2 with aftercast like savage, it's rather simple.

minor · Jan 14, 2009, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tristan lol

[*]Weird skills should counter straightforward, powerful ones - everyone knows prot is a !#%^ing powerful line, and I fear that GVGers get rather angsty whenever bizarre counters like Mark of Insecurity suddenly jump up and challenge their comfort with prot's supremacy.[/LIST]

Yes they get "angsty".
Prot requires skill, you can't just throw around PS/SB all day,
wasting even small prots hurts your energy.
But when its useless to bring prot because its going to removed before it does anything then monking turns into smash buttons and keep red bars up.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jan 14, 2009, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Turn all those 1s attacks to 1/2 with aftercast like savage, it's rather simple.

What's that gonna do, you still will be able to burning arrow+insta hunters, just your next interupt won't be instant.
There are deeper problems with the build though, ancestors on 8 second recharge pulsing twice under spirit bond and prot spirit range, rend, caretakers every 4 seconds healing the rit and casting for free.
As others have mentioned though buffs to other skills have just further promoted this type of play. Can't go wrong with a decent spike, 2x pots, 2x wardings, in a meta filled with lingering, hum sig, and moi.

Reverend Dr · Jan 14, 2009, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Running a highly defensive spike lets poorer players stay in the match longer.

Staying in the match longer =! better chance of winning.

Minimalistic offense doesn't even do what you are touting it does.