Curse

Ciric · Mar 27, 2009, 09:34 AM // 09:34

6v6 no heros.

6v6 makes groups easier to form, puts more emphasis on individual player skill, and forces more bar compression so not every team can fit snares, interupts, off monk hex removal, song of conc, and haste AND still be able to kill.

On the topic of 8v8, keep the heros, Me/Rts are dumb and easy to out fake, and ffs people stop thinking they interrupt 1/4 cast, tease has AoE, if a team has 2 Teases then chances are at some point in the match you will get randomly interrupted on a 1/4 cast duel to AoE tease. The only build the Me/Rts shine against is r-spike and I guess now the w/a + 2 spikers variant because they can pre prot every spike with warding/shadow (there is an easy way to avoid this but I'll keep that secret with me and scary, not that it matters bc no one runs r-spike anymore).

Reverend Dr · Mar 27, 2009, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ciric

so not every team can fit snares, interupts, off monk hex removal, song of conc, and haste AND still be able to kill.

You obviously don't remember the gimmicks of the old 6v6 days.

Shmanka · Mar 27, 2009, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

You obviously don't remember the gimmicks of the old 6v6 days.

Those "gimmicks" you speak of is a entirely different problem that had nothing to do with the 6v6 format of pvp. It had to do with the ridiculous imbalance that Nightfall Introduced to the game. 6v6 wasn't broken because all you needed were 2 Searing Flames Eles, or 6 Necros with Jagged Bones. Those were skill problems, and if you believe that 6v6 allowed that, and none of those things would have worked 8v8 when nightfall came out, then you should go outside and get about 2 buckets of tacs, drop them on the floor and roll around in them.

Reverend Dr · Mar 29, 2009, 04:53 AM // 04:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

ridiculous imbalance that Nightfall Introduced to the game

When did they fix this? I must have missed a big update.

Killed u man · Mar 29, 2009, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

Those "gimmicks" you speak of is a entirely different problem that had nothing to do with the 6v6 format of pvp. It had to do with the ridiculous imbalance that Nightfall Introduced to the game. 6v6 wasn't broken because all you needed were 2 Searing Flames Eles, or 6 Necros with Jagged Bones. Those were skill problems, and if you believe that 6v6 allowed that, and none of those things would have worked 8v8 when nightfall came out, then you should go outside and get about 2 buckets of tacs, drop them on the floor and roll around in them.

6v6 would suck for the obvious reason you can only run 1 "balanced", and then 1 type of spike build.

["Make Haste!"], [SoC], [Aura of Stability], [Ward Against Foes], [PD].

These are just the VERY basics. As in, THE VERY EFFING BASICS. And to pull this off, you atleast need:

XX
XX
E/P
Me/..
Monk
Monk

So you got 2 and a half bar to fit in your own skills...

Heck, those 2 people are going to be running, don't forget.

So you got 2 Monks, 2 Runners, 1 Shutdown and 1 Snare. I can see how this will do good to build variety... o.0

bitchbar player · Mar 29, 2009, 05:01 PM // 17:01

who says you need 2 monks....

Krill · Mar 29, 2009, 06:43 PM // 18:43

1 monk healing, protting and removing hexes for 6 players? GL with that, one monk is barely enough for TA and that's with no prots besides a 5s gaurdian.

At minimum (if nothing changes) you would need to run a WoH, PnH prot and FF necro for 6v6, which would severely limit any sort of balanced play...even more than it is now.

bitchbar player · Mar 29, 2009, 07:32 PM // 19:32

well you are allowed to take some stuff on your midline....

Ciric · Mar 30, 2009, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

6v6 would suck for the obvious reason you can only run 1 "balanced", and then 1 type of spike build.

["Make Haste!"], [SoC], [Aura of Stability], [Ward Against Foes], [PD].

These are just the VERY basics. As in, THE VERY EFFING BASICS. And to pull this off, you atleast need:

XX
XX
E/P
Me/..
Monk
Monk

So you got 2 and a half bar to fit in your own skills...

Heck, those 2 people are going to be running, don't forget.

So you got 2 Monks, 2 Runners, 1 Shutdown and 1 Snare. I can see how this will do good to build variety... o.0

Build variety comes because you can not fit all of the things you need into 1 build and still have to be effective. There are ways to fit all of the utilities into one build but the build is so neutered and ineffective it wont do anything.

ATM every build is able to fit: SoC, Snares (generally grasping/foes), off monk removal (off monk removal isn't as needed in 6v6 obviously), Hard Interupts (PD/Cry/Ranger Interupts), 2 Hard Resses, AoE, and a good amount of single target damage (generally warrirors), and soeed buffs generally in the form of haste, enchantment removal, and off monk defence (also not as needed in 6v6). When you reduce HA to six players however you can't fit all of that into one build.

Builds will have to chose what that want to be good at instead of being able to spec for every map, thus leading to more build variety.

Show me a build that can have all the utilitys and still have a good amount of shutdown and press damage and I will retract my statement.

iVendetta · Mar 30, 2009, 02:56 AM // 02:56

12v12 with heroes.

Krill · Mar 30, 2009, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom Bocca

well you are allowed to take some stuff on your midline....

The problem is that with the current state of hexes you pretty much need PnH. I'm not saying it would be impossible to do without a two monk backline but honestly start to think about where you're going to fit adequate healing, prots, hex and condition removal while still having enough damage, shutdown and the mandatory HA skills (snares, command, probably a weapon spell). Maybe a hybrid WoH with Foul Feast, Expel and PwK on midliners would be enough but I seriously doubt it.

I think smiting and mind blast eles would basically dominate a 6v6 format and there would be no semblance of balance.

Morgoth the dark · Mar 30, 2009, 09:36 AM // 09:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ciric

6v6 makes groups easier to form, puts more emphasis on individual player skill, and forces more bar compression so not every team can fit snares, interupts, off monk hex removal, song of conc, and haste AND still be able to kill.

no no and no.
We had 6v6 and IT WAS CRAP. Took about the same time to form and nothing else than wierd / OP builds came out. Nothing good.
And we fought hard to get 8v8 back, so... remove heroes and that's it.

Scary · Mar 30, 2009, 10:39 AM // 10:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ciric

6v6 no heros.

6v6 makes groups easier to form, puts more emphasis on individual player skill, and forces more bar compression so not every team can fit snares, interupts, off monk hex removal, song of conc, and haste AND still be able to kill.

On the topic of 8v8, keep the heros, Me/Rts are dumb and easy to out fake, and ffs people stop thinking they interrupt 1/4 cast, tease has AoE, if a team has 2 Teases then chances are at some point in the match you will get randomly interrupted on a 1/4 cast duel to AoE tease. The only build the Me/Rts shine against is r-spike and I guess now the w/a + 2 spikers variant because they can pre prot every spike with warding/shadow (there is an easy way to avoid this but I'll keep that secret with me and scary, not that it matters bc no one runs r-spike anymore).

Pls can we have a 1v1 ...

axe · Mar 30, 2009, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ciric

Build variety comes because you can not fit all of the things you need into 1 build and still have to be effective. There are ways to fit all of the utilities into one build but the build is so neutered and ineffective it wont do anything.

ATM every build is able to fit: SoC, Snares (generally grasping/foes), off monk removal (off monk removal isn't as needed in 6v6 obviously), Hard Interupts (PD/Cry/Ranger Interupts), 2 Hard Resses, AoE, and a good amount of single target damage (generally warrirors), and soeed buffs generally in the form of haste, enchantment removal, and off monk defence (also not as needed in 6v6). When you reduce HA to six players however you can't fit all of that into one build.

Builds will have to chose what that want to be good at instead of being able to spec for every map, thus leading to more build variety.

Show me a build that can have all the utilitys and still have a good amount of shutdown and press damage and I will retract my statement.

I think Build variety comes from people settling on the maps they wish to win, and shrugging their shoulders on other maps, for PuG builds you will ONLY be pugging builds to win the first 3 maps, why? because if you dont the team will disband.

Pug builds have to be easy to form, easy to play, and consistently win the first 3 maps. No matter what the 6v6, 4v4, 8v8 the meta will settle into the format and you will have the same thing, and people will cry to bring back 8v8. There are much more tactical options available to 8v8 for the players that wish to use them, otherwise its simply counter builds and various other forms of build wars to allow better chances VS the current meta.

RotteN · Mar 30, 2009, 02:06 PM // 14:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by axe

Pug builds have to be easy to form, easy to play, and consistently win the first 3 maps.

Old IWAY says hi. Probably the best example of what was a "good" pug-build.

HA will never "regain it's old glory" (it's debatable weather or not it ever had any glory to begin with). I don't think 6v6 as opposed to 8v8 would change much.

Killed u man · Mar 30, 2009, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ciric

Build variety comes because you can not fit all of the things you need into 1 build and still have to be effective. There are ways to fit all of the utilities into one build but the build is so neutered and ineffective it wont do anything.

ATM every build is able to fit: SoC, Snares (generally grasping/foes), off monk removal (off monk removal isn't as needed in 6v6 obviously), Hard Interupts (PD/Cry/Ranger Interupts), 2 Hard Resses, AoE, and a good amount of single target damage (generally warrirors), and soeed buffs generally in the form of haste, enchantment removal, and off monk defence (also not as needed in 6v6). When you reduce HA to six players however you can't fit all of that into one build.

Builds will have to chose what that want to be good at instead of being able to spec for every map, thus leading to more build variety.

Show me a build that can have all the utilitys and still have a good amount of shutdown and press damage and I will retract my statement.

It's the other way around... The SMALLER the format, the MORE it comes down to skills, and the lesser on skill. Look at TA: Mind Blast spam OWNS everything. I've rolled R8+ glad teams, rawr, dr, etc... by spamming mind blast with 3 terrible guildies.

6v6 is the same, the lesser skills you have to work with, the more important the choice of skills becomes, and the faster you'll get build warsed...

TheHaxor · Mar 30, 2009, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Let's make it 12v12 and on every map you run around and cap shrines that give you random buffs. You need to earn 500 points to win the match. Three points are awarded for each kill on the other team and every seven seconds you earn one point for each shrine you control. If you hold all the points for 60 seconds, then you automatically win the match.

I think this will be a new and exciting game type.

Ciric · Mar 30, 2009, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

It's the other way around... The SMALLER the format, the MORE it comes down to skills, and the lesser on skill. Look at TA: Mind Blast spam OWNS everything. I've rolled R8+ glad teams, rawr, dr, etc... by spamming mind blast with 3 terrible guildies.

6v6 is the same, the lesser skills you have to work with, the more important the choice of skills becomes, and the faster you'll get build warsed...

4v4 presents a very difficult situation with how much healing to bring that 6v6 really doesn't present. Also, your build has 100% to due with the fact that 99% of TA monks dnt run SB/PS to stop big ele damage. Hell they don't even run RoF. Is this buildwars, yes, but the difference is if MB spam became popular in TA then people would run SB/PS, however due to the setup of TA build ideas spread slow, if at all. High ele damage has always been powerful in TA where monks run no hard prots.

To other people comparing a new 6v6 to old 6v6. Just stop, the imbalances arn't there, the IMBA skills, and bad map rotation is gone, and idk how u think it will take longer to get 6 people over.. well 6 because everyone runs heros now anyway.

6v6 puts more emphasis on player skill, and you can not buildwars for every map. Like someone else say "you build for some maps and shrug about the others". This, is very good, and what HA needs. When builds try to put everything into each build you get very similar builds no matter what because over 1/2 the skills out of 64 are "needed" to be successful (this is a overstatement for those of you who take everything literally, but tis pretty close I'm just to lazy to count). I can not think of one 6v6 build now that offers everything you need, builds will always lack enchant removal, AoE damage, press damage (AoE damage isn't really press damage on maps anymore due to less players), shutdown/interrupts, ect... 6v6 also allows for HA to remain somewhat active since most teams now can't find 8 people.

And lets not forget how 6v6 effectively balances some of the imbalances of 8v8. 6v6 nicely balances hate, the power of AoE on cap points, hinders spike builds, along with other things.

TheHaxor · Mar 30, 2009, 07:47 PM // 19:47

I'll be serious here for a moment. I don't agree with borat on much, but in this case he is absolutely right. I'm actually going to completely disagree with Shmanka. 6v6 would kill build variety even more because there are even less available skill slots to fit the mandatory skills. You still will have to take some of the skills borat has listed. It is just how the system works. You also are pretty much locked into taking AoE due to the nature of cap points (if you actually want to win consistently). I think a variety of play styles is what can make this game a really enjoyable experience, so killing it further would not be a good option. I don't think anyone likes to play against the same style of play match after match. It turns into a grind.

I honestly don't care what they do with heroes. The important issue to me is how the map types in halls place constraints on build variety. I would prefer to see fewer map types in halls. At the moment you have to build to kill the other team in a timely fashion, build to enable your team to run relics effectively and effectively slow the other team from doing so, build to stay up for extended periods of time with multiple teams beating on your team, and build to quickly wipe people that are in close proximity to one another. This is way too much stuff to do, which means only a few types of builds can actually accomplish it somewhat effectively.

As I've stated before, I also think the map setup in halls is terrible. You play only one relic run and KotH on the way to halls. However, you have to play 4 annihilation maps. Annihilation isn't even a map type in HoH. It makes absolutely no sense. It would make more sense to remove fetid+burial and bring back broken tower+sacred temples. This would put it at a 2-2-2-2 spread. This would make much more sense to me. I would prefer for them to remove one of the map types (I won't go into which because this is a long discussion itself), but at least it wouldn't be as stupid as the current system.

Killed u man · Mar 31, 2009, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ciric

To other people comparing a new 6v6 to old 6v6. Just stop, the imbalances arn't there, the IMBA skills, and bad map rotation is gone, and idk how u think it will take longer to get 6 people over.. well 6 because everyone runs heros now anyway.

[Palm Strike], [Lingering Curse], [Savannah Heat], [Warrior's Endurance], [Forked Arrow], [Glass Arrows], [Jagged Bones] (Once it will become 6v6, watch me hold with Jagged Bones), ...

Not to mention: [Energy Blast], the new SoMW.
[Soul Bind], [Lingering Curse], the NEW Jagged way.
[Warrior's Endurance], [Mirror of Ice], the new Eurospike.

Balance is just as bad as it ever was. The thing is, at the moment, you've got 5-6 overpowered bars per profession to choose from, instead of 1-2 a few months ago. This still doesn't compare to the old days, where one could litteraly run 40+ (even tough somewhat relative) different builds.

As for map rotation, during the old 6v6, ALL you had to bring was enough killing power. I'm holding my heart for what will happen if we have to pack all the previously mentioned shit (look prev. post of me) into one build. How redicilous would it be to "build wars" for certain maps?
I can see where you're comming from, tough, but it's just a really bad idea. What you're saying is that people should just "cut down" on their snares and "hope" not getting Relic Run in HoH? I'm sorry, but then HoH will become EVEN MORE random than it is now.
One simply can't pack enough skills to be competitive in HoH in a 6v6 format. I can already imagine the: "Whoops, we're facing Searing Flames on Cap Points with our "relic run" based build. Who shall we gank?". Even tough that is already the case, right now, you always got that random 30% chance of winning cuz HoH is so fcking random anyways.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ciric

6v6 puts more emphasis on player skill, and you can not buildwars for every map. Like someone else say "you build for some maps and shrug about the others". This, is very good, and what HA needs.

This could work if you're facing a set amount of enemies with a set amount of builds. In PvE, that is...
In PvE, you can spec for certain area's, and then just "win on skill" on those other area's. But what happens if you decide to run a "kill based" build, and face a "relic run" based build on a relic map? It's pretty much auto win for them, you can't get any more build wars than this.

(Yes, you COULD kill them, as in dominate your playstyle upon them, BUT since they're running a build specced for running, I assume they shouldn't die within those 2-3 minutes)

Or atleast they have a HUGE advantage over you. Something that only a unranked vs r10+ barrier might over come...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ciric

And lets not forget how 6v6 effectively balances some of the imbalances of 8v8. 6v6 nicely balances hate, the power of AoE on cap points, hinders spike builds, along with other things.

Ok, this is the only thing I can agree with really. 6v6 will see lesser spikes. Non-the-less, Rspike, SF spike and even ritspike will dominate the format regardless. ESPECIALLY when you have to bring so many utlity in such a small build.

So by making it 6v6, I can imagine 90% of the teams simply being some form of spike, so they can still fit as much utility in there aswell. (Face it, spiking IS the better build by nature. In HoH, spikes offer better snare/running capability. Being able to spike a ghostly down > some aoe pressure on the enemy team and having 4+ healers in a 6 mean team > having 2 healers...)

But those are all just big if's...

If people didn't suck as bad, and didn't use OP skills, HA would actually be a fun format.

If...