Curse

Nadia Roark · Apr 29, 2009, 07:10 AM // 07:10

So I've been back in HA for a week or two now and I think I finally have a handle on whats going on with the meta. I had a lot of experience protting for balanced groups but lately I've been running a little bit of everything--about the only builds I haven't gotten to yet are the rspikes and bspikes since I dont trust pugs to run them effectively. I've taken to the PnH build because its ridiculously easy but also reasonably effective: for once I feel like I can play monk without risking a stroke.

But one thing has been driving me nuts and it's this: THE WIKI PnH BUILD BLOWS GOATS. Almost every group I join asks me to run with [peace and harmony] (fine), [Deny Hexes] (fine) [Divine Healing] (GARBAGE) and [Heaven's Delight] (ALSO GARBAGE) along with the attendant Paragon skills (fine).

Folks: it might be easier to play with the divine heals, but PnH + [Shield of Absorption] + [Spirit Bond] + [Aura of stability] is a MILLION times better than just running a deny + 2 divine favor heals. Very often teams are too spread out to take advantage of [Heaven's Delight] and [Divine Healing], and even if they aren't, these skills don't work on the Ghostly so they're effectively a waste of two skill slots any time you play an altar match.

Now don't get me wrong--the wiki Mo/P Deny Hex build was my favorite when I came back to HA because I barely had to do anything to make it work: but after getting back into the swing of active prot, the wiki build just doesn't compare. Sure, you have to spec into prot, but having a second [Aura of Stability] is pure clutch, and SoA + Spirit Bond is way better on altars which I always thought was the point of playing HoH in the first place.

Deny + Divine heals is okay for IWAY, but I wouldn't take it over a PnH prot bar in any other build I've played so far. Hexes have been reasonably prominent in HA lately so I would listen to someone who told me to to bring Deny at the expense of either SOA or SB, but Aura of Stability should be goddamn GLUED to your bar, and so should at least one prot skill.

So what I propose is this: spam your GLF as normal but if you're looking for a high ranking PnH, please for the love of god make him run a useful bar or else you're wasting your rank req. A r0 could run the wiki PnH + Divine heals build, but it takes a little know-how to run the active prot skills like SoA, SB and Aura. Every single time I play PnH with divine heals, I watch party members take damage that I could easily prot if the team leader would let me run a bar that would allow it. Most so far have been reasonably open-minded, but nothing drives me batshit insane quite like being told to run a crappy bar and then watching my team die because I can't prot them. Throw me a bone here!

sarra june · Apr 29, 2009, 09:01 AM // 09:01

What are you talking about?

Since when is the meta a pnh prot monk with party heals in place of spirit bond, SOA, and AOS? ...um, pretty sure never. You're either running that pnh prot mo/p junk with two monks (in which case you're not the prot monk - #7 is) or you're running it with e/rt healers... in which case you probably have spirits that make prots BAED.

Amirite? o.o

Eduhard · Apr 29, 2009, 09:08 AM // 09:08

Agreed with that, btw did you notice how everytime a pug fails its the monks fault? always.

And poor monk if he's not runing the PvX build...pug rule nº1: Run the exact pvx build or you're a noob, and that sux if you ask me.

I say that because I've had the same problems with pnh builds.

Nadia Roark · Apr 29, 2009, 09:21 AM // 09:21

Quote:

What are you talking about?

Since when is the meta a pnh prot monk with party heals in place of spirit bond, SOA, and AOS? ...um, pretty sure never. You're either running that pnh prot mo/p junk with two monks (in which case you're not the prot monk - #7 is) or you're running it with e/rt healers... in which case you probably have spirits that make prots BAED.

Amirite? o.o

No, you're not. Not really. I get asked for the party heals at LEAST 50% of the time I ping my bar during party formation, and I run with [Shield of Absorption] [Aura of Stability] and [spirit bond] by default. If you're not getting people asking you for the gay Divine Heals + Deny bar you're a lucky man (or you're just more discriminating than I am; perhaps my error is that I don't always care about rank) but it's been my experience that people have been asking for the crappier of the two bars.

I know that I'm not the prot if I'm running PnH in anything other than IWAY, and that you feel the need to point that out makes me giggle. The wide majority of my fame has been earned as prot in various balanced backlines, so I know how HA backlines work, what skills they use, and why.

And yes, Tranq reduces the duration of my prot, but even against/with IWAY the prot bar is wildly superior to the Divine Healer bar because all the prots I carry are reasonably fast casting (except for SoA) and the duration on PnH and Spirit Bond I could give a shit about as long as they accomplish their stop-gap objectives: e.g. "remove hexes and conditions" and "pad the spike for our healer" respectively. I've run both bars under NR/Tranq and the PnH Prot bar is still wildly superior to the PnH Divine Healer bar.

Lux Aeterna · Apr 29, 2009, 03:14 PM // 15:14

So why do monks in HA routinely leave party bars at around half health for long periods ?

I really hate it when my health stays around half for 10 seconds, this forces me to be overly cautious and I can't use frenzy or really pressure much.

Are they out of energy, do the standard wiki builds not have enough healing, or are they just lazy and asking for spikes ?

Maybe I just need to friends list some good monks.

dr love · Apr 29, 2009, 05:16 PM // 17:16

[Shield of Absorption] [Aura of Stability] [spirit bond]

these are often run on the IWAY pnh to protect the ghost on KOTH, strangely enough. even with nature's renewal working against him (though you can time NR to die before your ghost is up)

party heals do take off a lot of the burden in pug grps. generally there is balling, causing dmg to multiple targets. and meta infuse is a WoH monk usually with no party heals. it is pretty easy to get everyone in your bubble to heal the whole party on most maps. also, there is the potential for SoA and SB to overlap with the prot monk's.

that being said, i do think your choice of skills is better, but you'll need to coord with the prot a little. also if you want a challenging bar with great skills, i recommend the pnh prot bar used in GvG.

[Peace and Harmony] [Shield of Absorption] [Aura of Stability] [spirit bond] [reversal of fortune] [mend condition] [guardian] [channeling]

Nadia Roark · Apr 29, 2009, 05:30 PM // 17:30

@ Lux: I cant speak for other monks, but for me warriors tend to be low on my priority list for everything except hex/condition removal. I try to spirit bond on frenzy if I catch it, but 90% of the time, someone else is taking damage that they shouldn't. I don't usually run heals myself so I can't speak to their habits but it wouldn't surprise me if heal monks acted the same way for similar reasons.

@dbulger: yep, the prot bar's superiority on altars is exactly the issue towards which I was driving. I've seen the divine heal bar come in handy a few times (and you're right to say it works okay in pugs on account of balling) but my point is if you're trying to look for someone who knows what they're doing, you might as well have them run a half decent bar. Asking for r9+ with the divine healer bar is about as lol as asking for a r12 oath shot.

Krill · Apr 29, 2009, 06:24 PM // 18:24

People run Divine Healing and Heaven's Delight on the PnH support because they are cheap party heals. It's really hard for an HB to handle all the party healing and a WoH infuse has no party healing. It is common with the Mo/P to drop SoC for Aura of Stability though, with someone else bringing SoC.

I agree with your point that the Divine Favor heals aren't that great through, PwK and Life are far superior party heals because of the amount and range when comparing a PnH support to some kind of rit support.

Nadia Roark · Apr 29, 2009, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Well, yeah. It's not to say that I haven't seen them come in handy (especially against party-wide pressure of course) but I suppose the utility of the Divine Favor heals depends on how good your team is--not just the healer(s) but the team in general; if they're apt to stand in AoE take the Divine heals by all means--but if that's the case I wouldn't be too optimistic about your team's chances anyway.

Ec]-[oMaN · Apr 29, 2009, 06:41 PM // 18:41

You do realize people want that Mo/P because;

a)added hex remove
b)don't really have to run an HB monk since you have dual party heals
c)a midliner can now pack weapon of warding/resilient weapon/death pact instead of going /p with make haste and song
d)frontline can go any secondary
e)you can bring a prot monk that is i)better at bar pushing(RC) or ii)better at reducing dmg using(LS)

It's really to do with how the rest of the build is set up with characters and secondaries, using that extra monk just adds a ton more resilience to a build. I agree it is rather funny that groups need a r9+ person in that spot though

Lux Aeterna · Apr 29, 2009, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

@ Lux: I cant speak for other monks, but for me warriors tend to be low on my priority list for everything except hex/condition removal. I try to spirit bond on frenzy if I catch it, but 90% of the time, someone else is taking damage that they shouldn't. I don't usually run heals myself so I can't speak to their habits but it wouldn't surprise me if heal monks acted the same way for similar reasons.

It wasn't just me, it was more the whole party just being permanently low on HP...
Like just toss me a reversal and a patient spirit and I'll be in the "fine" zone, but it seemed like we had some inattentives. x2 palm sins on our backline might also be to blame.

In gvg like usually unless the party's taking an extremely large amount of pressure the monks will be successful in keeping party bars mostly full.

Maybe it's just bad low ranked monks.

Next question:

Why do people use [life sheath].

Sun Fired Blank · Apr 29, 2009, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Why are you theorycrafting trash?

Nadia Roark · Apr 29, 2009, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Wow... GwG mods are allowed to flame? If I said anything like that on the boards I moderate I'd lose my job...

sarra june · Apr 29, 2009, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

You do realize people want that Mo/P because;

a)added hex remove
b)don't really have to run an HB monk since you have dual party heals
c)a midliner can now pack weapon of warding/resilient weapon/death pact instead of going /p with make haste and song
d)frontline can go any secondary
e)you can bring a prot monk that is i)better at bar pushing(RC) or ii)better at reducing dmg using(LS)

It's really to do with how the rest of the build is set up with characters and secondaries, using that extra monk just adds a ton more resilience to a build. I agree it is rather funny that groups need a r9+ person in that spot though

Agreed!

Also: that gvg prot bar is exactly what i run in tombs too

(sans mend when we have foul feast)!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

Well, yeah. It's not to say that I haven't seen them come in handy (especially against party-wide pressure of course) but I suppose the utility of the Divine Favor heals depends on how good your team is--not just the healer(s) but the team in general; if they're apt to stand in AoE take the Divine heals by all means--but if that's the case I wouldn't be too optimistic about your team's chances anyway.

Exactly

Divine heals are for the excessive taking naps in aoe to be found in tombz! It shouldn't happen but it does... even on the supposedly good teams >.>

Nadia Roark · Apr 29, 2009, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

You do realize people want that Mo/P because;

a)added hex remove
b)don't really have to run an HB monk since you have dual party heals
c)a midliner can now pack weapon of warding/resilient weapon/death pact instead of going /p with make haste and song
d)frontline can go any secondary
e)you can bring a prot monk that is i)better at bar pushing(RC) or ii)better at reducing dmg using(LS)

It's really to do with how the rest of the build is set up with characters and secondaries, using that extra monk just adds a ton more resilience to a build. I agree it is rather funny that groups need a r9+ person in that spot though

You do realize that this isn't about Mo/P in general as much as it is about what monk skills are being carried? Be moar condescending pl0x. It's all right there in my first post.

My argument is that the two party heals do not (by and large) offer the same boost that the active prot skills do. As we've been discussing, the Divine Heals are better for teams that ball, but I'm not the kind of player that's overly inclined to pander to that particular error by carrying these skills: I would prefer my teammates not be noobs

Ec]-[oMaN · Apr 29, 2009, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

You do realize that this isn't about Mo/P in general as much as it is about what monk skills are being carried? Be moar condescending pl0x. It's all right there in my first post.

My argument is that the two party heals do not (by and large) offer the same boost that the active prot skills do. As we've been discussing, the Divine Heals are better for teams that ball, but I'm not the kind of player that's overly inclined to pander to that particular error by carrying these skills: I would prefer my teammates not be noobs

It is about the Mo/P. I've addressed why that template and skills are used, it contradicts your skill choice because of the reasons I've outlined above. The party heals are there for a reason, first off because you already have a prot monk in the team build, and secondly because it frees up midline character and skill choice, and gives the heal monk another option. Then to tip it off you'd have to spec in 3 att's on that Mo/P and all three need to be relatively high in order for you to get decent use out of it, just won't work trying to slot prot skills if you're forced to bring the paragon skills. Not taking those paragon specific skills on that character would also be a waste since you'd have to slot them elsewhere. On certain game mods within HA you really can't avoid AOE dmg hitting multiple people anyways so that argument is pretty weak. If you wish to talk about reasons as to why people aren't running a PnH GvG prot monk in HA and doing away with the Mo/P we can get into that also.

Sun Fired Blank · Apr 29, 2009, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Flaming? I think the bar is trash, and I don't understand why people run it, and I don't understand why it's worth theory-crafting.

Ec]-[oMaN · Apr 29, 2009, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

Flaming? I think the bar is trash, and I don't understand why people run it, and I don't understand why it's worth theory-crafting.

If you mean the Mo/P bar, I wouldn't say it's trash. It's just overkill, maybe a little redundant and not really needed tbh. You can get away with out it, but again for certain builds it gives other characters more options.

Nadia Roark · Apr 29, 2009, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

Flaming? I think the bar is trash, and I don't understand why people run it, and I don't understand why it's worth theory-crafting.

I must have misunderstood; to me it looked like you were calling him "theorycrafting trash" which didn't really make sense to me having never seen the former word. My apologies.

@echo

Quote:

It is about the Mo/P. I've addressed why that template and skills are used, it contradicts your skill choice because of the reasons I've outlined above. The party heals are there for a reason, first off because you already have a prot monk in the team build, and secondly because it frees up midline character and skill choice, and gives the heal monk another option. Then to tip it off you'd have to spec in 3 att's on that Mo/P and all three need to be relatively high in order for you to get decent use out of it, just won't work trying to slot prot skills if you're forced to bring the paragon skills. Not taking those paragon specific skills on that character would also be a waste since you'd have to slot them elsewhere. On certain game mods within HA you really can't avoid AOE dmg hitting multiple people anyways so that argument is pretty weak. If you wish to talk about reasons as to why people aren't running a PnH GvG prot monk in HA and doing away with the Mo/P we can get into that also.

I don't understand why everyone seems implicitly married to the idea of having just the one prot in a team. Having an extra couple prot spells (not to mention the extra Aura; two AoS is made of win and definately worth speccing into prot) really goes a long way and has made all the difference in many games I've played. Prot 10 + 2; DF 11+1; Command 10 are perfectly fine for atts, since the duration of the paragon shouts aren't overly remarkable between 10 and 12. I was reluctant to spec into prot myself (shocking, I know) but having taken the "Pepsi Challenge" for a few sessions now between both builds, I've won much more often and much easier with the prot bar.

If someone asks me to take a skill out of my bar, my preference would probably be SB, since the prot has it and two people shouldn't have to catch spikes (much less overlap prot) anyway. I could live with running [Peace and Harmony] [Shield of Absorption] [Aura of Stability] and [Deny Hexes], but I'm usually loathe to replace the prots with the Divine healers, especially in balanced groups. I'd rather risk overlapping prot once in a while than run with two sub-par skills for fear of it.

Krill · Apr 29, 2009, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

If you mean the Mo/P bar, I wouldn't say it's trash. It's just overkill, maybe a little redundant and not really needed tbh. You can get away with out it, but again for certain builds it gives other characters more options.

The thing I don't like about the PnH support in general is that it's basically there to counter one meta build. If you go up against a spike or balanced w/o LC the build diminishes significantly in usefulness because it has no offense and the monk skills are bad utility wise. I don't really see offloading the /Rt stuff to another midliner as an advantage either because that limits your choices there as well.

Overall it's even narrower in usefulness than the Spell Breaker support it replaced.