Curse

Vanquisher · May 13, 2009, 04:37 PM // 16:37

By that token is it undesirable to have characters running around hitting people for 40 damage without skill use?

Greedy Gus · May 13, 2009, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Aegis was fantastic when monks didn't take it (or at least it would have been a serious liability in terms of cost, cast time, and slot loss) and it was a powerful tool with drawbacks that landed on flaggers or midline chars, similar to heal party usage. The existence of ward melee & aegis were very necessary as checks against 3 warrior builds in prophecies, even if it was just the threat of being taken and not actually being in every match.

Kaon · May 13, 2009, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Aegis although being stupidly fire and forget, it does promote skillfull play for the opponent team: Shut that shit down or you won't kill anything. Evenso I think it's still too powerful. A more interesting party wide defense was ward against melee and wards in general. You'd have to position it wisely, then use it wisely. Splitting and area of effect will rape you if you don't watch out. But when splitting and aoe together with smart positioning get removed from the game (which is what happened), then the skill is shit.

I'm definately in favor of things doing big damage and blowing shit up quickly, with warriors that is. So you can truely prevent flagpushes when you go balls deep, so overextending players get killed off, so positioning becomes key.

Damn this was such a good game.

DreamWind · May 13, 2009, 06:14 PM // 18:14

OP is 100% on this point...the game almost across the board has gotten easier to play and there has been a major power creep. IMO it makes for an incredibly stale game. I see people posting about how "the players have gotten better" or "there was buildway back then too" to try to minimalize what happened to the game. I don't think it can be minimalized...the depth of the game today is SO much less than before. That is why I don't think you can compare players of today to yesterday, and I don't think you can compare today's build wars to yesterdays. It is just a completely different feeling...a completely different game.

lutz · May 13, 2009, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Aegis is heavily reliant on random factors, which is one of the worst things about this game. 40/40 sets are bad for the competitive aspect of Guild Wars. Aegis, when put up at stand (usually because of a fast cast), mitigates pressure immensely and gives the monks a couple seconds to recuperate their energy and fall back safely if necessary.

Now, we wouldn't have this problem if we didn't have single skills that are incredibly powerful. When you have a single skill that does so much as Aegis does in 8v8, so much that you have to interrupt it every time or you will lose your pressure, your fast casting on the Aegis matters so much. It almost decides the game in terms of which team gets more fast casts.

Randomness in competitive games should exist in very minute forms. 40/40 and 40/20 staffs make things incredibly unreliable and shouldn't even be in the game.

Vanquisher · May 14, 2009, 02:19 AM // 02:19

I would argue that were it not for ridiculous damage output and the power Rangers have in particular, factoring in the awful state party healing is in, there is very little wrong with Aegis and far more wrong with offensive skills. Feel free to disagree, but give stronger reasons than party wide block for 9/30 seconds if it doesn't get interrupted on a 2 cast for 15 cost.

People arguing for pressure should seriously take a look at the game as a whole. Pressure is remarkably good to the extent where split cannot even hope to compete outside of ludicrously imbalanced templates and mechanics, which is only allowed in terms of dedicated split.

Reverend Dr · May 14, 2009, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Feel free to disagree, but give stronger reasons than party wide block for 9/30 seconds if it doesn't get interrupted on a 2 cast for 15 cost.

Sometimes its party wide block for 9/15 seconds on a 1 second cast. That sometimes being entirely dependent on random chance.

I've never really had a problem with aegis on the backline. Its when multiple copies start getting thrown all over the midline. With multiple aegis all over it becomes much more difficult to pull them all down.

If course that is the defensive web and what would really stop teams from bringing all of that back. It is a predicament for which I don't really have an answer. Nothing is stopping teams from bringing multiple copies. Two aegis on monks isn't a problem; but the huge defensive webs we've seen before are problems to which aegis has contributed.

scruffy · May 14, 2009, 05:42 AM // 05:42

am i the only one who liked playing in the defensive webs? to me the defense is there so that you actually have to do something that takes skill in order to make progress, when there is no defense like right now all you have is warriors running around training shit with lingering curse

its more fun to find the window of opportunity than just constantly pumping out damage over a period of time until monks wipe

actually that isnt true, both playstyles can be fun but not when they are shoved down your throat so that its the only thing you can play or risk being at a disadvantage, there needs to be an equilibrium between the different builds

this game is only fun when there is variation between builds and strategies that can be used successfully

IMMORTAlMITCH · May 14, 2009, 06:13 AM // 06:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by scruffy

am i the only one who liked playing in the defensive webs? to me the defense is there so that you actually have to do something that takes skill in order to make progress, when there is no defense like right now all you have is warriors running around training shit with lingering curse

its more fun to find the window of opportunity than just constantly pumping out damage over a period of time until monks wipe

It was 'fun' until people (rawr) started running flags with warriors all match and balled your NPCs better at VoD.

tigros · May 14, 2009, 07:26 AM // 07:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

It was 'fun' until people (rawr) started running flags with warriors all match and balled your NPCs better at VoD.

Can't really blame them, they sacrificed damage for defense during the match in order to win when they were in control, that is, at VoD.

Kaon · May 14, 2009, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by scruffy

am i the only one who liked playing in the defensive webs? to me the defense is there so that you actually have to do something that takes skill in order to make progress, when there is no defense like right now all you have is warriors running around training shit with lingering curse

its more fun to find the window of opportunity than just constantly pumping out damage over a period of time until monks wipe

actually that isnt true, both playstyles can be fun but not when they are shoved down your throat so that its the only thing you can play or risk being at a disadvantage, there needs to be an equilibrium between the different builds

this game is only fun when there is variation between builds and strategies that can be used successfully

Yes you were. The game got narrowed down to: Shut down aegis and within that time throw all your damage at them and hope for a wipe. Boring.

IMMORTAlMITCH · May 14, 2009, 12:01 PM // 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigros

Can't really blame them, they sacrificed damage for defense during the match in order to win when they were in control, that is, at VoD.

That's not the point, it's a very boring strategy and one of the many flaws of VoD.

Phe Belladona · May 14, 2009, 03:19 PM // 15:19

i loved playing the defensive web meta, interupt DA, Ward Melee, Divert BSurge, Divert SoD and interupt 2 Aegises kept the mesmer multitasking and fun - this ofc was only possible cause of pleak at the time - with surge and burn you'd attack the bsurgers energy if having troubles diverting. it gave great coordination between your ranger and mesmer and games didnt rest on luck skills like getting pblocks on nonfastcast skills at random points. Surge and Burn then coupled as important spike assists as well as pressure tools getting important kills through the defense.

this was my fave meta and you spent the first couple of mins getting the enemy teams cycle on your brain while pressuring their energy and just as you have control of when they put their defenses up you'd knock them all down and push, i really hate the current "rape them in 2mins or you're all going to die" meta. ofc this was pretty hard vs good teams but it should be and gave lots of adren pumping moments.

the things i really didnt like were Shields Up! (sometimes 2 copies!) and then FC ward, but there were some really fun and decent games in there - ofc i am speaking from an unblockable shutdown chars perspective i can imagine how annoying it was for rangers and warriors would prolly get upset, but this is when warrior brought shock and dischop so could actually shut down too instead of thumping their keyboard for big damage.

surge and burn will always be my fave mesmer bar but its just not usable in a non spike build with all the resolve hexers and A/P spikes atm - and dont think these builds wont be happy existing after the update.

Magikarp · May 14, 2009, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeHoMaR

People don't get the point of balancing. Balancing is NOT for actually balance the game, the real purpose is to keep people playing the game and trying different builds. Indeed, they are unbalancing the game on purpose with every skill update (not a sarcasm)

qft 123456789

Burton2000 · May 14, 2009, 04:03 PM // 16:03

People who want VoD back must be crazy.

Do you not remember rawr vs KMD on uncharted isle mAT final? That match just summed up why VoD was a bad mechanic and one team losing because they were unlucky to start on the wrong side of the map.

Reverend Dr · May 14, 2009, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Honorable defensive web vs honorable defensive web was okay. But the problems of a meta normally are not reflected in the gimped honorable versions.

ensoriki · May 15, 2009, 12:03 AM // 00:03

I disagree with OP.
OP said crap like W/A.
Shock Axe isn't "Dead" it still works.

Rangers aren't shadows.
Rangers have a variety of options, and the options they had before to some extent are still there. Blackout is gone but other things remain.

StManTiS · May 15, 2009, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edwards

Higher and more sustained damage is boring. Modern day GW is a race to see who can out-damage their opponent first. GW used to be about scoring kills through creating skillfully coordinated and executed windows of shutdown to land your damage, or by applying pressure not through extremely high amounts of damage, but through disruption and skillful play.

im not sure what you're getting at here? Both ways you kill people through high amounts of damage, one way they cant heal through it as fast. Also outputting large amounts of damage over a sustained period of time requires much more skill (energy management, skill choice, etc) than a lockout (press shutdown button, spike, win)

Quote:

Why fake a spike when prots help your PoD powered spike go through?

Why bring a mesmer to mess with monks when you can render them almost useless by using LC?

Why shutdown monks during a spike when your WE + SoH powered warriors with a FC snare and a Mel's Shot ranger can carry out a lethal spike every ~5 seconds?

Im not entirely sure if these are rhetorical or badly formed, and they dont really serve much of a purpose (not my omission of any offensive language)

Quote:

Bars like those make the game much simpler, and much more boring.

They make the game more efficient, making it boring would be having healers heal for double what they heal now and raising the duration on guardian to 10 seconds.

tigros · May 15, 2009, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

That's not the point, it's a very boring strategy and one of the many flaws of VoD.

Everything is relative. For some people it might be boring or retarded, for others it might be a means of winning in adverse conditions. Right now, the tiebreaker is for some people stupid or whatever, while for others simply a way of ending a game in their favor, even though they might be unfavored otherwise.

You know, in chess there's a saying: "the game awaits only the mistake of the opponent."

In reality, all these situations are just contexts that need to be taken into account when working on your way to the victory. It all depends on you if you wanna play for the show or for the win.

As the soccer game is played for goals and not for spectacular moments, by the same token in GW you can say that the game is played to kill the opposing Guild Lord or 60dp the opposing team, not to radiate honor all around you.

IMMORTAlMITCH · May 15, 2009, 09:46 AM // 09:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigros

Everything is relative. For some people it might be boring or retarded, for others it might be a means of winning in adverse conditions. Right now, the tiebreaker is for some people stupid or whatever, while for others simply a way of ending a game in their favor, even though they might be unfavored otherwise.

You know, in chess there's a saying: "the game awaits only the mistake of the opponent."

In reality, all these situations are just contexts that need to be taken into account when working on your way to the victory. It all depends on you if you wanna play for the show or for the win.

As the soccer game is played for goals and not for spectacular moments, by the same token in GW you can say that the game is played to kill the opposing Guild Lord or 60dp the opposing team, not to radiate honor all around you.

It's called PvP not PvNpcs, that you need to kill a guild lord fair enough, that people made entire builds around being able to farm the ball of NPCs better is simply retarded.