Curse

Vanquisher · Jun 03, 2009, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Mantra of Resolve really doesn't need to die. What should be looked at far more closely is the reason why people are being forced to bring Mantra of Resolve. It's a much more pressing concern.

moriz · Jun 03, 2009, 11:24 PM // 23:24

weaken knees needs to have its duration reduced dramatically, and its damage per second moving increased to compensate. it's too powerful right now, given its ridiculous duration.

Krill · Jun 03, 2009, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Mantra of Resolve really doesn't need to die. What should be looked at far more closely is the reason why people are being forced to bring Mantra of Resolve.

Because it's ez mode to use hum sig / backfire / VoR with mantra?

Vanquisher · Jun 04, 2009, 12:01 AM // 00:01

... Or is it more the trend away from (almost) all forms of shutdown other than interrupts other than shut down that make any cast over 2 second a liability to run at the stand? Hell, the fact people are forced to bring it to let them get their skills through is a mere sign that something needs to be thought about in terms of interrupts vs other shutdown. Sure, some of those skills might need changing also, but come on.

Lishy · Jun 04, 2009, 03:45 AM // 03:45

ROJ needs a pvp nerf.
While for PvE, "I wuv my RoJ", for PvP it's a damn bad problem.
With two fast casting mesmers paird with a PS sin, you pretty much have AoE 1 hit ko if the enemy gets knocked down.
Any spike of just 2 skill used that deals over 500 damage is problematic.

Darth The Xx · Jun 04, 2009, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

ROJ needs a pvp nerf.
While for PvE, "I wuv my RoJ", for PvP it's a damn bad problem.
With two fast casting mesmers paird with a PS sin, you pretty much have AoE 1 hit ko if the enemy gets knocked down.
Any spike of just 2 skill used that deals over 500 damage is problematic.

PS + Trampling Ox and 2 RoJs ... I count 4 skills not 2. Also this takes up 3 player slots doesn't look worth it to me.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jun 04, 2009, 07:18 AM // 07:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

... Or is it more the trend away from (almost) all forms of shutdown other than interrupts other than shut down that make any cast over 2 second a liability to run at the stand? Hell, the fact people are forced to bring it to let them get their skills through is a mere sign that something needs to be thought about in terms of interrupts vs other shutdown. Sure, some of those skills might need changing also, but come on.

The bar works fine without Resolve btw, you just gotta not suck and fake out some interrupts, especially with hum sig this is piss easy.

Resolve turns the bar into a brainless spam build with PBlock being the only way to stop it.

Interrupts are really fine tbh, the only ones that I'd support a nerf to are PBlock, Shock (if you count it as interrupt) and possibly a (very slight) nerf to the 5r ranger interrupts.

People got away with a lot more when PLeak was -19 and had a 12-15 second recharge.

I do agree with you that other forms of shutdown are a bit lacking though, Diversion/Shame is still powerful but I'd support buffs to skills like Blackout, Gale (be very careful with this one though) and Energy Denial in general.

Though with the way backlines are set up at the moment Energy Denial is just a lot less effective than with the old boon prots, change/buff some skills to have effects like -x energy regeneration so denying someone of energy actually means they can't cast very often rather than they can still cast every few seconds cause of superpowered 5 energy skills and no way to attack their energy regeneration.

Sun Fired Blank · Jun 04, 2009, 08:24 AM // 08:24

The problem is that in one respect, interrupts are good for the game. I'm all for things which encourage active play, complicated micro, and high field awareness, even if it generates a relatively unyielding entry barrier for newer players. The major problem with interrupts is the same reason that counterspells in Magic: the Gathering have made blue such a historically dominant color; you can trade an interrupt or counterspell for anything you can hit, regardless of the cost disparity. In the case of ranger interrupts, the completely disposable nature of Savage and to a lesser extent D-Shot means that you can almost always afford to fire them predictively, reflexively, or randomly on a caster to hasten poison spread. And in the case of mesmer interrupts, you simply gain too much when you hit P-Leak and P-Drain.

P-Block is unique as it's never a disproportionate trade on paper, and it usually has dubious value when you sink it into midliners as they can potentially just burst output after the duration expires, but the tactical windows it can create are too sizeable.

urania · Jun 04, 2009, 11:51 AM // 11:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

... Or is it more the trend away from (almost) all forms of shutdown other than interrupts other than shut down that make any cast over 2 second a liability to run at the stand? Hell, the fact people are forced to bring it to let them get their skills through is a mere sign that something needs to be thought about in terms of interrupts vs other shutdown. Sure, some of those skills might need changing also, but come on.

if they had to nerf mantra of conc and glyph of conc, they better do their job thoroughly and kill mantra of resolve along with pious too.
else the former 2 skills ought to be reverted.

i mean, i know the reason why ppl bring it, but that alone doesn't mean the skill is fine as it is~ and yeah, skills like VoR desperately need changing - in a stack with, for example, backfire or empathy/insidious, its pretty ridiculous. And if you don't build wars mantra with either wild blow, wild throw or whirling axe, you're fighting at pretty heavy disadvantage.

Morgoth the dark · Jun 04, 2009, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth The Xx

PS + Trampling Ox and 2 RoJs ... I count 4 skills not 2. Also this takes up 3 player slots doesn't look worth it to me.

you have problems with reading right? RoJ x2 = over 500 dmg = 2 skills?

Krill · Jun 04, 2009, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

... Or is it more the trend away from (almost) all forms of shutdown other than interrupts other than shut down that make any cast over 2 second a liability to run at the stand? Hell, the fact people are forced to bring it to let them get their skills through is a mere sign that something needs to be thought about in terms of interrupts vs other shutdown. Sure, some of those skills might need changing also, but come on.

The way I see it dangerous skills like diversion, backfire and hum sig are balanced by their difficulty to cast, hum sig in particular because it can't be half casted obviously. I know it's really annoying being camped but it's equally annoying when your job is to interrupt those skills at least part of the time so your backline doesn't get shit on all day. The negative effect of resolve doesn't even justify wasting an interrupt.

kedde · Jun 04, 2009, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Give it a higher cost so it'll be a choice whether your mesmer sucks enough to warrant bringing it to get those skills off.
Or bring another better skill that does more.

And then buff the more interesting types of shutdown that can indirectly affect it.

Vanquisher · Jun 04, 2009, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Interrupts are really fine tbh, the only ones that I'd support a nerf to are PBlock, Shock (if you count it as interrupt) and possibly a (very slight) nerf to the 5r ranger interrupts.

Because anythin 2c or over not being viable is clearly good, right? And making an entire class completely dependant on ping is even better. Most could definately use some form of recharge nerf so that it's actually somewhat viable to run anything over a 1c (this includes Savage, Magebane, and D-Shot). Not that they have to be big, but they realistically need to happen. The is a very good reason why fast casting gets abused, and why people are forced into running Resolve now. I'm not saying that hex stacking is even remotely good, especially in this current balance state, but interrupts are definately far too strong, both in comparison to other forms of shutdown and even with (only difference is that then those other forms of shutdown would also be ridiculously strong).

scruffy · Jun 04, 2009, 04:38 PM // 16:38

nerf shock...are you on crack? aura of stab and balanced stance and brace yourself just arent enough i suppose

jaximus · Jun 04, 2009, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

The is a very good reason why fast casting gets abused, and why people are forced into running Resolve now.

noone is being forced to use them. they are choosing to run it on bars with vor, backfire, and sig of hum. i will discount hum sig here cuz being a sig with no energy cost, you can easily cancel it randomly to avoid potential interruption. vor and backfire are very dangerous hexes and with pnh being less rediculous now, hex removal is a bit harder to come by. that makes these hexes very high priority for interruption and also activation. therefore they use resolve to assure that these spells get casted. as for the counter with p block, i believe this is healthy for the game. vor and backfire are fire and forget hexes, which there are far too many of already(necros) and the mantra allows them to thoughtlessly be casted and not fear interruption. this is bad for the game.

along the lines of ranger interrupts, i believe that d shot, although very powerful, and sav shot are alright as they are. they are balanced with the flight time, the bow type they demand, and the potential for obstruction. magebane is also a great skill, but i feel it should be able to interrupt through the mantra. seeing as it is an elite and the mantra is not.

to sum it up, skills are balanced on cast time in relation to the damage they do, or the shutdown they provide. therefore things that forgo the cast time by making it not matter (mantra) are pulling these skills out of balance.

TheDarkshineKnight · Jun 04, 2009, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

The problem is that in one respect, interrupts are good for the game. I'm all for things which encourage active play, complicated micro, and high field awareness, even if it generates a relatively unyielding entry barrier for newer players. The major problem with interrupts is the same reason that counterspells in Magic: the Gathering have made blue such a historically dominant color; you can trade an interrupt or counterspell for anything you can hit, regardless of the cost disparity. In the case of ranger interrupts, the completely disposable nature of Savage and to a lesser extent D-Shot means that you can almost always afford to fire them predictively, reflexively, or randomly on a caster to hasten poison spread. And in the case of mesmer interrupts, you simply gain too much when you hit P-Leak and P-Drain.

P-Block is unique as it's never a disproportionate trade on paper, and it usually has dubious value when you sink it into midliners as they can potentially just burst output after the duration expires, but the tactical windows it can create are too sizeable.

I just want to point out that counterspells aren't the reason for blue's dominance. The massive amounts of card advantage generated by draw spells such as Brainstorm, Gush, and Fact or Fiction is. Blue can get to the cards it needs quicker than any other color. In fact, when ot comes down to it, there are only really two absolutely amazing counterspells: Force of Will and Mana Drain.

Phe Belladona · Jun 04, 2009, 06:35 PM // 18:35

cancelling sig hum gives wider windows of opertunity for the elite its targeting to be cast, so its benefit from resolve is turning the lockdown from 12/27-30 to 12/22 which as you can see is pretty significant.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jun 04, 2009, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Because anythin 2c or over not being viable is clearly good, right?

2c were viable before when interrupts were just as strong if not stronger than they are now.

The only thing that really hurts casters is PBlock, PLeak isn't anywhere close to what it used to be and with glyph lesser energy on your bar (which every stand ele should have) I don't see how this can even be a problem at all.

Ranger interrupts are a bit too spammable though and with Aegis gone they might be a little over the top so I would support a small nerf (1-2s to the recharge of the 5r ones, keep dshot as it is)

Quote:

The is a very good reason why fast casting gets abused

Sure, it's better to not get interrupted than to risk getting interrupted, 9 out of 10 times the templates being ran on Me/X are perfectly viable on X/Y just strictly worse as bypassing interrupts pretty much completely > 1-2 extra attribute points.

Make fast casting work on mesmer spells/skills only (with the possible exception of hardrezzes).

Quote:

and why people are forced into running Resolve now.

No one forces anyone to run resolve, the main reasons people run it is because the mindlessness that comes with it as well as the bigger uptime on hum sig because there's no need to fake it (like Phe described already).

I always have to laugh when people complain about dom mesmer interrupts being too powerful, when is the last time someone won a monthly using a dom mesmer (non VoR)? 9 months ago or something? and before that probably even longer ago.

I Angra I · Jun 04, 2009, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Mind blast should be changed back to its original form; before the buff, and before the nerf. Maybe even a bit less energy gain though too.

Aura resto needs a bit of a nerf, I liked the idea someone said about making the 1 energy gain at only a higher e-storage spec.

LC and weaken knees both need to be reduced in power, 5e, short recharge, super long duration is pretty ridiculous. I think faintheartedness could use a nerf too.

Either VoR or mantra of resolve, and sig hum need to be toned down also. Though honestly I think the template on its own is actually fine, combined with other overload hexes like LC and such, it becomes way too effective.

Bobby2 · Jun 04, 2009, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Angra I

LC and weaken knees both need to be reduced in power, 5e, short recharge, super long duration is pretty ridiculous. I think faintheartedness could use a nerf too.

Seconded. FGJ!.