Curse

Xyon the Greatest · Jun 02, 2009, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by arienrhode

1. The builds prism is being used for (HA prism healer and GvG flagger) have no problem spec'ing 13/14 in ES for prism. In fact it's useful because this gives them a massive energy battery to draw from when they need it to hold npc's or help out at the stand, which can be recovered fairly quickly while flagging.

2. No it's not terribly difficult to fake out prism for usage as anti-spike or they might have to be using it on recharge anyway under pressure for energy. However, it's still pretty damn good in a lot of situations, is the only skill of it's type and instant activation.

It's the little unforeseen things with this skill. I'll give you one example, running soul binders in HA should be an easy way to get some pressure going against a sway backline with double PwK's. No problem though if you drop PwK out of prism, all damage negated.

Ahhh, dont flame me, you can't always d-shot everything :P

Dinkytowner · Jun 02, 2009, 05:49 PM // 17:49

I'd actually like to see them shake up the monk meta a little. They could (I can't believe I'm saying this) hit WoH again to move it back to the pack, or buff another healing elite to make it compareable. Honestly, I'm kinda underwheled by WoH after the last nerf that it shouldn't be too hard for something else to get some play.

Crap like Life Sheath, Boon Sig, D-shot, and Hammer Bash has been making it on my monk bars lately simply because I'm fiercly bored with the same old WoH bar and need some entertainment.

ele pl · Jun 02, 2009, 06:42 PM // 18:42

@up

I'd like to see a ZB buff, to encourage running full prot bars in lower pvp, like RA. 7 sec guardian is not a nice advantage. I want to see it heals for moar hp or like 8-9 energy back.

lutz · Jun 02, 2009, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dinkytowner

I'd actually like to see them shake up the monk meta a little. They could (I can't believe I'm saying this) hit WoH again to move it back to the pack, or buff another healing elite to make it compareable. Honestly, I'm kinda underwheled by WoH after the last nerf that it shouldn't be too hard for something else to get some play.

Crap like Life Sheath, Boon Sig, D-shot, and Hammer Bash has been making it on my monk bars lately simply because I'm fiercly bored with the same old WoH bar and need some entertainment.

The point is, they can't and shouldn't move the monk meta to "your elite skill is your entire bar". This makes monking both brainless and makes other skills extraordinarily imbalanced, such as Signet of Humility. Elites on monk bars should do what they used to do - complement the bar - rather than defining the entire role.

Xyon the Greatest · Jun 02, 2009, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by ele pl

@up

I'd like to see a ZB buff, to encourage running full prot bars in lower pvp, like RA. 7 sec guardian is not a nice advantage. I want to see it heals for moar hp or like 8-9 energy back.

protection is protection, healing is healing.

If a monk was buffed on both, they would be way too overpowered.

Choose your side... oh ya and ZB is already a very good elite to keep up your health and have energy to maintain your prots and almost as powerful as WoH now since of the nerf.

Tearz1993 · Jun 02, 2009, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

The point is, they can't and shouldn't move the monk meta to "your elite skill is your entire bar". This makes monking both brainless and makes other skills extraordinarily imbalanced, such as Signet of Humility. Elites on monk bars should do what they used to do - complement the bar - rather than defining the entire role.

This.

Ever since LoD (could even argue Blessed Light), elites started becoming more and more important, which shouldn't be the case. I actually like bars like the SoD monk (note: not saying SoD was balanced) because they could still fulfill their role if SoD was gone.

Dinkytowner · Jun 02, 2009, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

The point is, they can't and shouldn't move the monk meta to "your elite skill is your entire bar".

I agree completely. I guess I'm just looking for something to switch up the meta a little. Moving WoH around a little or buffing another healing elite isn't really going to make your elite your entire bar. I'm just suggesting a little variety and and elite happened to be my example. The problem is that there isn't a vaible alternative. There are a handful of monk templates/elites that are far and away better than anything else out there. For example, I really enjoy running Boon Sig from time to time. It turns out changing things up occasinally is entertaining. Unfortunately if I want to win on a frequent basis, I probably shouldn't run it much outside of JQ or AB. It's just not as good as a standard WoH bar for TA/GvG.

What I'm looking for is variety. Problem is that when the devs look for variety you get dartboard buffs and end up with a LC/PnH meta and a bunch of upset players. W/E, I'm just throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks. I'm not ruining a game for a couple thousand people for several months.

kedde · Jun 02, 2009, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Quote:

Linkusmax

Having 3-4 deb shots would be a good amount of edenial.
However, 4 rangers will output absolutely no pressure to take advantage of the energy loss they'd be causing.

So long as there are no other good sources of edenial, it's just not useful enough to bother building around when everything else is just more powerful, and in particular, direct.

TironPlyth · Jun 03, 2009, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tearz1993

Ever since LoD (could even argue Blessed Light), elites started becoming more and more important, which shouldn't be the case. I actually like bars like the SoD monk (note: not saying SoD was balanced) because they could still fulfill their role if SoD was gone.

I would argue that the monk meta has always revolved around its elite. Before Blessed Light the first true stabilized monk meta was Boon Prot, which more or less required elite energy management to prove useful (which coupled with fast, hard to disrupt spells also resulted in Energy Denial being run in the midline). While it could certainly fulfill its roles with MoR or OoB shut down, it is in many ways comparable to the WoH bar, which still can make red-bars-go-up without WoH (Patient) but loses most of its effectiveness. I would even say that an OoB Boon Prot who had his elite removed from play was hurt far more than a WoH, who can still fulfill utility roles rather well.

I can't think of a single monk meta outside of SoD in which the elite didn't carry the bar, to be honest. Monk bars have always been built around the elite. Most bars for any class have been.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kedde

Having 3-4 deb shots would be a good amount of edenial.
However, 4 rangers will output absolutely no pressure to take advantage of the energy loss they'd be causing.

2 or 3 deb shots, spreading conditions and tossing interrupts, coupled with 2 warriors could potentially cause massive pressure, especially with Aegis now being non-existent and ranger's new found ability to spike (Burning Arrow and Melandru's Shot). There just isn't as much physical hate in this game as there used to be. Of course, you'd have to force 8v8, and with casters as powerful as they are you better interrupt well.

Krill · Jun 03, 2009, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xyon the Greatest

Ahhh, dont flame me, you can't always d-shot everything :P

You mean divert it

Prism needs the same treatment MoI and HC got...disables your non-elementalist skills 10s. It's a crappy fix but what can you do about all these retarded buffs =/

Animate · Jun 03, 2009, 03:41 AM // 03:41

What makes you think there will be a Skill Update in June?
As far as I am informed, they happen once every 3 months since May.
Would be cool if I'm wrong though.

Linkusmax · Jun 03, 2009, 10:56 AM // 10:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by distilledwill

Linkusmax, the thing is that people are much better (at least at the high end) at avoiding edenial (high and low energy sets, taking emanagement skills etc) and the debshots arent enough to be a great trouble. Thumpers are outclassed by most war builds, sword for pressure, hammer for knockdown. Also, pets no longer leave exploitable corpses.

Debshot was used on the old expert's dexterity ranger (when it gave +2 to marks and had a +33 IAS - goodtimes) but now its a little underpowered in 8v8.

In 4v4 it can be really good, in TA I often take debshot on my magebane ranger to hit a monk after ive seen him spam for a bit.

Goes to show how long its been, I didn't even realise that they no longer left exploitable corpses.This certainly makes a lot of old builds I used to play completely unviable (2 thumpers, 2 Fire Eles with EW and a TF/MM Necro).

Obviously Deb-shots are not what you base a build around, they only were for a short amount of time just before they were linked to their attribute. But in combination with a high Pressure build (conditions + hexes + Physical) you would think them to be quite helpful. Especially because the actual rangers give you a high ability to split 6-2 or 5-3.

Maybe I am too far out of GvG to just slide back in to it.

I spose I just need time to adjust before I will be able to move out of the low end PvP again (Irresistible Blow seems to scare and confuise the monks). Not to mention finding a guild which plays in my time zone (GMT+10)

Krill · Jun 03, 2009, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Animate

What makes you think there will be a Skill Update in June?
As far as I am informed, they happen once every 3 months since May.
Would be cool if I'm wrong though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linsey Murdock

I'm meeting with Izzy tomorrow (hopefully) to discuss possible balance issues I have observed and when or if we will address them

Might be overly optimistic for a skill balance next Thursday since skill balances are allegedly vetted.

It would be nice if they took a systematic approach to balancing hexes rather than just doing a bunch of random crap or only doing a couple. For instance:

Empathy (PvP) - Fixed 10s duration, change to damages when you hit with an attack.
Visions of Regret - 3s cast

Weaken Knees - Fixed 10s duration, scale damage up to 17 @ 14 curses
Lingering Curse - Scale duration down to 20s @ 14 curses
Suffering - Lower cost to 10e, scale duration to 20s @ 14 curses
Faintheartedness - Lower cost to 5e, fixed 10s duration
Insidious Parasite - Lower cost to 10e, fixed 10s duration
Defile Defenses - Fixed 10s duration, scale damage down to 84 @ 14 curses

Nimble Night · Jun 03, 2009, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Perhaps the most effective hit to the VoR mesmer bar would be to nerf mantra of resolve.

I would like to see lingering's cast time increased to 2 seconds, or energy cost upped to 15. I feel it just needs to be forcefully removed from the metagame. I would also like to see weaken knees toned down a little. I don't think its that overpowered, I just dislike the concept of punishing kiting.

With hexes toned down we can nerf PnH to hell and deal with hexes without mass removal.

I will also echo the general consensus that ether prism needs some sort of drawback. As compared to offering of blood/spirit, it is grossly overpowered.

lutz · Jun 03, 2009, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by arienrhode

Might be overly optimistic for a skill balance next Thursday since skill balances are allegedly vetted.

It would be nice if they took a systematic approach to balancing hexes rather than just doing a bunch of random crap or only doing a couple. For instance:

Empathy (PvP) - Fixed 10s duration, change to damages when you hit with an attack.
Visions of Regret - 3s cast

Weaken Knees - Fixed 10s duration, scale damage up to 17 @ 14 curses
Lingering Curse - Scale duration down to 20s @ 14 curses
Suffering - Lower cost to 10e, scale duration to 20s @ 14 curses
Faintheartedness - Lower cost to 5e, fixed 10s duration
Insidious Parasite - Lower cost to 10e, fixed 10s duration
Defile Defenses - Fixed 10s duration, scale damage down to 84 @ 14 curses

Hexes shouldn't be nerfed out of the game like that. The point of many of those hexes is supposed to be a long-lasting degeneration skill with some sort of extra drawback. Some just need to be toned down just a little bit (Weaken Knees), and we need better ways to deal with AoE hex removal, or something needs to be done about the AoE spammability of Lingering.

Signet of Humility needs to be balanced because of its ability to shut down meta monks so well. Either shift monk metas away from their elite, or kill Signet of Humility. This problem is even worse thanks to Mantra of Resolve.

Krill · Jun 03, 2009, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Hexes shouldn't be nerfed out of the game like that. The point of many of those hexes is supposed to be a long-lasting degeneration skill with some sort of extra drawback. Some just need to be toned down just a little bit (Weaken Knees), and we need better ways to deal with AoE hex removal, or something needs to be done about the AoE spammability of Lingering.

I don't think that's nerfing them out of the game, it's making them more active use. If you buff a skill with AoE hex removal it will just be the same as PnH, bring it and you have a major advantage against hexes, don't bring it and you lose to hexes. The concept of party wide hex pressure has always been retarded because once stuff like LC, faint, soul bind, rising bile etc. get nestled in under cover hexes there isn't shit you can do about until they expire...unless you bring an elite skill that is useless against anything but hex pressure (e.g. divert hexes). PnH on it's own doesn't cut it anymore either because I've seen good monks with PnH and deny still get pressured out by hexes.

lutz · Jun 03, 2009, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by arienrhode

I don't think that's nerfing them out of the game, it's making them more active use. If you buff a skill with AoE hex removal it will just be the same as PnH, bring it and you have a major advantage against hexes, don't bring it and you lose to hexes. The concept of party wide hex pressure has always been retarded because once stuff like LC, faint, soul bind, rising bile etc. get nestled in under cover hexes there isn't shit you can do about until they expire...unless you bring an elite skill that is useless against anything but hex pressure (e.g. divert hexes). PnH on it's own doesn't cut it anymore either because I've seen good monks with PnH and deny still get pressured out by hexes.

PnH isn't very good against hex pressure teams.

Krill · Jun 03, 2009, 09:14 PM // 21:14

What are your other options? If you don't have a ridiculous amount of hex removal and go up against LC, WK and VoR you're just shit out of luck. Having to adjust a backline and possibly some midliners that much is the epitome of build wars, isn't it?

Osiris_sam · Jun 03, 2009, 09:55 PM // 21:55

i absolutely agree, a lot of hexes need to be toned down, even if its just by a small amount. The problem arises when they are toned down too much, shifting team's attention to more powerful builds (Spikewars?), Hex pressure has to be viable, but then not overpowered. Lingering curse is a good concept, but (probably) rushed into the game, causing the inevitable inbalance.
Wastrels worry is also a problem area... good concept, cover hex with short recharge, but does too much damage, very punishing to wait it out, and often (unless the mesmer is terrible) punishing to cast through (backfire, visions, diversion, shame etc...)

Mantra of resolve is another problem area, imo, either accepting that you cannot interupt the target, or bringing pblock (build wars) to counter it.

prism definitly needs to be looked at, maybe adding skill disable, or prehaps upping recharge (probably with an increased energy return), but im no expert.

I would like to see the monk meta shifted away from its elites, or at least some more elites brought into play, but thats not for this update 2bh. (boon signet is a really fun skill to use, not sure why)

urania · Jun 03, 2009, 10:04 PM // 22:04

mantra of resolve needs to die with mantra of conc and glyph of conc. then ofc, pious conc needs a higher recharge too and possibly higher energy cost/lesser duration.

On a side note, I find it pretty funny and a tad sad how, yet again, the build "migration" from TA to s bigger scale format (obviously gvg) has happened. Welcome to gvg, hexes and eles!
Now I'm just waiting for the newest triple hexer build setup with necros (of course, lc and weaken knees) using pets and barbs along with soulbarbs and a VoR mes to complete the hex spam to move over to gvg too. I mean, warriors are SO yesterday.