Curse

DreamWind · Jun 06, 2009, 12:41 AM // 00:41

I find it hilarious when people suggest "small changes" to skills they don't like, which they claim would either tone down the skill or make the skill playable, but would actually destroy the skill from all play or make the skill overpowered. There's no such thing as a small change in the world of Guild Wars balance anymore.

lutz · Jun 06, 2009, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I find it hilarious when people suggest "small changes" to skills they don't like, which they claim would either tone down the skill or make the skill playable, but would actually destroy the skill from all play or make the skill overpowered. There's no such thing as a small change in the world of Guild Wars balance anymore.

Yes, there is.
Reducing durations by 5-10% is small.

Zzes Tyan · Jun 06, 2009, 02:43 AM // 02:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

anyone ever heard of [OnoZ]?

yea, its a terrible HA guild

God_Hand · Jun 06, 2009, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by OP

Ranger

Savage Shot - 10e 1/2c 7r

Distracting Shot - 5e 1/2c 12r

Magebane Shot - 10e 1/2c 7r

These three were put on here out of spite, am I right?

uzumaki · Jun 06, 2009, 04:36 AM // 04:36

take away aoe effect lingering and ill be happy

nerf pb and ill quit the game for good T_T

TironPlyth · Jun 06, 2009, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

These three were put on here out of spite, am I right?

Being able to spam an interrupt every 5 seconds is balanced, am I right? What about using one just to spread poison more quickly?

Quote:

Originally Posted by uzumaki

nerf pb and ill quit the game for good T_T

The suggestion isn't necessarily a nerf, as it also reduces its cost and recharge. What the change would really do is make it so Power Blocking a monk creates a window of opportunity instead of a hole in the wall.

@lutz

Regarding Mind Blast and Aura of Restortion- do you think that E/Mes will be fine if you make them run a major rune? -35 HP isn't that big of a deal on a character with Distortion, unless you have DP built up. Coupled with the fact that it would increase their damage marginally and I would say that's hardly even a nerf. Unless you mean to make Mind Blast require 15 Fire for 8 energy and have a three second recharge? Aura of Restortion - should one skill function as energy management, a passive self-heal and an amazing cover enchantment? The last one wouldn't be an issue if it weren't for the power of Attunements, but nerfing those would force every Elementalist to dedicate two slots to passive energy management.

As for Weaken Knees, the skill simply should not retain its current functionality. Punishing movement is an awful mechanic. Unless the functionality is changed I can't see a middle ground between the skill being used and the skill being overpowered.

Sk8tborderx · Jun 06, 2009, 06:24 AM // 06:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

These three were put on here out of spite, am I right?

Most people agree that the interupts need a longer recharge because they are too spammable, which is why it is on the list.

Coast · Jun 06, 2009, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

If by fun, u mean even more buildwarsing and skill abuse, yes.

someone likes those 2 things a tad too much, i'd say.

moreover, what the game currently needs isn't a zillion amount of random buffs just for the sake of so-called fun , but valid nerfs to the current broken ones to get rid of the stupid power creep.

on a side note, his post is an overkill in every possible aspect. one of it is its massive length. rest has already been mentioned.

What are u talking about? People will always choose the best builds, skills around to win(along with their own input to win games).
Therefor I see no diff in fixing the current brokes ones since other ones would come out next month anyway.
Not all skills I summed up were random and they been made so powerfull so that people would at least have xx possibilities for different builds instead of the few ones that get to mat, laddergames now
Don't see why u prefer playing vs like 3 builds( balancedhexes(lc, wk), m blast spam, physical) instead of 8+ that can win u games too(hexes, spikes, physical, splits[uni, me for gold again!!<3] yada yada

lutz · Jun 06, 2009, 08:19 AM // 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by TironPlyth

Being able to spam an interrupt every 5 seconds is balanced, am I right? What about using one just to spread poison more quickly?

The suggestion isn't necessarily a nerf, as it also reduces its cost and recharge. What the change would really do is make it so Power Blocking a monk creates a window of opportunity instead of a hole in the wall.

@lutz

Regarding Mind Blast and Aura of Restortion- do you think that E/Mes will be fine if you make them run a major rune? -35 HP isn't that big of a deal on a character with Distortion, unless you have DP built up. Coupled with the fact that it would increase their damage marginally and I would say that's hardly even a nerf. Unless you mean to make Mind Blast require 15 Fire for 8 energy and have a three second recharge? Aura of Restortion - should one skill function as energy management, a passive self-heal and an amazing cover enchantment? The last one wouldn't be an issue if it weren't for the power of Attunements, but nerfing those would force every Elementalist to dedicate two slots to passive energy management.

As for Weaken Knees, the skill simply should not retain its current functionality. Punishing movement is an awful mechanic. Unless the functionality is changed I can't see a middle ground between the skill being used and the skill being overpowered.

So we're really looking at Aura of Restoration being energy management and a passive self-healing. The self-healing is pretty decent, provided that you're casting all the time. This means that if you're trying to fall out of a base and need healing, you have to keep casting skills to maintain some sort of health regeneration.

The energy return is really what makes it runnable. Provided you're casting 1s spells forever, you gain an average of 1.5 pips of energy regeneration, which is absolutely amazing for a non-elite energy management skill that doesn't require thought, and is reliable.

It's pretty good, but it doesn't excel at anything. It requires a combination of other skills to make a bar good, like an attunement, or maybe an additional engine to make it really ridiculous. The main point is, though, that this is really just one massive enchant stack to manage energy. It's kind of like Lyssa's Aura in a sense - as long as you keep casting, it's ridiculous energy management. If it gets stripped, you're pretty screwed.

I suppose the biggest problem right now is that the fire ele can hit breakpoints for a 1e Aura, 4s Distortion and 8e Mind Blast. It just has a little too much attribute points left over to perform a task - it even doesn't need to power Distortion - it could power Heal Party, Healing Breeze, etc. I'd suggest requiring a larger attribute spread, such as a 10 or 11 Energy Storage requirement for the 1 energy on Aura of Restoration, and perhaps a 1-level shift downwards of all damage and energy on Immolate and Mind Blast. If it wants to do the fire ele job, it needs to be largely restricted to that role.

urania · Jun 06, 2009, 08:21 AM // 08:21

@Coast, actually, i prefer playing vs one build only, namely the so-called balanced, which is virtually non existent atm though. Also, this "hey guys lets buff other skillz so we have more of them on pair with the current broken onez" looks awfully familiar, but is, to be frank, just as stupid.

and as i said,
stop
trying
to
promote
buildwars.

lutz · Jun 06, 2009, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

actually, i prefer playing vs one build only, namely the so-called balanced, which is virtually non existent atm though.

and as i said,
stop
trying
to
promote
buildwars.

Sorry, you don't get to decide what design elements go into the game.

Build Wars has always been a central part of Guild Wars.

I'm just going to quote what I said earlier.

Quote:

What euros are looking for now is a way to play 8v8 stand as much as possible and push the stand team in while defending the split as minimally as possible. Unfortunately, this isn't possible with fire eles anymore. You can't simply send back the runner to deal with the split, and an additional warrior to kill the split anymore. And they don't want to bring skills that affect their 8v8 stand play.

Just because this new build opened up split to be a more viable template doesn't mean that it's incredibly imbalanced. Sure, the fire ele could use some fine tuning - parts of it are a little ridiculous - but Distortion isn't the center of the problem. In my opinion, it has to do more with the fact that the fire ele is able to spec 10 into Illusion and still afford self heals, utility (Gale, and to a small extent Meteor) and strong energy management and damage.

Sorry, but Euro honor isn't the only build in the game.

Coast · Jun 06, 2009, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

@Coast, actually, i prefer playing vs one build only, namely the so-called balanced, which is virtually non existent atm though. Also, this "hey guys lets buff other skillz so we have more of them on pair with the current broken onez" looks awfully familiar, but is, to be frank, just as stupid.

and as i said,
stop
trying
to
promote
buildwars.

Don't see why people should be limited to a small amount of builds that are effective enough to win (along with players capacities) when there are so many avaible options out around the corner.
If people want to play average 3-4diff builds then I don't know what are other skills in game are for (just to add some pixels?)

There are always been broken skills and there will always remain broken ones.
The so-called balanced is also a product of buildwars, so I don't know why u said: stop trying to promote buildwars.

Inra · Jun 06, 2009, 11:25 AM // 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

People will always choose the best builds, skills around to win(along with their own input to win games).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

Don't see why u prefer playing vs like 3 builds( balancedhexes(lc, wk), m blast spam, physical) instead of 8+ that can win u games too(hexes, spikes, physical, splits[uni, me for gold again!!<3] yada yada

So at the end even with all those theoretical bufs people would still choose 2-4 optimal builds and use them (there always would be the most optimal builds regardless all bufs/nerfs).

Coast · Jun 06, 2009, 01:46 PM // 13:46

then theres nothing wrong with buffins the skills

Killed u man · Jun 06, 2009, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

These three were put on here out of spite, am I right?

Shutdown is GOOD for the game in a way it keeps the overpowered skills in check. It keeps the "power creep" out of the game as much as possible. For example: VoR does what no mesmer could have dreamed of doing 2 years ago in terms of damage. (It can EASILY do up to 300-400 damage, on 1 target -It's AoE don't forget)

These interrupts will ALWAYS be targetted on the "key skills" on the enemy team, thus keeping them out of the game as much as possible. (Mantra prevents this now)

The problem is, however, that Savage + Dshot combo has ALWAYS recharged faster than it should have. The fact is that because these 2 skills exists, no caster pressure can exists whatsoever, unless in a redicilous form (MB distortion/VoR-mantra/...) such as necro's with multiple copies of the same elite, and enough powerfull non-elite hexes.

The fact is that 1 Ranger with these redicilously fast recharging interrupts can't only shut down the "power creep" of the enemy team, it can pretty much shut ANY caster down.

And even then, I wouldn't mind that, if not for the fact that Rangers are amazing at spreading poison, have REDICILOUS block stances (almost as good as distortion) with NO drawbacks, have insane e-management. The bar has ALWAYS been too all-round.

House Silvermoon · Jun 06, 2009, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zzes Tyan

yea, its a terrible HA guild

ur guild and leader are terrible. SCAR is terrible too.

run mathway more plz.

PS dont let pve scrubs suggest balance, it will just make things in this game worse.

God_Hand · Jun 06, 2009, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by TironPlyth

Being able to spam an interrupt every 5 seconds is balanced, am I right? What about using one just to spread poison more quickly?

Savage could use a nerf, I admit. Magebane is an ELITE however. Both Savage & MB cost 4-5 energy, depending on your breakpoint, so spamming both on recharge will quickly leave you with an empty energy bar.

Also, I heard you can block arrows.

Xyon the Greatest · Jun 06, 2009, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

Savage could use a nerf, I admit. Magebane is an ELITE however. Both Savage & MB cost 4-5 energy, depending on your breakpoint, so spamming both on recharge will quickly leave you with an empty energy bar.

Also, I heard you can block arrows.

You cant block magebane...

Coast · Jun 06, 2009, 08:20 PM // 20:20

didn't know u gotte do pvp only to mean anything in suggesting balance?

TironPlyth · Jun 06, 2009, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

Savage could use a nerf, I admit. Magebane is an ELITE however. Both Savage & MB cost 4-5 energy, depending on your breakpoint, so spamming both on recharge will quickly leave you with an empty energy bar.

Also, I heard you can block arrows.

If you were to run Magebane then you almost always would have three interrupts on your bar, so a marginal increase in recharge would be largely inconsequential if you know what you're doing. Without Aegis, there's not really an efficient way to block ranger interrupts. Stances work, but you either need to know that the ranger is watching you (which you won't, if he's good, unless you're in a split situation) or you need to expend an additional 5e and wait for its recharge every time you want to cast something important, which leaves you open to Warriors and leaves holes in your defenses unless your stance is Distortion. But Distortion is its own discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

I suppose the biggest problem right now is that the fire ele can hit breakpoints for a 1e Aura, 4s Distortion and 8e Mind Blast. It just has a little too much attribute points left over to perform a task - it even doesn't need to power Distortion - it could power Heal Party, Healing Breeze, etc. I'd suggest requiring a larger attribute spread, such as a 10 or 11 Energy Storage requirement for the 1 energy on Aura of Restoration, and perhaps a 1-level shift downwards of all damage and energy on Immolate and Mind Blast. If it wants to do the fire ele job, it needs to be largely restricted to that role.

I agree that the attribute points are far too flexible. Part of the problem is that Elementalists have been balanced with interrupts in mind. Builds and skills that enable an Elementalist to circumvent them (Distortion) result in them being overpowered (E/Ds on Burning Isle are a separate issue; their power stems from them being far more maneuverable than any other template on that map, which is the direct result of the poor implementation of lava). If all you do is take away Distortion, Elementalists will fade from the metagame until some other way to enable endless spam emerges, as the excessive buffs to Elementalist energy management skills ensure that any magic can spam effectively, recharge allowing.

The power of interrupts isn't the only problem. In Prophecies and Factions, when interrupts were just as powerful (well, after the buff) Elementalists were still used, but for utility roles. In my opinion this is because of the presence of other effective forms of shutdown - energy denial hurts Necromancers and Mesmers far more, and skill disablers (Diversion) prevented brainless spam. When there were prevalent 'soft counters' (as Ensign dubbed them in the E/Me thread) to other midliners Elementalists were more of an option, not because they were more powerful but because other midliners were less powerful.