Curse

Ensign · Jul 17, 2009, 02:12 AM // 02:12

You have no right to complain about anything balance related if you take a Warrior into random arena, fort aspenwood, or jade quarry.

God_Hand · Jul 17, 2009, 03:05 AM // 03:05

Antidote Signet, Sight Beyond Sight, Mending Touch, Plague Touch, Plague Sending, Assassin's Remedy, Dismiss Condition, Mend Ailment, Purge Conditions, Purge Signet, Remedy Signet, Smite Condition, Drain Enchantment, Gaze of Contempt, Rending Touch, Strip Enchantment, Rip Enchantment, and Rend Enchantments all say hello to you.

Jeydra · Jul 17, 2009, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonas The Keen

Even on a ranger with mend touch a decent D/P with just use disrupting throw to put blind right back on you before you can do anything anyway. I have to admit, with the +33% IAS given by Heart of Fury (which corresponds to fast blind spreading and quicker adrenaline gain), the number of cover enchants available for EDA, the spam ability of a lot of paragon attacks, coupled with the +4 energy regeneration inherent on dervishes makes the D/P blindbot pretty dang good. Bordering on overpowered, really.

You remember the time I faced you in RA where you were a Ranger with Mending Touch and I ran my usual Dual Attunements Air spammer? That game I overpowered your Mending Touch with BFlash, avoided your attempts to DShot BFlash and pretty much won the game for my team, after which you would say in AllChat that "you ele is the only one that's any good" ... why don't you call my build overpowered then?

I am not convinced the D/P Blindbot is overpowered. In fact I'm not convinced it's above average. It is open to so many counters. It's a melee counter that's not only itself vulnerable to melee hate and blocking, it is also vulnerable to enchantment hate. It does not deal much damage. It is reliant on line-of-sight. It is one-dimensional; with no physicals it is a lot weaker. There are so many problems with the build ...

... yet here we have a thread claiming it is overpowered. What the heck? No offense Lux, but it sure seems to me that you're operating under the premise that "Warriors should be able to kill everything", and anything that defends against Warriors, except possibly Guardian, is not fair play. But that's just stupid. It is because Warriors deal so much damage that D/P Blindbots are even viable, that Elementalists dedicate their elite to BSurge, that so many people bring some antimelee into RA. They have to. Without blocks and antimelee in general physicals deal too much damage to cope with.

If you say that playing antimelee is being lame, then I'll claim that playing melee itself is being lame, because you exploit a profession that deals so much more damage than everyone else.

If you say that playing melee is hard because you get so much antimelee hate dumped on you, I'll say that playing antimelee is hard because if you so much as lose concentration for a moment, the melee can get kills.

If you say that antimelee is overpowered because you're useless once it goes on you, I'll say that antimelee is underpowered because you're useless once caster hate goes on you.

I find it a source of constant annoyance how physicals complain how this is gay, that is gay, how everything that stops physicals from overloading defense and exploding everything is gay. We've seen nerfs to Necro antimelee hexes, Defensive Anthem, BSurge and BFlash, Ward against Melee, FC Snare, Faintheartedness, etc etc etc, and now other people are saying that Distortion is overpowered, Lightning Reflexes is overpowered, Balanced Stance is overpowered, gay gay gay, overpowered overpowered overpowered, please nerf so we Warriors can do our job of killing stuff, these lame people using antimelee don't take skill, please nerf so we Warriors can do our job of killing stuff, thank you.

No offense, but no thanks.

What if... · Jul 17, 2009, 06:25 AM // 06:25

There's a lot more to that post than just that story, I'm almost interested in reading a thoughtful response to it, because I partially agree that viable direct responses to melee are a must in an organized 4v4 team build.

Concerning the actual topic, I don't think any organized team is going to complain terribly much about a single D/P on an enemy team; the current TA meta brings so much stuff to shut that down it may even be a liability on many team templates.

Catchphrase · Jul 17, 2009, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Are plague sending necs extinct?

Lux Aeterna · Jul 17, 2009, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

Antidote Signet, Sight Beyond Sight, Mending Touch, Plague Touch, Plague Sending, Assassin's Remedy, Dismiss Condition, Mend Ailment, Purge Conditions, Purge Signet, Remedy Signet, Smite Condition, Drain Enchantment, Gaze of Contempt, Rending Touch, Strip Enchantment, Rip Enchantment, and Rend Enchantments all say hello to you.

This blinds far too much for any condition removal except perhaps antidote signet + foul feast + dismiss condition (condition removal on 3 party members).

The point is that it blinds extremely often, every second or less with multiple spear attacks, and and although it could be countered bringing the counter would be a liability in most situations.

Blindbot has ended my streak every single time I've run into it, and unlike blinding surge / flash it seems OP and kind of exploitive, hence posting a thread about.

I'm not complaining about antimelee in general - I changed my build up to counter it, and realize that it's perfectly fair to counter a tactic that will murder you right in front of your monk if you don't keep casting every hex.

I've been finding 1-2 of these per day, it's pretty annoying and I end up raging every time (unlike vs. air ele blindness, which is easier to counter).

{IceFire} · Jul 17, 2009, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I find it a source of constant annoyance how physicals complain how this is gay, that is gay, how everything that stops physicals from overloading defense and exploding everything is gay. We've seen nerfs to Necro antimelee hexes, Defensive Anthem, BSurge and BFlash, Ward against Melee, FC Snare, Faintheartedness, etc etc etc, and now other people are saying that Distortion is overpowered, Lightning Reflexes is overpowered, Balanced Stance is overpowered, gay gay gay, overpowered overpowered overpowered, please nerf so we Warriors can do our job of killing stuff, these lame people using antimelee don't take skill, please nerf so we Warriors can do our job of killing stuff, thank you.

faint, bsurge/flash, fc water, etc. are not nerfed, they are still perfectly viable in midline defense roles. There is alot of anti-melee in the game and there always will be, so stop acting like melee characters have it all. Warriors were always meant to do the most damage and this is why the defensive midline has come along.

Good job taking off on a random tangent that doesn't deal with this thread at all, which is Ebon Dust Aura; discussions on stances and other "gay gay overpowered gay gay" stuff (yes I am a warrior and I endorse that message) don't belong in this thread.

Anyways, I find anti-melee a source of constant annoyance

I am going to agree with the OP here, in that EDA is far too effective at spreading blind, and in RA you can't trust a teammate to be packing enchant removal, and it can't be interrupted via reflex.

However, no one cares since it's only a problem in Random Arenas.

YunSooJin · Jul 17, 2009, 09:49 AM // 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rugar

So

....you can't take any enchantment removal?

...you can't use Illusionary Weaponry?

...you can't come up with some other way to counter the problem?

stop posting

Bobby2 · Jul 17, 2009, 10:22 AM // 10:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

You have no right to complain about anything balance related if you take a Warrior into random arena, fort aspenwood, or jade quarry.

Maaaan that hurt

urania · Jul 17, 2009, 10:30 AM // 10:30

Hmm, well, I really, honestly, sincerely advise anyone, who hasnt played vs a d/p yet to not post their theory opinions on how good/bad it is (particularly Jeydra). It's better than any blinder u can possibly imagine - i have played with its predecessor, a p/d who didnt have any covers for eda, and by covering it with my own enchants, the build could still keep 2-3 physicals blinded EASILY. And I'm not talking about normal blind here...I'm talking about blinds that come with a cover like bleeding or cripple each time. In average about every 2-3 seconds. So, basically, without something like Rend enchantment or ff/draw conditions (even ff can barely upkeep with it now with its 5 recharge), you might as well resign straight off the start.
Mind that I'm not talking about RA here, but about TA. However, the same principle applies for RA too.
The thing that's broken about EDA is that it works on long range weapons - a melee blinder is far less harmful. Moreover, its 1/4 cast time is the worst - skills immune to disruption while at same time having the ability to completely negate certain classes unless you have real counters to it (and face it, with rend and gaze of contempt being nerfed bk to longer cast time there is no real non-elite enchantement removals that can actually guarantee a successful removal) it all comes down to build wars:
- Eda dervs are useless vs eleways, be it MBway or RTLway, and shove spikes, apart from the cripple and stance removal they can pack in
- It's just a fleshwound paragon is basicaly the only non shutdownable (d/p teamsusually dont have humility mesmers around) counter to it. That, or one has to completely rework the necro's bar around it - get plague signet for the daze, rend for eda - fairly useless (in comparison to elites that are more versatile and can be used in virtually all situations - e.g. wail, ce) in any situation apart from one with an EDA derv.

Brummie · Jul 17, 2009, 10:34 AM // 10:34

Why don't you just go out into RA with a E/Me Mind Blast Ele and blast the shit outta them instead of crying cos some bot took advantage over you.

Seriously just join the other people using the mind blast build and dominate RA cos it'll get nerfed soon anyway. Plus you fail at warrior if you can't cope with a bot

shoogi · Jul 17, 2009, 10:55 AM // 10:55

ok, you made a thread, it got locked, so you opened a new one (about the same subject)?

RA always was and always will be a pile of filth. As long as builds such as D/P stay within RA, nobody who has anything to do with skill updates should care.

Aera · Jul 17, 2009, 11:00 AM // 11:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brummie

Seriously just join the other people using the mind blast build and dominate RA cos it'll get nerfed soon anyway. Plus you fail at warrior if you can't cope with a bot

Please tell me how you fail at warrior if you're facing the exact counter to you.

Catchphrase · Jul 17, 2009, 11:54 AM // 11:54

There are so many ways to counter it.
Its a 20r enchantment, remove it upon casted (rending touch) and the blinder is impotent.
Go /Rt for sight beyond sight.
Hex or blind the blinder; in fact faintheartedness is sufficient to slow the blind frequency for the monk to remove it.

These are pretty common skills used in RA and TA. Honestly if a midline can't counter physicals then there is no point in having one at all.

Revelations · Jul 17, 2009, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by scruffy

enchant removal, block mechanisms and anti melee all work against this guy

or you can just be leet and dodge his spear attack skills like me

Not that I'm jumping to this guy's defense, but I'd just like to point out a couple things. The build is annoying in arenas, where you have limited enchantment removal at your disposal. The bar is also very capable carrying multiple covers, making a deep strip basically mandatory for removal of it.

Blocking is also not an issue, one of the standard attacks on that bar is Swift Javelin.

Even a lot of generic antimelee, such as faint hardly bother this guy. Spears attack fast enough that you can still get off barbed spear once every couple of seconds AT LEAST. Aside from just killing the guy (and gl with that if your team is melee heavy) or deep stripping on recharge, there is very little in the way of counters to this build. As mentioned above, forget condition removal as a counter, unless you bring several deep removals then you aren't going to touch the blinds this guy can put out.

I'm not saying the build is strong (except in arenas), but it is rather gay without rend to keep it in check. As lame as foul feast was (and still is) it was nice not seeing these guys every second match in TA.

zelgadissan · Jul 17, 2009, 03:17 PM // 15:17

I love playing the D/P on double weekends, or anymore RA Zquest days. Everybody runs in with their warriors and assassins, and it's free faction for each one.

Honestly, the D/P might be a little overpowered in a 4-man setting. But there's so many counters. Melee hate AND caster hate both rape this thing. Faintheartedness makes you attack slower than dirt (not to mention Insidious), and Backfire means setting up EDA and a cover is 200+ damage. The build's only use against casters (80%+ of RA) is crippling.

If this were to become melee attacks only, I would understand it. I just don't think it's necessary.

Oh, and RA is srs bsns

Revelations · Jul 17, 2009, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelgadissan

Melee hate AND caster hate both rape this thing.

So when you say caster hate you mean backfire? Because I honestly can't see any other viable 'caster counters' other than perhaps enchant removal. And without a deep removal you don't have a hope in hell of stripping EDA unless the guy is terrible. As mentioned above, faint isn't a problem to this guy, he's still very capable of dishing out an 8 or 9 second blind every 4 seconds or so under faint, without his IAS up. Insidious isn't so much antimelee as just generic damage. Any time that a martial character has to stop attacking because of it the game is basically over anyway.

There really aren't many viable counters to this guy. The ones theorycrafted by people in this thread really don't work so well in practice.

Aera · Jul 17, 2009, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Ok let me tell you guys one thing before more shitters keep saying the same stuff:

THE FACT THAT YOU CAN COUNTER SOMETHING DOES NOT MEAN IT'S NOT OVERPOWERED, BECAUSE EVERYTHING CAN BE COUNTERED

Lol PnH before the nerf: remove 7 hexes and conditions, you can't do shit for 7 seconds on that target. OH WAIT YOU CAN DIVERT IT SO IT MEANS IT'S NOT OVERPOWERED.

See what I mean?

zelgadissan · Jul 17, 2009, 04:24 PM // 16:24

As far as the caster hate goes, the only generic caster hate you see with any regularity in RA is Backfire and Daze (and maybe light enchant removal). Sure, there's Shame, PBlock, etc. but those are either rare or (as far as Shame and such) mostly only done to monks.

Whenever I played the D/P, my covers would include Heart of Fury and Vital Boon. Both of those are easily interrupted when Dazed (and seriously lower the build's survivability) if the team has any sort of coordination, like pinging when you're doing a Daze attack or something. All it takes is a wand or something since most teams aren't 4 melee, obviously I understand that Daze is mostly irrelevant against blinded people.

I'm not saying you're wrong, maybe caster hate wasn't the proper wording. And since I can only assume the shitter comment was directed at me (and maybe others), I said the build was overpowered

The Black Mumba · Jul 17, 2009, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Blind is a leet condition; along with daze (and maybe weakness on meele) is the only one worth to be removed. EDA is an earth prayers skill, so it is normally followed by mystic regeneration, boon and then heart of fury. Stripping it it's hard because necros in ra just have corrupt or rip enchantment.
Your other suggestions are bad: if you manage to divert eda you are a very lucky mesmer. Sight beyond sight? Are you mad? Plague touch? Meh.
A d/p, especially with a healer, can bother almost every ra team: no meele pressure---> monk is focused on hexes---> no damage.
The only counters are ff/ps or heavy antimeele hate.