Curse

Razz L Dazzle · Jul 23, 2009, 08:19 PM // 20:19

What needs to be done to fix the current problems with the nature of defense in the current GvG meta??

Overall change to Stances.

Stances cannot be activated while knocked down

Similar to spell use, opens a window of opportunity for offenses to kill. It rewards players that use it preemptively rather than reactively. I think it's a natural change since stances are meant to prepare you for what’s about to come. Using them while on your back is illogical (stance=standing) and makes them too powerful.

Individual stance changes

I don’t currently like fire ele’s ability to block 75% chance for 80% of the time. I've been convinced that the Mind Blaster's survivability is most problematic. I’d prefer to see this go onto primary mesmer bars by switching it to fast casting attribute. If stance defense is going to be the direction moving forward, I think Domination mesmers could use a viable stance that has a penalty for use. If passive defense is brought back i'd leave it in illusion.

Distortion- 5 energy 8 recharge—(Fast Casting) Ally has 75% to block and loses -3 Energy.

The stances that prevent interrupts push the game in a bad direction. The skills that they allow to be used were balanced because of the vulnerable cast times. For this reason I’d push Mantra of Resolve out of use. I’d suggest concentration’s towards one time usage. VoR template/ Signet humility bars will look for the next most abusable skill to prevent interrupts as will other long cast templates

Mantra of Resolve- while under this stance you gain +5 energy if you were interrupted. No longer prevents interruption

Mantra of Concentration- 5 energy 20 recharge your next spell cannot be interrupted.. Lasts 5- 10 seconds. Ends after spell use.

Pious Concentration- 5 energy 15 second recharge, If you were under the effects of an enchantment your next spell cannot be interrupted. Lasts 2...7 seconds

Current rangers bars ability to survive is beyond what they should be capable of. Natural Stride is a fairly balanced stance that allows rangers to be mobile/durable characters. Lightning Reflexes allows them to tank and pump poison. It also allows rangers to overextend without penalty. Having both stances (LR and Natty) is what breaks the balance of this template. Lightning seems the better skill to punish.

Lightning Reflexes- increase 30 --> 45 recharge

Mo/W’s- First of all now monks have high armor and plus their stances make them even stronger targets. I’d like see balanced stance work similarly to the way hex breaker functions. That along with a “stances cannot be activated while knocked down” I think would make it well balanced. I've considered, to some degree, a 20 second recharge with the above mentioned description, slightly shorten duration.

Balanced Stance- Stance. For X seconds, the next time you are the target on a knock down it fails. While under this stance you do not suffer extra damage from critical hits.

Invincible monks under Paragon related builds would probably need a tweak. It's a little too good at 10 second recharge while running Dual paragon builds.

Soldier’s Defense- 5 energy 12 recharge. Stance. For X seconds, you have a 75% chance to block while under a chant or shout. Change the 4 second break point to require 9 tactics

Side Note:
I think this would be a good direction for defensive blocks to move towards. I’d also like to see some passive defense begin to get buffed into play gradually.

Ward of Melee- 15 energy 1 cast 20 recharge

Aegis- 15 energy 2 cast 30 recharge- I would move the 11 second break-point to 15 prot.

IronSheik · Jul 23, 2009, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Concentration...it only prevents one spell...? Same thing as concentration glyph, only a stance.

Aegis isn't a block anymore.

A lot of your changes I don't agree on and don't want to expand.

Braxton619 · Jul 23, 2009, 08:55 PM // 20:55

/notsigned

I completely disagree with most of your skill changes above including Lightning Reflexes.

That would completely ruin the fun in PvP. If you want to remove their stances, bring Wild Blow.

EDIT: I'm guessing your a Bull's Strike Warrior? They make me lol when they can't knock you down. Espically the Palm Strike noobs.

Motoko · Jul 23, 2009, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

Concentration...it only prevents one spell...? Same thing as concentration glyph, only a stance.

Aegis isn't a block anymore.

A lot of your changes I don't agree on and don't want to expand.

An intelligent person would assume he is talking about the pre-nerfed version of aegis.

Thank you for disagreeing and giving valid points to back them up.

Wait...

Lux Aeterna · Jul 23, 2009, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leet Tankur

/notsigned

I completely disagree with most of your skill changes above including Lightning Reflexes.

That would completely ruin the fun in PvP. If you want to remove their stances, bring Wild Blow.

EDIT: I'm guessing your a Bull's Strike Warrior? They make me lol when they can't knock you down. Espically the Palm Strike noobs.

Most of the changes suggested are quite heavy and you neglect all the anti-stance skills already in use.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jul 23, 2009, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna

Most of the changes suggested are quite heavy and you neglect all the anti-stance skills already in use.

Hence the proposal to bring back some forms of party wide defense. Which in the past at least required attention to bring it down or team coordination, unlike todays lawl meta of 123 button mash ele and mesmer templates, you could even argue mirror of ice templates having the same feel to them. This all stemmed from that BIG Elite buff months ago that turned GW into a thoughtless more skill-less game overall with no real importance on when to use skills. TBH the August update better be huge or small and decent, nerfing Distortion won't suffice.

The one liners so far are pretty entertaining to say the least.

IrishX · Jul 23, 2009, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna

Most of the changes suggested are quite heavy and you neglect all the anti-stance skills already in use.

There are only two anti-stance skills that aren't so horrible to see use. Whirling Axe kills a warrior's DPS, and Wild Throw will tie up the secondary. You can run a paragon, but then you are basically running an 8v8 build, and if everyone does that, you have a very boring meta.

Chocobo1 · Jul 23, 2009, 09:53 PM // 21:53

I do agree on the whole pre emptive stances rather than reactive. They are so mindless, at least that way we could put some skill into using them. No stance on KD would be great, but I'm not sure if they should end on KD like many people want. That might make stances worthless.

Ugh · Jul 23, 2009, 10:03 PM // 22:03

I think the concept of not being able to activate stances while knocked down is a good idea. But, changes to game mechanics could be difficult/impossible to implement. But I'm not a programmer, so I wouldn't know.

About LR: Survivalibility is one of the strongest points of Rangers so nerfing it would be meh. A 45r for Lightning Reflexes would probably pull it out of play. And there's nothing I hate more than the "omgthisskillisoverpoweredkillitkillitKILLIT" nerfing method. If any skill really needs a nerf it should make the skill worse, but not unusable. I would make it something like this:

Lightning Reflexes 10e 20r (maybe 25r)
Stance. For 5...10...11 seconds, you have a 35...57...63% chance to block melee and projectile attacks, and you attack 33% faster.

This change would reduce its blocking ability, but it could be used slightly more often.

Chocobo1 · Jul 23, 2009, 10:08 PM // 22:08

I'd nerf LR slightly and buff some other ranger stances just to give them some options... Kind of a joke when every build for the Ranger is exactly the same except the elite.

Burton2000 · Jul 23, 2009, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocobo1

I'd nerf LR slightly and buff some other ranger stances just to give them some options... Kind of a joke when every build for the Ranger is exactly the same except the elite.

Ranger builds have been genereally the same since guild wars release and nothings really gonna change that.

LR could do with a revert back to 45r im not too fussed either way, just means you wont be able to sit in the enemy backline all game with no fear of being killed which i suppose is a good thing for the game.

Im not sure I agree with nerfing of the other stances, I don't really see them as a problem except perhaps distortion which can be solved by just putting it in fast casting. If you keep nerfing defense we will just end up with iway in GvG which I am sure you don't want.

Ugh · Jul 23, 2009, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocobo1

I'd nerf LR slightly and buff some other ranger stances just to give them some options... Kind of a joke when every build for the Ranger is exactly the same except the elite.

That too. The only variation I've seen in high-end GvG is Mel. Shot, BA, or Magebane as the elite and sometimes using Needling in place of Savage.

I could rant for hours about what Ranger skills should be buffed and why (This applies to other professions, too. But I only really play as a ranger, so I don't know anything about any other skills

). Better heals would be nice, first of all. The Beast Mastery heals are ok but... ya know... Beast Mastery. Troll sucks, and Healing Spring is shit. 10e + 20r + 2c + easily interruptible + LOLICAN'TMOVE = worst heal in the game. Only thing nice about it is that it heals allies. But, your allies shouldn't be adjacent for 10 seconds in PvP.

Variety plz

IronSheik · Jul 23, 2009, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator Motoko

An intelligent person would assume he is talking about the pre-nerfed version of aegis.

Thank you for disagreeing and giving valid points to back them up.

Wait...

And thank you for making a worthwhile post. I know he was talking about Pre-nerfed Aegis, why would I say "It isn't a block anymore"

If you want structured, since I was busy and said I don't want to expand

I do agree stances shouldn't be activated while knocked down, I even think they should end if knocked down.

Distortion This actually hurts the energy of mesmers, MB needs nerfed, Not distortion

Mantra Of Resolve I don't see this used enough to know if this is a good change or not.

Mantra of Concentration Doesn't need nerfed, has a 30r already

Pious Concentration Simply make it not work if someone doesn't have an enchantment already, this nerf is unnecessary

Lightning Reflexes It's only 1/3rd of the time upkeepable, it's fine

Balanced and Soldier' These nerfs are fine, but I don't see a huge point.

Ward Against Melee This doesn't need to be upkeepable

Aegis Aegis was Nerfed.

Gift3d · Jul 23, 2009, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Not being able to activate stances while knocked down doesn't only make sense with balance in the game, but also makes sense to go with the general concept of a 'stance'. This change is needed and long overdue.

Moving distortion to fast casting attribute is a great idea, but i'm not sure about the other skill changes you mentioned.

Mantra of resolve would be a killer combo with persistence of memory. I like it.

Balanced stance... eh... for the duration it lasts and how effective it is, i think it'd be balanced if the cost was 10e instead of 5e.

MetalMan · Jul 23, 2009, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

Distortion This actually hurts the energy of mesmers, MB needs nerfed, Not distortion It needs to be moved to fast casting to stop non-mesmer primarys abusing this as has been done several times now.

Mantra Of Resolve I don't see this used enough to know if this is a good change or not. Its too powerful esp on VoR bars - the only real way to counter a bar with this skill on is either to spam rupts until energy runs out, or to force you to bring some form of stance removal.

Lightning Reflexes It's only 1/3rd of the time upkeepable, it's fine Being able to stay way out of position with no fear of any death is fine, hm?

Balanced and Soldier' These nerfs are fine, but I don't see a huge point. If you played against them, you'd actually know.

Ward Against Melee This doesn't need to be upkeepable No, but, the game needs more defence that takes skill. If this is what it takes to bring more skillful defence, then i'll accept it.

Aegis Aegis was Nerfed. It was nerfed the wrong way. An increased recharge would have sufficed.

My replies are in bolded itallics.

Also - Mantra of Concentration and Pious Concentration need changes if we're to nerf other anti-rupt skills, otherwise we're just nerfing one option and leaving other options alone. Resulting in nothing actually changing.

Bob Slydell · Jul 24, 2009, 12:02 AM // 00:02

I think this is just a "QQ Anet fix the game for me plz" thread.

Ugh · Jul 24, 2009, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetalMan

No, but, the game needs more defence that takes skill. If this is what it takes to bring more skillful defence, then i'll accept it.

True dat. Here's an idea for blocking stances:
Instead of blocking a certain percentage of the time, blocking skills block every other time or 3/4 of the time. For example, if I have Lightning Reflexes up and someone's attacking me, I would block his next 3 attacks but not block the 4th. After the 4th attack, I would block another 3 attacks and so on. This way blocking would be predictable instead of random (random's bad

) and force more skillful play:

-If a foe begins using a rez and then uses Natural Stride to prevent rupts, I would have to use Dshot and pray that it doesn't get blocked. If this new system was implemented, I could shoot one arrow, get it blocked, and then use a rupt that will hit every time.

-If a foe uses Distortion, I could autoattack 3 times and save a more powerful attack for the 4th attack.

-If I use Whirling Defense and get hit 4 times, I know I will block the next 3 times (unless an unblockable attack is used). So, I could time important skills to prevent interruption.

Bad part about this is that it couldn't work with skills like Dodge. But that isn't used in PvP anyway. :/

About stances and knock downs:
Stances shouldn't be able to be activated while knocked down, but they shouldn't end either. Although I wouldn't mind if they were ignored while knocked down. It's hard to block a hammer while laying on your back.

Master Fuhon · Jul 24, 2009, 01:20 AM // 01:20

You can’t re-implement less complex strategy into something that people have been doing for a long time, without them solving the puzzle immediately. The problem with counters is that they will still be a form of counters regardless of the numerical values assigned to the skill. Strategic strength is in countering, not in numerical values.

When an Aegis-like skill is in play, theoretically it could be a stress point that could only be collapsed in a particular manner: interrupts (Mesmer ones slightly preferred) or Mirror of Disenchantment. Current meta is savage slash, agonizing chop, disrupting chop, savage shot, and distracting shot. Just adding domination mesmers to the mix would turn builds that already take 4-5 interrupts into builds taking 6-8 (this isn’t counting knockdowns, and who knows if people will ever drop Primal Rage without a counter being made; the original PR counter was team spiking the PR warrior). Someone will be hitting Aegis (if not Power Blocking it), and after that they will all go gambling for Word of Healing and Guardian because they would have nothing else they could do from having built so thoroughly around interrupts.

However, the last time Aegis was actually in play, it was PoD spiking using Aegis to win against another team with Aegis, not even some coordinated interrupt zerg. The skill remains a false security blanket against deep removals, but it’s a great skill for layering defense. Once Aegis gets up, it’s easier to get other defensive skills up.

Aegis wasn’t nerfed out of play; it was beaten. Although people haven’t see it beaten by split yet, so they might doubt it can be. It was beaten pretty easily by spikes. Stances haven’t been beaten, but if you nerf them then another complex layer of defense will have been removed. You can’t rewind everyone’s skill level back to where they forget how to beat something. If you really wanted a meta to truly revolve around Aegis, you would also need to make it less counterable (note: not more powerful). Doing this with a skill with the variable power of Aegis (strong when up, really bad when down) could backfire.

I think a consideration of Distortion and Lightning Reflexes is appropriate. If the victory condition is too easy, then allowing these characters to be linebacked should increase competition and depth. Standard damage linebacking is not as problematic as stance removal/interrupt lockdown.

Fabez · Jul 24, 2009, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Stances cannot be activated while knocked down

This is a change I would actually like to see implemented. The only problem I see with this is that some skills (mostly Mesmer skills: Distortion, Mantra's, Hex Breaker) aren't exactly "stances" from a realistic standpoint.

Now, as for the other things:

Distortion

Distortion wasn't a problem until a few months back, it's the current functionality of Mind Blast that makes it so easy for Elementalists to keep up.

Try touching the core of the problem next time.

Mantra of Resolve

I never saw it as too huge a problem, but I suppose if we're going to make defenses more skillful, this one needs to change as well.

I can't say I agree with your suggested change, though.

Mantra of Concentration

The skill prevents one interruption, at a recharge of 30 seconds. Doesn't seem too strong to me.

Still, the proposed change seem fair, it reminds me of the Paragon skill "Song of Concentration" (though wouldn't this technically be a buff?).

I'm not sure if you can encode the skill in such a way that it only prevents the interruptions of spells, as opposed to skills, though.

Pious Concentration

Again, I don't believe this skill is too strong. You remove an enchantment or the stance ends after interrupting a skill, seems fair to me.

Also, it's a Dervish skill, having it only prevent the interruptions of spells wouldn't make a lot of sense.

Lightning Reflexes

Just change the rate at which this skill can block from 75% to 50%, lower the recharge a bit to compensate.

Balanced Stance

Fine, though I'll get back to this at the bottom of my post.

Soldier's Defense

I barely see this used, so I won't comment on it.

Ward Against Melee

First we're trying to make skills more skillful, but doing this is promoting the opposite. A non-removable effect, able to be used fairly often with your proposed change, in which 50% of the melee attacks miss.

Yeah... sorry, but no.

Aegis

It was changed a while back actually, and in all honesty I've taken quite a liking to the new functionality (though I believe a slightly lower recharge wouldn't hurt).

On Stance Monks

As you mentioned above, Mo/W's (and Mo/A's to some degree) have been making use of stances to increase their survivability against melee spikes/pressure.

The problem is, they really need to. It's become increasingly easy lately for melee professions, and specifically Assassins, to "1-2-3" their way to victory (other professions too, but that isn't what I'm hinting at here).

Stances have become almost a necessity for Monks to survive these, especially in the smaller Arena formats.

Master Fuhon · Jul 24, 2009, 02:00 AM // 02:00

I forgot to say how I think defense should be structured. Team defense should not be layered. The healers should be layered, because they are the team defense. I give the designs of Boon Prots and Healer's Boon for this.

With the Healer's Boon, you strip the enchant or shut down the elite, the monk can still do things, but he's less effective. With the Boon Prot, you lock down his elite, he runs low on energy. You strip the enchant he has no red bar pushing.

It's hard to say whether this design could be implemented, but I think it's a better approach than literally having to deal with impenetrable layers of defense spread across a whole team.