Curse

Vanquisher · Jun 11, 2009, 09:56 AM // 09:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ciric

You should be able to send back just a E/Rt (god knows how OP that bar is) and it be just fine as long as you have NPCs.

Come again?

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Angra I

Well, you can probably strip it more often than that, but I mostly mean that you can't keep it down consistently all game because of how mobile the eles are, unless you have a character specifically following them around all game with strips or something.. but even then I dunno.

Here is what would then happen.

Run a bit, put up attune. When Mes gets in range (out of his Monks range, unless the proposal is to send a Monk running around also), Meteor chain and dual Rodgorts. Mes dies.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jun 11, 2009, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Pblock one pleak other!

Sun Fired Blank · Jun 11, 2009, 10:28 AM // 10:28

How is the E/Rt OP? Ether Prism's energy return is a bit much, but I don't think the invulnerability clause is overly problematic, and the ritualist skill set feels mostly acceptable with the exception of Recuperation, a 45r skill that pretty much singlehandedly determines your stand play.

At any rate the E/Mes can run over them pretty quickly once they make progress. Just sending back your E/Rt quickly isn't enough; every split cycle should gradually whittle down your NPCs, and once they've exposed enough of your lord room, there's definitely no way your flag runner can just turtle.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jun 11, 2009, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ciric

The problem with the MB eles is 100% aura of restoration. The E/Me template was used briefly before the aura boost and it was ok, but nothing amazing. Aura allows for a attn cover, heal, and provides the extra energy for rodgorts and distortion. Take aura out of the equation and MB eles either A: Can't run distortion because they are forced to bring a self heal, or B: Have no heal, either way eles without aura can't stay and camp a base with NPCs and a damage char on them.

Pretty much, get rid of aura and no more distortion. Then forces either going dervish secondary or monk secondary for heals and condi tools. Seems more desirable than E/Mes. Should probably revert Immolate damage also.

At least with the later suggestions and removal of the E/Mes+distortion you remove the option that allows MB ele's to just sit and tank while in a block stance while aura heals them. They'd be forced to use casting heals and avoid dmg instead of tanking it while still able to cause damage.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jun 11, 2009, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

How is the E/Rt OP? Ether Prism's energy return is a bit much, but I don't think the invulnerability clause is overly problematic, and the ritualist skill set feels mostly acceptable with the exception of Recuperation, a 45r skill that pretty much singlehandedly determines your stand play.

At any rate the E/Mes can run over them pretty quickly once they make progress. Just sending back your E/Rt quickly isn't enough; every split cycle should gradually whittle down your NPCs, and once they've exposed enough of your lord room, there's definitely no way your flag runner can just turtle.

E/Rt's are retarded, though not so much as base defenders but as stand team supporters, the amount of Resilient weapons they can pump out with Prism is insane, Recuperation is a stupid skill in itsself and is equally broken on a rit primary (although Prism makes it easier to afford).

Krill · Jun 11, 2009, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

How is the E/Rt OP?

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

the amount of Resilient weapons they can pump out with Prism is insane

^

I really don't like the performance of prisms at the stand either, basically unload recoup / life, weapons, push some bars and away you go after expending an incredible amount of energy. It's hardly worth noting but also consider that being a skill, you don't have to stop moving to prism. That helps a bit when you're in a hurry and recovering all that energy spent at the stand so you're not stopping for storm djinn's and energy.

In the past anet has kinda made a point of trying to keep elite energy management skills in check. Prism should be applicable to that same standard if they are even trying anymore, else it gives the impression that they really are just doing completely random shit.

kedde · Jun 11, 2009, 08:50 PM // 20:50

When there's no need to prioritize the use of expensive skills by anything but who, then something is wrong.

They're meanto to be balanced by the fact that they are just that, expensive, thus you should need to not only put it on the right target, but also make the decision as to whether you even use it at all.

Pretty much no skills today function like this, sadly.

Sun Fired Blank · Jun 11, 2009, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

E/Rt's are retarded, though not so much as base defenders but as stand team supporters, the amount of Resilient weapons they can pump out with Prism is insane, Recuperation is a stupid skill in itsself and is equally broken on a rit primary (although Prism makes it easier to afford).

The problem is that the E/Rt isn't retarded as a build, in the same sense that some other builds are overpowered in their entirety. Fundamentally, the E/Rt is just a ritualist with a supercharged power source, and most of the ritualist skills as ritualist skills are okay.

For me, the problems in severity order are: Recuperation (is stupid), Ether Prism (too much energy), Resilient Weapon (too passive, recharge and duration issues). I actually rate Recuperation as a greater problem skill than Prism.

On an actual ritualist bar (lacking OoS), Resilient is reasonably okay. On any bar that can just power it on recharge (OoB, OoS, Prism, etc.) and maintain it passively on multiple people, the skill is just dumb.

Reverend Dr · Jun 12, 2009, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by kedde

When there's no need to prioritize the use of expensive skills by anything but who, then something is wrong.

I was writing something up on how energy engines have a strange effect on a skill's balance in relation to cost and recharge, but this very simply summarizes it.

Cirian · Jun 12, 2009, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

The problem is that the E/Rt isn't retarded as a build, in the same sense that some other builds are overpowered in their entirety. Fundamentally, the E/Rt is just a ritualist with a supercharged power source, and most of the ritualist skills as ritualist skills are okay.

For me, the problems in severity order are: Recuperation (is stupid), Ether Prism (too much energy), Resilient Weapon (too passive, recharge and duration issues). I actually rate Recuperation as a greater problem skill than Prism.

Recup is pretty expensive for a Rit to summon, only GvG flaggers can really spit them out every time because they have running time to regen the energy. On the E/Rt though, I've always been able to spit out a Recup whenever I wanted thanks to Eprism and Aura. You have to try very, very hard to run out of energy on an E/Rt.

If I could change Recup it would be to move the +3 regen breakpoint to 13 Resto.

Eprism I'd reduce the energy recovered by 5.

Resilient is fundamentally ok. I'd like to try halving the cost and duration so that a) it has to be recast more often, making it less passive and b) so there's a 5e non-elite resto weapon spell to Boon with that doesn't die in 1 hit.

A bit more on-topic (but still not E/Me

) would be to change the Aura to only work with Elementalist spells. It's a 20% cost reduction for spamming 5e Restoration heals, and backed with elite energy management it's just too much. I suppose that would be true of spamming Dwayna's Touch through Aura too, as the synergy is pretty obvious.

The most disturbing thing about Aura is that it reminds me of touch rangers. It rewards damage by returning health, and the elementalist version is ranged. Whenever there is a combination that generates damage and healing at the same time there is the potential for trouble.

Ensign · Jun 13, 2009, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

Fundamentally, the E/Rt is just a ritualist with a supercharged power source, and most of the ritualist skills as ritualist skills are okay.

I don't think there's a single Ritualist skill left in the game that I would consider a strong skill. They're all weak, expensive, and inflexible. The only reason you look at them is that Kaolai and Recuperation are the only reasonably playable party heals, and you need to have them if you have any intention of fighting people with your entire team. Otherwise you're just trying to figure out what semi-useful things you can do with a guy built around those skills and moving flags can do, and we're seriously at a point where spamming Resilient Weapon with Ether Prism is the best option available. That's how bad Ritualist skills are. But hey that's kinda like more party healing right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

A bit more on-topic (but still not E/Me

) would be to change the Aura to only work with Elementalist spells. It's a 20% cost reduction for spamming 5e Restoration heals, and backed with elite energy management it's just too much.

No one runs Aura of Restoration on an E/Rt Prism guy. His slots are too valuable and it provides essentially no benefit. The extra 19 health on Dwayna's Touch for a Mind Blaster isn't of much consequence and certainly isn't what makes that skill good on that character.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

The most disturbing thing about Aura is that it reminds me of touch rangers. It rewards damage by returning health, and the elementalist version is ranged. Whenever there is a combination that generates damage and healing at the same time there is the potential for trouble.

If there's ever a serious concern about damage + healing at the same time in your game, you're in real trouble. Damage and healing are the two more innocuous mechanics you can put in a game, and if their combination is causing problems, then every bit of utility, every counter and second order interaction, every safety measure you put into your game has failed catastrophically.

In that particular case, I would suggest firing everyone involved with developing your combat system and replacing them with a much more effective team, such as a family of hippos.

Mouse at Large · Jun 13, 2009, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Without trawling through all 16 pages, all I will say is:-

1) Ensign makes sense.

2) I would rather see shifts in the meta than stale one team build -v- the same team build in all GvG.

3) Crying for nerfs is laziness, coming up with counters is creative and leads to gameplay evolution.

BTW, I just saw a low ranked team with 2 mesmers beat a much higher 2 ele team on obs. See 3 above

Ec]-[oMaN · Jun 13, 2009, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

Without trawling through all 16 pages, all I will say is:-

1) Ensign makes sense.

2) I would rather see shifts in the meta than stale one team build -v- the same team build in all GvG.

3) Crying for nerfs is laziness, coming up with counters is creative and leads to gameplay evolution.

BTW, I just saw a low ranked team with 2 mesmers beat a much higher 2 ele team on obs. See 3 above

Shifts happen in the later duration of metas by either;
A)skill updates opposing metas(bringing new OP skills in) on the playerbase
B)skill balance actually nerfs a few op things and people start to run variations to find OP/successful build.
C)they stop updating the game, leave their OP garbage in, and people will adjust by trying counters, by running mirror matches, or simply leaving if the meta doesn't fall into the desired category of the current playerbase.

Sooner or later builds are run, all combinations are tried and tested. Which leads to either counters by the playerbase or op build vs ob build, and the cycle repeats every 5 weeks... or every skill update...

This is the sorta thing people have been complaining about forever.
Clearly by Anets actions they have chosen to go the route of force meta change by altering skills and throwing bad skills into a mix of currently untouched OP skills, and under used/ under powered in relation to last skill buffs.

Instead of trying the other route which hasn't happened in relative succession by monthly in the 4 years since Proph, whereby they draw a line and find a medium on skill power. It's always been up, up ,up, kill, kill, kill.

With added skills, added expansions, meta direction forced since expansions were released , constant forced skill updates with no overall or healthy direction in the grand scheme, can we really expect an evolving meta?

Sai Rith · Jun 13, 2009, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Aura Of Restoration a stance gogogogoggogogo

Back to seriousness. I actually don't find Fire Eles to be overpowered. Smart tactical play can lead to wins over it. I have seen many games in obs, a top guild vs a lower ranked guild running MB Eles and just flat out roll of them. If these Eles were as OP as people make them out to be, that lower ranked guild would have been able to stand a chance.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jun 14, 2009, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sai Rith

Aura Of Restoration a stance gogogogoggogogo

Back to seriousness. I actually don't find Fire Eles to be overpowered. Smart tactical play can lead to wins over it. I have seen many games in obs, a top guild vs a lower ranked guild running MB Eles and just flat out roll of them. If these Eles were as OP as people make them out to be, that lower ranked guild would have been able to stand a chance.

Well since we are deviating from the OP in this thread, as all threads go and rather stem off more about what's actually wrong with the game. First problem here is top tier vs lower tier. Second problem is that in order for the the mindblast build to be successful a multitude of things need to occur in the right favor for the split team, will not get too deep into the specifics.

One thing I will mention is map plays importance, and currently with the amount of 8v8 power/skills being slotted can easily roll over splits that:
a)have absolutely no form of defense besides 2 monks and a runner
b)the MB ele's or split actually has to be forcing some kind of sizable threat, so that they can lure over healing on one side, then collapse on the other.

Right now yes there is a problem with the Mindblast templates, especially the ones slotting distortion. Splits in general don't require as much small scrims like in previous times. On the other side of things there is a problem with 8v8 power, and lack of any kind of utility being used in any pressure/8v8/split builds. It's all been nerfed to hell and you can just slot dmg and overload on the strengths of the builds chosen to be used.

Ensign · Jun 14, 2009, 12:40 AM // 00:40

The biggest problem with Mind Blast is that it's the new Splinter Weapon. The character isn't particularly dangerous (against players, it doesn't kill, as much as act as an amplifier that pushes a Ranger or Warrior over the edge); it's more that it can happily sit near your lord room shooting the lord over and over without dying; it is no threat of killing anything but can easily put the tiebreaker out of reach. Fire Eles running around shooting the Lord for 28 minutes is the new defense ball with AoE archer farming skills.

Yue · Jun 15, 2009, 03:59 AM // 03:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sai Rith

Aura Of Restoration a stance gogogogoggogogo

Back to seriousness. I actually don't find Fire Eles to be overpowered. Smart tactical play can lead to wins over it. I have seen many games in obs, a top guild vs a lower ranked guild running MB Eles and just flat out roll of them. If these Eles were as OP as people make them out to be, that lower ranked guild would have been able to stand a chance.

Since when did good teams beating bad teams running broken builds automatically mean that a build isn't broken?

Mouse at Large · Jun 15, 2009, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

Since when did good teams beating bad teams running broken builds automatically mean that a build isn't broken?

Since when did "bad" teams running a counter to a supposedly "broken" build being run by a "good" team and winning make the "broken" build OP

Yue · Jun 16, 2009, 01:01 AM // 01:01

If your argument against a build being OP is that there exists a counter, then you've got alot to learn about game balance.

urania · Jun 16, 2009, 09:04 PM // 21:04

damnit, u can divert everything, so nothing is overpowered.
didnt ya know that?!
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