Curse

tigros · May 28, 2009, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regulus X

Any build that's too good against almost all things with very little drawbacks is Overpowered.

Could you please elaborate on this? I have the slight feeling you're over generalizing and you're confining yourself to only a handful of templates...

Regulus X · May 28, 2009, 01:23 PM // 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigros

Could you please elaborate on this? I have the slight feeling you're over generalizing and you're confining yourself to only a handful of templates...

I'm not doing the confining, tigros. Anet is (by way of nerfing everything).

I'm using the general rule that near-god-moding with Distortion vs. physical attackers is wrong. Anyone who fails to see this is either retarded, or abusing this OP'd E/Me themselves and can't git enuff of it!

It's a common reaction to grasp that shining star (Mario reference.. for those gamers that don't know..) bouncing around to rick-roll everybody to kingdom come (i.e.: E/Me, E/Me, E/Me, etc..). Anet's known to squash all them Shining Stars players keep finding with build combinations. E/Me's just another one that popped up.. but with GW1 Staffing down to one full-time Dev, it's no wonder the E/Me continues unseen by him/her and abused by everyone who hungers for easy 1-2-3 victories.

Jeydra · May 28, 2009, 02:05 PM // 14:05

I'll try this one more time, failing which I give up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RegulusX

I'm using the general rule that near-god-moding with Distortion vs. physical attackers is wrong. Anyone who fails to see this is either retarded, or abusing this OP'd E/Me themselves and can't git enuff of it!

As a general rule Blind makes you invulnerable to physical attackers. Actually it makes you even more invulnerable to physical attackers than Distortion, because you're dealing with miss not block (there are unblockable attacks around) and a larger "avoid damage" percentage (90% not 75%). So using your logic we can reasonably conclude that Blind is overpowered.

Except, of course, it isn't. Why not? You pointed out the reason yourself earlier: Blind can be removed. Once you remove it, you are free to bash away at whoever inflicted Blind in the first place. But you of course need to remove it first. If you find yourself alone on a physical against a blindbot it's game over because you can't remove it yourself (unless you have some self condition removal, which you typically don't have).

So we're back where we started. Distortion makes you block. You can't remove block. Or can you? You can, and there are so many methods all given already. Not necessarily remove block but certainly go through it. I'll repeat them here for your benefit. Unblockable attacks like Shattering Assault or Warrior's Cunning. Anti-enchantments that attack the Elementalist's energy by removing his attunements. Interrupts that attack the Elementalist's energy by stopping him from finishing his casts, which he needs to regain energy. Tools that attack his blocking, like Defile Defenses and Rigor Mortis. Stance removal like Wild Strike. Caster damage like Searing Flames and Ride The Lightning. Standard anti-caster tools like Backfire and Migraine. There is no lack of alternatives. The build is effectively largely because these skills aren't prevalent enough in the meta.

... and it also works against you because you don't have them, and for some reason are reluctant to bring them. You have anti-conditions that remove Blind already, which is why you aren't bitching about an even more powerful counter, but you don't have anti-block (or not enough of it).

In short your bitching about how much block it is advances no arguments to show that the E/Me template is overpowered, and seems very much like straight-out whining. Almost all you've written thus far is exceedingly shallow. You did point out a valid argument that the template is overpowered - I'll highlight it for you:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RegulusX

I'm simply saying that too much "Escape"-like blockage is bad. It's OP'd and I see it everywhere! Lightning Reflexes is 1/3 duration, Escape is 2/3 duration, DISTORTION is capable of 80-100% duration = IMBA. A non-elite?! Think about it.

Now this is good. 75% block that lasts 80% of the time is better than Lightning Reflexes and Escape, with Escape being an elite to boot. Of course there are other factors - Escape also gives increased movespeed for example - but something along these lines is an argument that the template is overpowered. This, being rooted in concrete examples comparing two skills, is a lot more solid than "my nephew can play it" too. You've not chosen to pursue it though, preferring to keep whining.

I'm sorry but if you prefer to emphasize the "reasons" you've already given as to why the Mind Blast template is overpowered, I can't but help not take you seriously.

Regulus X · May 28, 2009, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

text..

I'm sorry but if you prefer to emphasize the "reasons" you've already given as to why the Mind Blast template is overpowered, I can't but help not take you seriously.

Don't take me serious then. For that matter I hope Anet doesn't take the issue seriously and allows E/Me's to rule (and ruin) PvP. 5-man E/Me's in HA, 2-man Splits in GvG, 2-3 in TA (or syncs in RA) GOGOGO! Block is the new Meta, and E/Me's are lolbbqwtfwut? Overpowered with it.

META IS Distortion, Bonetti's, etc..:

*block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* gogogo! Annoy meleers with mindless blocking!

But no worries, just go caster and you shouldn't have much of a problem amirite?

House Silvermoon · May 28, 2009, 04:18 PM // 16:18

stances have always been brought in pvp. the thing that needs changing is mind blast and if not there are plenty of counters to stances.

Regulus X · May 28, 2009, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by House Silvermoon

stances have always been brought in pvp. the thing that needs changing is mind blast and if not there are plenty of counters to stances.

If M.Blast gets nerfed, just means a new energy-gaining elite is needed (Lyssa, E.Prism, Prodigy, etc..). Moar abuse, basically. The only stance with 75% block and 5 recharge, only needing uber energy gain to sustain it effectively = broken. No tactic involved in spamming and laughing at attackers. None, Zero, zilch, etc.. and there's only 4 stance removals in game, only one of which is actually considered meta and the rest of which mildly see any usage other than in the smaller arenas (RA/TA). Even then, 5 recharge vs 8 sec recharge, 4 or 7 adrenaline..? Sorry but Distortion wins. By the time you've broken through Distortion, the E/Me's almost done recharging and clicks it yet again! It's futile to even spec vs this shit! IT'S USELESS!

What's wrong with ya'll? You don't think "near-permablock" 60-80% of the time isn't OP'd? I'm willing to bet money that the ones posting 'Oh it's not OP'd blah blah blah.." are the very ones abusing the E/Me in PvP. I see it everywhere now! TA (E/Me x3 + Monk), HA (E/Me x 3-5 + 3-Monk Backline), GvG (E/Me x 2 Split)...

Not Overpowered?! Ya'll on sum guud CRACK.

I Angra I · May 28, 2009, 04:55 PM // 16:55

For the people saying that if mind blast is nerfed people will just use another emanagement elite, mind blast is a ton more energy than any of the other elites available. For a template that is constantly using skills/outputting damage, aka using mind blast on recharge when using your other skills, it is a LOT of energy that you get from it. Way more than any other elite like eprism, lyssas aura, etc.

Marxon Aurion · May 28, 2009, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Plus Mind Blast is a great deal of the damage (it may not seem much, but if you leave the damage of Mind Blast out it's suddenly a lot less).

Lux Aeterna · May 28, 2009, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Look JUST RUN WHIRLING AXE OKAY

Yichi · May 28, 2009, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

What do you call this:

14 Air, 13 Energy Storage

Blinding Flash
Lightning Orb
Lightning Hammer
Enervating Charge
Aura of Restoration
Air Attunement
Elemental Attunement
Res Sig

Junk anywhere but RA. Mass enchant removal is common, hence why hardly no one runs ele attunement anymore...

gl with the energy in that build otherwise.

Master Fuhon · May 28, 2009, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regulus X

and if you're in a balanced team with two melee, necro and Monk, all you'll see as a meleer is *block* *block* *block*

You should post your 'balanced' team build. If we are to believe these changes are necessary to the health of the game, we need to see the build you call balanced. Otherwise, the game would be changed around helping you win without knowing whether you were running a lame counter to someone else's build.

It sounds like there could be other problems, since you mentioned Foul Feast in a later post. I don't know if I should assume you also have plague sending, making your build dependent on the necromancer using opponents conditions against them, to which the Mind Blast build has short duration burning. Plague sending is an example of a specific counter skill against condition pressure when accompanied with a draw skill. Foul Feast is balanced because off-monk condition removal has become a necessary part of the game. Plague sending is a counter skill, not part of a balanced build.

Dinkytowner · May 28, 2009, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regulus X

stuff...

What is your problem? Are you an 8 year old with no ability to listen to reason? You are just repeating an argument over and over with the same result.

Yes, a skill that provides 80-100% block is OP'd. But the problem isn't distortion, it's the stuff that fuels it. Up the recharge on Mind Blast and maybe imolate and you've solved the problem. If you really want to kill the use of distortion on Me secondaries, move it into FC. If you don't want to do any of this, fine. I'm OK with it. Wear a Fire shield, use Balanced Stance, and bring a Mesmer.

And most of all stop bitching, you are just making yourself look dumb. You should go hang out with Izzy. You seem to have similar ideas on how to (poorly) balance this game.

urania · May 28, 2009, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigros

You're funny. First you generalize button-mashing to a build template, then you revert it to allegedly mindless players (who don't do the things that make them good - i.e. field awareness or resources awareness, but are awarded by a good template), then move again to a build template (hexway), yet come back again to a player issue (rewarding more for less skill, in your opinion).

I'm glad that at least in the end you do realize that even mindless button-mashing templates can be played with skill by good players and thus be an even worse threat

, i.e. a good player will be better than a bad player with the same overpowered template, right?. So if that's true, then qed, it's still player skill not just an "overpowered" skill template.

You're funny too. According to you then, the prenerfed sand shards button mash spam (and thats the only thing it was) is a valid build. Darnit, why on earth was it ever nerfed.

Also, I'm not generalizing, I am merely giving an example of builds that involve brain-dead button mash. Moreover, all of the builds I gave as an example are related to each other and to the point I was trying to make, but apparently it's pointless to elaborate it closely enough for you to get the point.
The problem isn't just such builds are brain dead, its their overly good effect and with that, they will obviously be even more effective in the hands of ppl actually using brain - however, that alone doesnt justify the fact something so simple should give a result as good as endless e management so one can use 25 energy spells on recharge or solo blow up a target by simply chaining 3-4 spells (yay for cracked armor, one of the most useless and redundant, not to mention completely stupid conditions implemented), or stack a target with 2-3 rows of hexes and call it a day. I won't even mention shove spike or fevered dreams+eda+cripslash build abuse.

On a side note, i love the irony in the very name of the fire ele's spam elite - Mind(less) Blast

Regulus X · May 28, 2009, 07:55 PM // 19:55

All I'm sayin' is that Distortion (PvP anyway) needs to take tha way of tha dinosaurs. 75% block is too good with energy-managing elites. OP'd permablock is ftl. Bad for game, yes?

Say no to OP'd builds ftw. Stimulate real challenges instead of 1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block* BS...

E/Me's need to meet their end soon. I think the One-Man Live Team's aware of E/Me's, but choses to allow them to exist for just a bit longer.. *dunno why*.. but it surely is annoying having those mindlessly OP'd jerks spam M.Blast->Immolate with a bit of Rodgort+Meteor. It needs to end sooner or later though.. for tha good of balance.. if they even know of such a thing!

Krill · May 28, 2009, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Mind Blast itself isn't really the problem, it was the Aura of Restoration and to a lesser extent Immolate and Meteor buffs that took it over the top. Aura is an amazing cover enchant now, Immolate does a little too much damage for 10e and fast recharge and Meteor should have had it's damage reduced with the 2s activation. It's just unfortunate that this skill was buffed into a button smasher because it use to be a nice niche skill that could still perform when you're attunement was stripped or interrupted.

WeMade · May 28, 2009, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Dear Regulus X,

Please stop breaking the fcking forums.
Also stop posting the same redundant shit over and over again.

Thanks.

Jeydra · May 29, 2009, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

Junk anywhere but RA. Mass enchant removal is common, hence why hardly no one runs ele attunement anymore...

gl with the energy in that build otherwise.

Precisely. The counters exist and are common, therefore the build sucks. The counters to E/Me Mind Blasters exist but are uncommon, therefore they are overpowered.

And urania, I could care less that builds "take no skill". If we only had the "skillful" build, then there would be no build variety because so many builds would be nerfed out of play. After several months we're finally seeing some variety. If ANet goes ahead and nerf Paragons now (brainless), hexes (brainless), etc, we'd soon end up back when the only viable build was 2x War 1x Ranger 1x Dom Mes 1x FC Water Snare 2x Monk + flagger. I do not want that. As far as I'm concerned the "takes no skill" argument is simply irrelevant.

Zena Starlight · May 29, 2009, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regulus X

All I'm sayin' is that Distortion (PvP anyway) needs to take tha way of tha dinosaurs. 75% block is too good with energy-managing elites. OP'd permablock is ftl. Bad for game, yes?

Say no to OP'd builds ftw. Stimulate real challenges instead of 1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block*-1-2-3-4-*block* BS...

Come on now. Repeating something four or five times in a thread doesn't make your point across any clearer.

Personally, I think Jeydra brings up a fairly good point. Remember back in TA where monks only brought holy veil (Prob back when they still had condition removal)? Now when you look at 98% of all bars you will see that monks would bring a combination of Holy Veil, Spotless Mind, Cure Hex or even Deny Hex. See where I'm getting at? Slowly as hexways and necros became more playable, people adapted in a way to beat or get an upper hand agasint these teams.

Now when you look at an Ele spamming Mind Blast... You just look at the elite and you pretty much know the exact build they are running down to the attributes. This "op" build is set in stone due to PvX and the lack of creativity from players. And since this build is as rampant as you say, what is stopping you from bringing one of the various counters and roll them every single time?

And if your too lazy (or bad) to even do that. Look at the root of Distortion. You lose energy when you block, but you gain energy from Mind Blast to cover that lost. But even just stripping attunement and AoR you can lower their energy gain by atleast 3 every Mind Blast. Again hopefully someone can do the number crunching, but I'm fairly sure they will have to give up on some immolate spam if you want to be able to continually block from Distortion.

WHAT? The solution was that easy? Ohwait you were still crying about it.

Regulus X · May 29, 2009, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeMade

Dear Regulus X,

Please stop breaking the fcking forums.
Also stop posting the same redundant shit over and over again.

Thanks.

The forums are unbreakable and the posters all force me to reiterate the 'why' E/Me's are so f'ing OP'd.

I'd take it that by the tone of your post that you're just another one of those that abuse the E/Me build in PvP and're scared that it will get toned down by Anet so you won't have any more OP'd build for yourself to farm PvPers with so mind-numbingly easily (1, 2, 3, 4) anymore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zena Starlight

Come on now. Repeating something four or five times in a thread doesn't make your point across any clearer.

Personally, I think Jeydra brings up a fairly good point. Remember back in TA where monks only brought holy veil (Prob back when they still had condition removal)? Now when you look at 98% of all bars you will see that monks would bring a combination of Holy Veil, Spotless Mind, Cure Hex or even Deny Hex. See where I'm getting at? Slowly as hexways and necros became more playable, people adapted in a way to beat or get an upper hand agasint these teams.

Now when you look at an Ele spamming Mind Blast... You just look at the elite and you pretty much know the exact build they are running down to the attributes. This "op" build is set in stone due to PvX and the lack of creativity from players. And since this build is as rampant as you say, what is stopping you from bringing one of the various counters and roll them every single time?

And if your too lazy (or bad) to even do that. Look at the root of Distortion. You lose energy when you block, but you gain energy from Mind Blast to cover that lost. But even just stripping attunement and AoR you can lower their energy gain by atleast 3 every Mind Blast. Again hopefully someone can do the number crunching, but I'm fairly sure they will have to give up on some immolate spam if you want to be able to continually block from Distortion.

WHAT? The solution was that easy? Ohwait you were still crying about it.

Oh yea, right.. lemme just bring a warrior and spec using rend enchantments so I can get rupted like a lil biotch by the rest (2-seconds SCREAMS RUPT ME PL0X!!!1!12!!).

And I'm not bringing stance removal (only 4 of them in-game anyway, 3 of which, well, as their skill name implies, BLOWS) just to land a few hits before they re-raise their stance, laugh and proceed to M.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->Immolate me to death.. By the time my weapon strikes them, Distortion will have already ended and the recharge is so quick that, guess what...

*DISTORION* HaHaHaHa M.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->Immolate! HaHaHaHa M.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->Immolate!

HaHaHaHa M.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->Immolate!

Whew!

M.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->Immolate

LOL

M.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->Immolate

whew...!

M.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->Immolate

...whew....

Meteor

.....*/catchbreath*.....

....okie!

M.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->ImmolateM.Blast->Immolate!

and all while blocking 60-80% of the time! Any more easy solutions? Cuz as far as I know, there are none except ignore til the E/Me's are the last one's standing as usual...

WeMade · May 29, 2009, 12:40 AM // 00:40

I don't play ele.

The only time I (ab)used distortion was when cripshots used it.

And as people have stated, the problem lies with the energy management that mind blast, the attune, and aura of restoration provide, not so much distortion. Without this kind of ridiculous energy management it'd be easy to quickly pressure both ele's out of all their energy.