Curse

pah01 · Sep 13, 2009, 03:47 AM // 03:47

Wishes for the Monthly Skill balance

There are some things that should be obvious but I haven't seen the obligatory thread yet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Editing My OP is Gud idea

Last night I wanted to play GVG and/or some HA and nobody was online so I said to myself IMA POST ON GURU. I admit that some skills were forgotten but having said that I will now add.

What I mean when I say Smiters Boon. Reduce numbers or increase energy so it is not powerful eneogh to run in PVP, Because the skill itself is the problem not because its just a little too powerful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by I am putting this in a box because its important

Skill should matter more than build. Build warsing opponents is one thing when the other guild can only run a gimmick but when both guilds are good then the optimal choice should be a balanced build. Best games to watch [and most probably play in ever] include Te vs Evil on warriors.

It is bad for the game when top guilds are forced to turtle in their base because there is no other way to have a chance at winning against another top opponent. Likewise it is also awful when the winning guild HAS to run something broken or they are almost certainly going to lose to it.

Stuff that its important to nerf

Basically if this stuff isn't nerfed then someone is sorely lacking in understanding.

Escape

This skill was a problem the last time there was a series of energy based attacks that could be spammed.

Escape is a problem because the rangers have 100 armor vs elemental damage as well as then becoming immune to melee attacks. In case you haven't noticed backlining is necessary in certain situations.

Solution Make escape end on attack.

p.s just in case arenenet start making paragon attack skills 5 energy and do aoe damage or something else that should be expected from Arenanet.

Clarification Yes currently the problem is in Melee. However Bow rangers are not going to choose this skill. If its a problem make it a PVP only change.

Exhausting Assault

If you do not think this is broken then perhaps you should suggest the following change to savage shot and the other ranger interrupts to some version of ---[shoot two arrows at target foe, if either hits skill is interrupted... blah blah].

Solution Make an off hand attack, requires a lead to execute. This at least is a start.

Mind Blast

The tiebreaker is a problem yes. However this doesn't mean that mindblast is not way too good. [Replying to linsey saying that if we remove mindblast then it will just go to Rangers plinking Lord. While this will of course happen Mind blast is still broken.

Solution Hit recharge to at least 5 seconds. The energy gain needs to be reduced.

Peace and Harmony

The existence of this skill is part of the warping of an entire game mechanic. The way Hexes kill is by overloading or disabling party healing in some way all the while debilitating hexes make it very hard for melee [which is the main type of damage in this game] to do anwthing to kill the enemy team.

That said hexes have been broken at various times and I am not too sorry to see a hard counter like this in existence. I am not however of the opinion that hexes cannot be interesting as a build type.

Solution 3/4sec, so that it is interruptible, remove effect that conditions and hexes expire 90% faster afterwards.

Mantra of resolve

Hi there I am going to stand here and put really powerful hexes on you. Rock paper scissors are also good.

Solution Smiters Boon.

Wastrels Collapse

Ok so who wants to run assassins anyway? However the existence of this skill is just kind of retarded since there are situations where you just cannot do anything about it. Its just one of those things that should not exist in guildwars. Fix it or look forward to wastrels collapse weak in sealed deck.

Solution Destroy it.

Clarification. I have never died to this as a monk because my monk bars will be able to cope. The reason its not seen as that powerful is because Assassins have lots of other issues.

edit: Some skills that were not in the original OP

Armor of Sanctity

It is too strong regardless of the fact that you can still kill the monk carrying it with a kd if he is slow.

I nubcaked in a GVG a fortnight ago and was crippled while being whaled upon by two knights and a full team just resed. I actually lived.

Solution 30 Second recharge. If you want the skill for oh crap situation still you cant just use it in place of stuff like SOA and gaurdian to save yourself.

Read krills post Number 6. Coudn't really disagree with him on those things

Stuff that isn't that broken but needs doing to push the game in the correct direction

Ok so the game is old and the stuff that we all know is not healthy cannot be fixed because it is too much work blah blah blah. Thing is though Arenanet has developed a reputation for being really bad at PVP balance. They want us to buy GW2 and the best way to do that is to show that they do know what direction the game should go in. Otherwise it will probably be believed by a significant proportion of PVP players that GW2 organised PVP will be whack.

Skill should matter more than build. Build warsing opponents is one thing when the other guild can only run a gimmick but when both guilds are good then the optimal choice should be a balanced build. Best games to watch [and most probably play in ever] include Te vs Evil on warriors.

Aegis

There has been a few things said in the dev updates about this skill. It seems to me tho that a lot of people do not remember the reasoning behind making monks bars pre nightfall. If you remember Aegis was 15 energy back then and no monk carried it. Just in case you are forgetting the reason it's that monks did not have the energy to carry it.

Hence when teams did bring it it was often on the flagger and I do not remember many teams carrying two copies. The thing that warped this skill in the first place - that allowed monks to bring it was the buff to glyph of lesser energy.

This game is in such a state right now that it needs to have some form of passive defence, I am not going to bother digging up quotes from Ensign to substantiate this but most people should know this.

Aegis on a 30 second recharge for a 4 second effect is not anti-spike skill in case you haven't noticed.

Solution Make 15 energy 2 cast, old effect and scaling. Party Range. Might make flagger choices interesting - and make a midliner at stand push back to cast the two second skill.

Clarification I do not know how many of you in this thread played high level GVG when the skill was in the state I am suggesting now. This is before nightfall.

READ MY LIPS It wasn't a problem then. If you want to be sure - go make a GVG build with two copies of Aegis remembering my nerf to GOLE and then you should see where I am coming from.

Edit skill synergy with Aegis

Defensive Anthem

Ok so this skill is not currently a problem at 15 energy on paragons. But let say that this skill does come back into blockways stacking with a flaggers aegis. Then chains could start to become a problem once again.

I do not have too much problem with two copies of aegis on teams today because using the gift of foresight I believe that you would be gimping your build to do it. Possibly changing a flagger and a midliner to carry it is losing other options.

However if it becomes viable to run DA + Aegis it would start to become a problem again even tho synergy issues with shields up have been sorted.

Therefore I would suggest a nerf to this skill should it show up again in PVP. I do have a problem with a skill which if it is not interrupted gives a team an unstrippable block for a length of time.

A possible solution is to make characters do 50% less damage while under DA or something like this so as to make sure it does not see play.

Glyph Of Lesser Energy

As above this skill pushed a lot of templates over the edge on nightfall release, not the least of which was allowing monks to carry aegis. The purpose of the Buff was to give elementalists an alternative to ether prodigy.

Solution 5 energy saved and 1 spell at 0 energy storage. While this does make it useless for other casters it is a necessary beginning to be made before one can even go about making various kinds of caster templates viable properly. Managing your energy as a caster should be a bit more dependent on play and attribute spread.

Clarification If you want to have the energy for powerful skills or lots of skill use you need to do more than just equip an effectively unlinked skill. It is necessary to do this.

Aggressive Refrain

This is the first thing that needs to go on Paragons because it is basically free IAS. Paragons need to be forced into choosing between DPS and partybuffs to even start to be balanced. Before people come into say that its balanced lol or that it isn't an issue need to go read Greedy Gus's epic post.

Solution Ether Renewal, Smiters Boon.

Clarification Being able to kill someone isn't really anything to do with skill balance. Re-read what is bolded out about paragons being forced to choose between buffs and dps.

Notes for Sealed Deck

Sealed Deck will not solve any of the balance issues. The reasons why Hero battles were degenerate and TA ended up that way are all bound up with the fact that certain kinds of builds are just way too powerful in 4v4.

Now players are generally very quick to see stuff that is powerful especially those with 1000s hours of playtime. What this means is that every sealed deck will probably contain one or more builds that would actually be good under normal circumstances. However the skill's needed to deal with it will probably be missing.

This means that we will see one broken week after the next unless the underlying issues are fixed.

I wish I could be more comprehensive but it seems to me that there are lots of things that need fixing and I could not hope to fix them all in one post.

Joe

Revelations · Sep 13, 2009, 04:41 AM // 04:41

I'd like to see necro enchant strips die in a fire. Rip and Corrupt are way to spammable, and strip is too spiky. As they are these skills lend themselves to stupid paintrains and broken powerful spikes.

Aura of resto needs toning down, but only if above strips are hit also. It's too strong as a cover and energy management.

Wouldn't mind seeing a blanket nerf to ranger interrupt recharges, they're too much of a throwaway atm. Just a couple of seconds added to each. Dshot @ 12 and savage/magebane @ 7 or 8.

Armor of sanctity is pretty stupid with it's current recharge. Needs a hit so that there are actual viable counters other than draw conditions. Balanced stance could do with a small hit too. And there is no real reason not to give distortion an extra couple seconds recharge.

A revert to a lot of the retarded dagger buffs would be nice also.

I'd like to see a small blanket nerf to a lot of caster damage. Mind blast/mind shock/moi/shatterstone/vor especially. Prot has always been one of the healthy good-for-gameplay mechanics of guildwars, but the unpredictable nature of heavy midline damage is slowly causing it to become less useful. People are instead tending towards running armor stacked fortress back/midlines because it's incredibly difficult to prot damage that can so easily ignore it/swap targets.

I also agree with pretty much everything in the OP. I think paras need to have viable primary IAS skills before you go and hit aggressive though.

On the buff side of things, WTB ward against melee and splinter weapon back to punish bad use of it. Some passive defense is definitely healthy too.

turbo234 · Sep 13, 2009, 05:58 AM // 05:58

you must want to work for anet since you want to 'boon everything.
*wastrel's collapse is fine. just because you keep getting caught by it in AB doesn't mean it should be changed.
*agressive refrain is also fine, it makes them a squishy for the cost of attacking faster. also if they die or for some reason aren't able to get a chant to renew it the 25 energy is quite hard to come by to reapply it midbattle.
*gole is already in a nerfed state. from 15 less energy to cancel casting affects one of the spell counts to this current state it has been seriously toned down and is still effective but not overpowered. the recharge keeps it in line.
*aegis. maybe if the recharge is 60 seconds i wouldn't mind it being reverted. having party wide 50% block 66% of the time was definately a problem. and i believe anet even said that it was a tough one to balance throughout the years. you complain about escape yet you are trying to revive aegis.

Darth The Xx · Sep 13, 2009, 06:01 AM // 06:01

I like how the OP just smiter's boons skills, cus that always works!

also whats wrongs with wastrels collapse? I rarely get killed by these spikes, you must be pretty slow on the defensive stances or have monks with reaction times slower than a 3 legged turtle.

GourangaPizza · Sep 13, 2009, 06:29 AM // 06:29

@Revelations
I have an alternative to address those spamming interrupts rangers, change Spirit Shackles to have: reduced casting time of 2s, reduced duration of 5-8s, increase energy loss to 10e on attack skills.

Krill · Sep 13, 2009, 07:08 AM // 07:08

Jagged Strike & Black Mantis - Change back to full activation

There is a long history of fast activation attack skills being bad hum hum hum...

Fox Fangs - Not sure, keep an eye on it

Escape (PvP) - "While wielding a bow..."

Still viable for a split ranger, not that anyone really uses this anymore on bow rangers.

Lightning Reflexes - 9s duration @ 14 expertise

Long been a little too good for a combination IAS and defensive stance.

Aura of Restoration - No energy gain

AoR does way too much now, cheap cover, decent self healing and energy gain.

Immolate - Old damage or recharge nerf.

Since a 3s burn isn't worth using condition removal obviously, this skill is effectively 113 spell damage for 10e and highly spamable.

Meteor - Lower damage

105 damage and a KD is over the top for a non-elite skill, plus the usual 40% change for a half recharge.

Searing Flames (PvP) - 5s recharge.

Woo, yay, mathways.

Ether Prism - 15 energy gain @ 14 energy storage

Bring it more in line with OoS.

Mantra of Resolve - Needs more of a downside...

Battle Rage - 50% more adrenaline and 25% IMS

As is Battle Rage reeks of the old Steady Stance trash, D-Chop and Agonizing every three hits is a joke.

Warriors in general - Bring back Steelfang with 3 adrenaline and no recharge? How about a 5 adrenaline Cleave that doesn't suck?

Blood Necros - I'm sure there's already been plenty of ideas on how to tone this down.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Sep 13, 2009, 07:41 AM // 07:41

The update is coming (unless the entire live team contracts aids and intestinal cancer sometime this week) next thursday, afaik they already have the changes set in stone for this one so they won't change anything anymore for this update.

That being said I agree with some of the things the OP said, though I think party range Aegis would be a very bad idea and I also don't think making Aegis unviable on monks is the way to go as it would reduce the variety of midlines as at the specifics you suggest and the change to GolE Eles are simply the only profession that can run it without gimping their bars too much.

I also don't think Wastrel's Collapse is really a problem skill though I have no objection against it getting nerfed and your suggestion to Exhausting Assault is actually a buff.

Mind Blast is an issue though making it 5e will do very little to splitting Mindblasters and destroy the template in a more 8v8 kind of setting, hit the survivability of the template instead (I believe that's one thing they're trying to do for the next update).

Furthermore I would have to agree on Necro Enchantment removals being too powerful, Rip Enchantment is the prime offender, Corrupt Seems a little strong too but as it's Elite I'd be hesitant to nerf it too much, going 15-20r on rip and 12r on Corrupt would probably help a lot already.

I still think that WoH and Patient Spirit are 2 very problematic skills and for a big part the reason why Energy denial pretty much vanished, being able to heal someone up for ~230 health (including some a DF bonus) for only 5 energy at a very short cast/recharge is simply WAY too much. Increase the Recharge to 4s, drop the heal to ~80+~70 at 14 Healing, of course the healing on Healing Burst needs to be toned down slightly as well then so it isn't strictly better.

Patient Spirit also heals too much at the current energy cost, recharge and activation time, I'd change the recharge to 5s and drop the heal by ~20 points as a start and make some small buffs to skills like Dwayna's Kiss, Words of Comfort and maybe Orison of Healing and Ethereal Light too to give Heal monks a bit more options.

God_Hand · Sep 13, 2009, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Things that could use a NERF:

Armor of Sanctity
Conviction / Vow of Piety
Monks overloading on Defensive Skills
Defy Pain so people stop bringing it
R/A Escape Daggers
R/D Escape Scythe
N/x Blood / Curse Spam
E/Me Distortion MB
E/D Featherfoot MB
E/x Dual Attunements
Me/x VoR + Dom Hex Spam
A/x Palm Strike / Wastrel's Collapse Chains

Attribute Lines that could use a BUFF:

Swordsmanship
Wilderness Survival
Earth Magic
Spawning Power
Mysticism
Leadership
Command
Motivation

Just my 2 cents.

But hey, what the hell do I know?

Revelations · Sep 13, 2009, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth The Xx

I like how the OP just smiter's boons skills, cus that always works!

also whats wrongs with wastrels collapse? I rarely get killed by these spikes, you must be pretty slow on the defensive stances or have monks with reaction times slower than a 3 legged turtle.

Some mechanics just don't deserve to exist in the game, they're either broken powerful, or stupidly weak. The old "Incoming" is the most common example given for this, but it applies to skills like WE also. It effectively got smitersbooned when it got a revert, and the game was better off for it.

WC includes everything that was wrong with Shadow Prison. Somewhere back in earlier dev updates (cba looking for it atm) it was stated that SP was nerfed due to the fact that the combination of shadowstep + snare + combo primer was too powerful. WC is snare, shadowstep, combo primer AND knockdown, with an afterthought of a drawback-that-isn't-a-drawback. In a solo monk situation if you're against this and you don't have a stance, then you're effectively dead. It's impossible to preprot unless the sin is a complete retard, and doesn't give nearly enough of a drawback for it's power.

God_Hand · Sep 13, 2009, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

Aggressive Refrain

This is the first thing that needs to go on Paragons because it is basically free IAS. Paragons need to be forced into choosing between DPS and partybuffs to even start to be balanced. Before people come into say that its balanced lol or that it isn't an issue need to go read Greedy Gus's epic post.

Solution Ether Renewal, Smiters Boon.

No, no NO, GOD NO! The absolute last thing ANet needs to do right now is make Paras suck worse than they already do. Ever since the Finale of Restoration nerf, I don't think I've even seen one in game. I obs'd quite a few matches in August, and saw none. (Most everyone was using R/A Escape Daggers)

Without Aggressive Refrain, Paras must either take up their Elite with Soldier's Fury, or be forced to use their secondary for an IAS. Without an IAS, Paras do so little damage, and gain so much less adrenaline, it's not worth it.

The skill already gives them -20 armor. Nerf Paras any more, and you might as well just take them out of the game, cause it's been NERF NERF NERF from Day 1, so they were OBVIOUSLY a badly overpowered design... so why keep em in?

God_Hand · Sep 13, 2009, 08:05 AM // 08:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

WC includes everything that was wrong with Shadow Prison. Somewhere back in earlier dev updates (cba looking for it atm) it was stated that SP was nerfed due to the fact that the combination of shadowstep + snare + combo primer was too powerful. WC is snare, shadowstep, combo primer AND knockdown, with an afterthought of a drawback-that-isn't-a-drawback. In a solo monk situation if you're against this and you don't have a stance, then you're effectively dead. It's impossible to preprot unless the sin is a complete retard, and doesn't give nearly enough of a drawback for it's power.

Easy. Remove the Shadowstep.

Done.

Fabez · Sep 13, 2009, 08:11 AM // 08:11

Removing the Shadowstep results in an energy version of "Coward!" (or something close to it, at any rate), not going to happen.

I'll try writing a more intelligent/insightful post later, see you then.

Osiris_sam · Sep 13, 2009, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Quote:

In a solo monk situation if you're against this and you don't have a stance, then you're effectively dead. It's impossible to preprot unless the sin is a complete retard, and doesn't give nearly enough of a drawback for it's power.

patient spirit + good insignia on armour + pierce shield... once you survive the first hit, count to 20 and then cat guardian or sometihng on yourself... hes either gonna hit someone else, who you can heal/prot, or jump you midcast... either way, his combo is wasted

I agree that paragons with a basically free IAS is maybe too strong, but as mentioned, without it, they are severely lacking.

12s CE would be fine... rip is the main offender. Defile defenses could probably have 20-30 dmg taken off too, its almost more intelligent to not stance and get trashed by the war.

I Angra I · Sep 13, 2009, 08:39 AM // 08:39

I don't understand why they can't just revert all their assassin attack skill changes back to how they were. It's obviously the reason R/A's are so powerful. Are they too ashamed to admit they were wrong with a skill buff or something? If only escape is nerfed, R/A's will still be around.

kedde · Sep 13, 2009, 09:21 AM // 09:21

I've been saying the exact same thing.

Simply reverting a handful of skills in an emergency update really can't take long since they have all the information and code needed already.

Even if a lot of personel is ill, that little thing surely isn't a lot.

Darth The Xx · Sep 13, 2009, 09:26 AM // 09:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

WC includes everything that was wrong with Shadow Prison. Somewhere back in earlier dev updates (cba looking for it atm) it was stated that SP was nerfed due to the fact that the combination of shadowstep + snare + combo primer was too powerful. WC is snare, shadowstep, combo primer AND knockdown, with an afterthought of a drawback-that-isn't-a-drawback. In a solo monk situation if you're against this and you don't have a stance, then you're effectively dead. It's impossible to preprot unless the sin is a complete retard, and doesn't give nearly enough of a drawback for it's power.

Sry to break it to you, but WC has no snare, besides in today's meta if you're not running a stance you're using /D with AoS which is also more than adequate for dealing with a WC chain.

I do agree that WoH, PS, and Rejuv need a slight nerf, these 3 skills together churn out so much healing for little mana its crazy. A buff to other healing elites would be nice to give some other options, for example Healing Light, if it was brought down to say, 3/4c/3r and had its healing buffed 40 or change its conditional to remove a condition or hex or something so it might actually be decent. Healing Hands, Healing Burst even Glimmer all prime candidates for some love.

The fact that nearly all monk bars completely hinge on the elite needs to be addressed as well, but hey don't expect too much. You shouldn't be able to disable a monk as much as you can by nailing them with Hum sig, diversion or dshot or whatever.

I also agree that escape and mantra of resolve need a nerf, however making escape end on attack is basically taking away its elite status, you'd be far better off just taking stride. I'd make it only block while not attacking, like the opposite of flashing blades. As for resolve, needs to be something like 5 sec duration 10-15sec recharge so it lets you get off 1-2 spells at a time not free reign 24/7 with no fear of interrupts.

Xenex Xclame · Sep 13, 2009, 09:42 AM // 09:42

So bassacily fix everything by nerfing everything?Thats a nice way to go about and fix things.

So what do rangers do when Escape becomes just dodge with a bit of a higher maintainabilit?I know its kinda stupid to bring Escape when you can bring so many other nice Elites,but just nerfing it to a way its not even worth bringing,will simply create a underpowered skill instead of having a overpowered on.

I do like Krill's suggestion, it gets rid of R/D R/A R/P R/W using escape like that, but still leaves the Bow shooting ranger with a Elite that is somewhat less usefull then the other he can use, but still something that is useable

Mind Blast, no just the recharge not recharge AND energey gain.

GoLE is fine, ever since Ageis nerf there isnt really anything worth it to take this skill,some mesmers might take it , but thats simply because they have nothing decent from their one lines.

If Armor of Sanctity is nerfed i would like to ask for a pve/pvp split, seeing as in pve things just do too fast, the rechrage as it is now is fine.

GourangaPizza · Sep 13, 2009, 10:57 AM // 10:57

@xenex
If escape gets nerfed to oblivion then so be it since the point of having 75% block is moot when you can outkite everything with 33% ims. I can't see anet coming up with another RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO and bull story to leave escape untouched seeing this has been abused repetitively by R/Ws, R/Ds, R/As since its buff. If they have the guts to nerf p rage and WE they should have do so with escape too.

Bobby2 · Sep 13, 2009, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Quote:

Solution Make escape end on melee attack.

Rangers don't belong in the front line. Let Escape do what it was meant to do.

Jagged still sucks, it's the Fox Fangs buff that makes dag rangers viable. Revert this to its old 8 second recharge, maybe remove the "can't be blocked" cause.

pah01 · Sep 13, 2009, 01:03 PM // 13:03

Quote: