Curse

X Cytherea X · Sep 07, 2009, 10:01 PM // 22:01

if you guys are imagining it will be a strict "these-8-skills-only" per profession then yes a weekly rotation will be boring.

but if they leave some room for customization (like 1/3 of a profession's skills) it should be alright.

heck, people played costume brawl for awhile didnt they?

Regulus X · Sep 07, 2009, 10:09 PM // 22:09

TA/HB [two dead arenas] are being simplified into SD [one vegetable arena], requiring less work. Wow! Think of how much time and effort that saved Anet and their Live Team from having to otherwise actually balance shit?! =OOO Oh-Ehm-Eff-Gee, Gee-Gee!

Iotan · Sep 07, 2009, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billiard

Linsey seems to monitor things very closely, so I imagine that if weekly decks didn't work well in the aggregate (that is for the majority of the players in the format and not just the upper echelon) then she could have the decks change more frequently.

The upper echelon seems to drive the meta in every format there is, which would be especially true in a random-pairing format like the current TA (as opposed to ladder format of GvG.) Like others have mentioned, once you get face stomped by the weekly meta build, you are likely to change to that build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

but if they leave some room for customization (like 1/3 of a profession's skills) it should be alright.

This defeats the purpose of a sealed deck. With this method, my monk would grab Patient Spirit, Cure Hex, and Mend Condition and leave the rest of the skill slots blank, as opposed to deck skills of Healing Ribbon and Supportive Spirit.

As with all sealed decks, a few game changing skills (WoH, PS) far outshine most of the other trash. It will be interesting how this arena is implemented.

Red Apple · Sep 07, 2009, 11:04 PM // 23:04

I agree with OP point of view, both parties MUST have the same skill pool, it must be knowledge of skills over lucky chance of getting overpowered skills, else it would be pretty much the same as HB, I dont want my match to be decided by a rock-paper-scissor factor all alone...again.

Also, I dislike the idea of the pools being "global" for a day, even if it is for just a few hours, as it might just spoil the fun of fighting other players who might just have started playing an hour ago (obviously unfair) and already tried the pool and figured out how to use the skill pool in a efficient way, in other words it would be a mini pvx.

I would like to enjoy the pressure of having to choose quickly a skill set for my team, and hardly ever re-use the same last templates in another match. So a time lasting pool is a no no for me and for everyone who wants something unique and completely different from the current problems that are present in PVP and PVE, I'm referring to the standardized/mustbelikethis build team elitist parties.

I think the player will be allowed to choose which of the skills can be used and segregated from a match. For instance:

*I could choose to use Core only skills.
*I could choose to play on a pool based on Faction only skills.
*I could choose to play only with Prophesies and Nightfall skills.

This is an obvious infer as I don't see Anet allowing a player to have a unbalanced situation in which skills of different campaigns (which he doesn't own) limit its success for wining a match.

Not satisfied with this I would like to also be able to select more specific filters for the skill pool. In exemple:

*I could choose to only join matches in which only Faction and Core skills are used and no Elite skills are allowed.
*I could choose whether a specific pool may not have any hex skills on it.
*I could choose to join only matches in which only warrior skills are allowed.
*I could choose to join only matches in which only specific profession attributes are allowed.

Some problems might surge from letting players to be able to choose what kind of rules to play by (I'm thinking of Monk vs Monk almost null dps problem) , but adding some locks to end matches like the GvG ones which makes the team which dealt more damage to win the match and so so can perfectly prevent any lock for finishing the matches, making this possible and incredible to play.

I don't expect anything less than this for the new pvp features, anything slightly less dynamic would be the same from the current metagame problems which are what I think Anet is trying to avoid this time in order to make this attractive for both veteran and new players.

evenfall · Sep 08, 2009, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

if you guys are imagining it will be a strict "these-8-skills-only" per profession then yes a weekly rotation will be boring.

but if they leave some room for customization (like 1/3 of a profession's skills) it should be alright.

heck, people played costume brawl for awhile didnt they?

If anet uses their own sealed deck rules, the pool to choose from will be 20 skills per player, i.e. 80 skills for 4v4.

sLiceR · Sep 08, 2009, 06:39 AM // 06:39

yep and that is exactly an average of 8 skills per profession

xDementia · Sep 08, 2009, 10:20 AM // 10:20

Should be mirror for sure.

Daily vs weekly skill pool changes is one thing, but the size of the skill pool matters more than you might think. If there are too many available for each profession, its going to look like "constructed" play because there is no need to choose among the crappy skills. If there are fewer skills it becomes a necessity to do so.

Another thing that might or might not be of interest is how it could be used as a tool for skill balancing... because it reduces possibilities and offers the chance to remove skills from the game for a short time. Yes the game is balanced around GvG and with different objectives there are different skill sets and so on... but while skills like run buffs, snares, hard rezes, self heals are not that great in 4v4, there are skills that are part of offense vs defense vs shutdown that are widely used in both formats over the next equivalent set of skills.

Just an idea anyway

X Cytherea X · Sep 08, 2009, 11:23 AM // 11:23

hmm let's see how they implement it

Winstar · Sep 08, 2009, 03:03 PM // 15:03

I know using the AT system has been mentioned as a possibility, but has there been anything more concrete said about it or is it something they'll consider implimenting once the format has been kicking around a bit?

Even if the format uses a weekly pool, having ATs with new pools each time would provide some compensation for players who wouldn't enjoy a weekly rotation. I think its also less likely that people who just want causual play would be involved in the ATs, and thus you wouldn't be hurting them.

Kaon · Sep 08, 2009, 04:54 PM // 16:54

What about a ladder? A team arena ladder has probably been the most wanted thing in PvP ever, how cool would it be if there were a Sealed Deck ladder.

FoxBat · Sep 08, 2009, 05:38 PM // 17:38

If you go back and read the original statement, Linsey said "ATs and Ladder would come later IF THINGS WENT WELL (I.E. people actually play the weekly casual version)." Likewise they are also planning some scrimmage options with customizable rules, but again that will not make the september update.

Beren985 · Sep 08, 2009, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Daily rotation is a must. Or else we'll get stuck with a weird weekly shifting 4vs4 as tedious as the one we have today. Ideally, I'd like to have one different mirrored deck per battle, but a daily rotation is a good enough approximation, weekly would kill the entire point of the format.

wuzzman · Sep 09, 2009, 04:46 PM // 16:46

You guys are full of lol and fail. You wont get "pools" of skills, you will get pools of builds/decks. A skill pool enters the debate of how many skills in the pool, which will probably be 8 total per profession and having to cycle through 40 + skills in one profession and choose 8 randomly that may or may not have any synergy whatsoever will produce plenty of crying and feel to much like random arenas. Besides within the hour 1 build will be chosen as the default build for that day or week anyway.

But with a deck pool there is no need to deck build on according to random skill selection or even change the selection every day or week. You have 2 or 3 builds per profession so for example if you pick Warrior you will have a choice between the standard Axe Warrior, Sword Warrior, and Hammer Warrior. Anet will make the "standard" builds and players will pick them. This provides no need to balance, any build considered overpowered can be removed and replaced, no one will be complaining about only getting RC for monk elites when everyone is running spike builds like they would in a skill pool format. I'm sure the deck pool is where Anet is heading.

Welcome to the game you guys wanted happy gaming.

Chocobo1 · Sep 09, 2009, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

You guys are full of lol and fail. You wont get "pools" of skills, you will get pools of builds/decks. A skill pool enters the debate of how many skills in the pool, which will probably be 8 total per profession and having to cycle through 40 + skills in one profession and choose 8 randomly that may or may not have any synergy whatsoever will produce plenty of crying and feel to much like random arenas. Besides within the hour 1 build will be chosen as the default build for that day or week anyway.

But with a deck pool there is no need to deck build on according to random skill selection or even change the selection every day or week. You have 2 or 3 builds per profession so for example if you pick Warrior you will have a choice between the standard Axe Warrior, Sword Warrior, and Hammer Warrior. Anet will make the "standard" builds and players will pick them. This provides no need to balance, any build considered overpowered can be removed and replaced, no one will be complaining about only getting RC for monk elites when everyone is running spike builds like they would in a skill pool format. I'm sure the deck pool is where Anet is heading.

Welcome to the game you guys wanted happy gaming.

You have no idea what Sealed Deck is do you.

wuzzman · Sep 10, 2009, 12:16 AM // 00:16

I have a good idea of Anet version will be.

God_Hand · Sep 10, 2009, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beren985

Ideally, I'd like to have one different mirrored deck per battle, but a daily rotation is a good enough approximation, weekly would kill the entire point of the format.

This. 100% this. Weekly is too long, but Daily vs. Per Match is still up for debate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

You guys are full of lol and fail. You wont get "pools" of skills, you will get pools of builds/decks. A skill pool enters the debate of how many skills in the pool, which will probably be 8 total per profession and having to cycle through 40 + skills in one profession and choose 8 randomly that may or may not have any synergy whatsoever will produce plenty of crying and feel to much like random arenas. Besides within the hour 1 build will be chosen as the default build for that day or week anyway.

But with a deck pool there is no need to deck build on according to random skill selection or even change the selection every day or week. You have 2 or 3 builds per profession so for example if you pick Warrior you will have a choice between the standard Axe Warrior, Sword Warrior, and Hammer Warrior. Anet will make the "standard" builds and players will pick them. This provides no need to balance, any build considered overpowered can be removed and replaced, no one will be complaining about only getting RC for monk elites when everyone is running spike builds like they would in a skill pool format. I'm sure the deck pool is where Anet is heading.

Welcome to the game you guys wanted happy gaming.

You are completely, unequivocally, utterly, totally wrong, and I am thus forced to conclude:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocobo1

You have no idea what Sealed Deck is do you.

I can't see Sealed Deck working. It's a good concept, but there are skills that are going to be tossed aside again and again, even in Sealed Deck. Then there's the question of when to change "decks". Every match? Every few hours? Every day? Every week? If you don't change it often enough, it gets stale. But with the "each match is unique" option, you run the risk of players dropping if/when they get into a match where most of the skills for their profession suck.

I mean, if my three elites are Practiced Stance, Famine, and Spike Trap, chances are I just won't run an elite on my bar. And if the best options available to me after that are Called Shot, Focused Shot, and Arcing Shot for bow attacks, I might quit and try to roll something better.

And what happens if I get Patient Spirit? Can I just not use it because I don't have EotN? That doesn't sound like fun at all, to be honest.

wuzzman · Sep 10, 2009, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Which is why pre-selected builds will probably be the way anet plays this. Otherwise its arc shot + mending vs arcane echo + earthquake. go go go.

Winstar · Sep 10, 2009, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

But with the "each match is unique" option, you run the risk of players dropping if/when they get into a match where most of the skills for their profession suck.

And what happens if I get Patient Spirit? Can I just not use it because I don't have EotN? That doesn't sound like fun at all, to be honest.

I can't see an each match is unique option. You're right that these are limitations of the format for people who aren't UAX or don't have all the expansions. But for players who are UAX or close can just roll a character to fit the skills in the pool. The longer the pool is out, the more time non UAX players have to unlock skills for that period. Its a matter of ANET choosing a compromise between keeping it fresh for experienced players and making it accesible for inexperienced ones.

As for the expansions, this might seem heartless, but thats something they have to deal with. People without expansions couldn't use those skills in GvG/TA/RA/HA either. In those formats if you don't have the skills you have to make due with what you have available. Sealed is a little less forgiving in one sense given that you have fewer suitable alternatives in the limited card pool. Yet in another sense sealed may even be more forgiving than these other formats with the possibility of generating pools from restricted sets of skills.
---

At the upper end of play, an AT format seems to suit sealed very well. Each AT generates a pool of skills for that event an hour before it begins when signup starts. Teams register, see the pool of cards and make builds. In wait times between rounds teams can make adjustments as they see fit.

Add to that open ladder player with a skill pool that lasts x days where players can build from those decks and get random matches with other teams.

Add to that a casual play option where teams can challenge one another (as with scrims in gvg) but have control over which expansions are available for generating decks. A skill pool is generated for both teams based on their preferences and they have so much time to build before a match starts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

Which is why pre-selected builds will probably be the way anet plays this. Otherwise its arc shot + mending vs arcane echo + earthquake. go go go.

The pools you generate are generally much better than you suggest. Nonetheless, its a lot fun building with limited pools of cards and being forced to try to make use of skills you might not otherwise. In any given pool, of course there will be unused skills, but I don't really see the problem with this.

The format basically comes from limited/sealed formats in MTG which are very successful. Not always having the most power skills in the game available to you doesn't make for a worse game, in fact it makes for an interesting one.

ChopChop · Sep 10, 2009, 02:55 AM // 02:55

There will be a set amount of skills available per profession, so you will not have the same issue that plagued other sealed formats which is having some decks lack any form of healing etc.

It is highly likely that you can bring any number of the same skill on a team so you can be like 'sealed monk lfg' and do not have to worry about adjusting skills based on what everyone else in your team brings.

It is also likely that decent players will figure the 'almost optimal' build out in a day or 2, and the rest of the week we are left tweaking attribute points and secondary skills.
The first few weeks could be slightly better as it will take a little while to adjust exactly to what works in a sealed format.

The reset will probably be on Sunday or Monday screwing over the maximum possible amount of people who will not be able to play those days.

And I know for a certainty that wuzzman is wrong.

God_Hand · Sep 10, 2009, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winstar

As for the expansions, this might seem heartless, but thats something they have to deal with. People without expansions couldn't use those skills in GvG/TA/RA/HA either. In those formats if you don't have the skills you have to make due with what you have available.

Think of Sealed Deck like this, for a moment, if you would: What if a player only had 2 out of the 5 skill sets available (Core and either Proph, Fac, or Nightfall)? Let's go with extremes and say that this player only had Prophecies (It has the lowest skill count because there are only six professions). He gets the 241 core skills, and the 214 Prophecies skills. This gives the player a total of 455 skills out of 1235 in the game.

(455 / 1235) * 100 = 63.14

What this means is: if you pick one skill at random, there is a 63% chance that he can't use it.

(63 / 100) * 20 = 12.6

Now what this means is: if you deal that player 20 skills (as in Sealed Deck), statistically, either twelve or thirteen of them will be unusable.

This is a problem, and the solution is not "deal with it", or "use the alternatives".

And it's not just a problem in Sealed either. It's a problem with every format in the game: having to shell out more money to ANet to stay competitive (Patient Spirit, Cure Hex, etc). Granted, it's a brilliant marketing ploy, but it doesn't work when the game is over four years old.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChopChop

And I know for a certainty that wuzzman is wrong.

That's comforting.