Curse

Reverend Dr · Oct 17, 2009, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

The biggest flaw of your strategy is that it requires the opposition to be mentally challenged.

You are on ancestral. If they have good players, you've already lost; if they had good players you wouldn't even be here.

2 channeling monks regularly keep up teams in HA, so expecting to be able to hold off a 4v8 for a few minutes isn't exactly stretching in ability. I don't really understand how you think 2 monks won't have spike protection.

When players rez, they don't always rez with their team. As a matter of fact they usually rez on their own. Either they run out alone and it isn't a stretch of a fire ele + warrior (or IoP mesmer, like we'd use a dom mesmer for this) to take down an isolated character. If they don't run out alone then we are holding them in the base and doing exactly what we set out to do.

Bobby2 · Oct 17, 2009, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

2 channeling monks regularly keep up teams in HA, so expecting to be able to hold off a 4v8 for a few minutes isn't exactly stretching in ability. I don't really understand how you think 2 monks won't have spike protection.

No defensive midliners. I'd definitely want some stances in there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

When players rez, they don't always rez with their team. As a matter of fact they usually rez on their own.

Notsomuch when you are causing team wipes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Either they run out alone and it isn't a stretch of a fire ele + warrior (or IoP mesmer, like we'd use a dom mesmer for this) to take down an isolated character. If they don't run out alone then we are holding them in the base and doing exactly what we set out to do.

Fair enough. But IoP? /facepalm

Reverend Dr · Oct 18, 2009, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Learn to channel tank and you can deal without stances or defensive midliners for about 2-5 minutes. This isn't to say we don't ever wipe, but the longer you can hold out vs a mob the more time they are not spending capping.

We've done this quite a bit, people rez alone, groups rezzing is by far the exception. Even if we get group rezes and they have to fight past us to get to the teleporter ignoring two shrines that are ten feet from their spawn, awesome.

ManaCraft · Oct 18, 2009, 10:14 AM // 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohfqhi3TWP4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1yHFKVBGCY

my first attempt at doing something like this. hopefully you find this informative.

Disagree on the kurzick opening move. You should always, always, always go for capping both equipment shrines before making a push toward the res shrines. There is absolutely no reason why you should accept a one shrine disadvantage from the start. Kurzicks generally are able to get into cap range on the northeast side before the luxons finish capping the shrine. Yes, you likely won't make it if you go round the cliff on the west side like you're drawing, because that route is slightly longer. Teams that know what they're doing will go around the cliff to the east side and make it into range before luxons cap the shrine.

The same is true for the southeast equipment shrine. The luxons will make it into cap range before you do. That does not mean you shouldn't challenge the shrine if the luxons are there. All things being equal kurzicks should win any battle at either equipment shrine due to NPC advantage. The odds are in your favor to take both equipment shrines right from the start (and wipe a luxon team in the process), so play the odds!

The second reason why you don't go for res shrines before securing the equipment shrines is that good luxon teams will force a stalemate, and this turns that one shrine disadvantage you're describing into a major problem. Even if the kurzicks get a kill or two, the luxons will resurrect at the very shrine you're trying to cap, prolonging the process until the kurzick group is inevitably wiped. The rule for capping resurrection shrines is no different on ancestral lands than any other map: cap them decisively, or not at all. Only if your side controls the majority of the shrines should you ever actively seek out a stalemate.

- Mana

moriz · Oct 18, 2009, 12:37 PM // 12:37

even if the kurzicks can get into range of the NE shrine, they still won't be able to cap it. it's very simple for the luxons to simply force them out of range. btw, how the hell are the kurzicks going to approach it from the east? they spawn west of it, and for them to reach the east side, they'll have to run all the way around. either way, they won't be able to take it if the luxons are not completely idiots.

the point of that particular opening move is to catch one of the res shrines undefended and take it. practically no team is capable of doing that 2/2 split to take the bridge attack shrine while simultaneously defend the res shrine.

Bobby2 · Oct 18, 2009, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

We've done this quite a bit, people rez alone, groups rezzing is by far the exception.

Your exception is pretty much my rule. I repeatedly have to remind my team (and myself) to leave one or two alive instead of wiping all 4.

Which is hard enough with tunnel vision... punishing on Ancestral when there's suddenly a whole team on an otherwise easily cappable bridge res (cue team chat: "OMG MASS SPAWN", "MOB!", "HAAAAAALP" etc)

Perfected Shadow · Oct 19, 2009, 04:45 AM // 04:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

btw, how the hell are the kurzicks going to approach it from the east? they spawn west of it, and for them to reach the east side, they'll have to run all the way around. either way, they won't be able to take it if the luxons are not completely idiots.

You're talking about going through the teleporter, mana is talking about going through the gate where you can approach the cap point (high ground) from the left or right. Pretty sure going through the gate is faster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManaCraft

All things being equal kurzicks should win any battle at either equipment shrine due to NPC advantage.

That depends on your team's connection + ims skills ; ). The number of times that both NPCs had been taken before I've even loaded is countless.

tmakinen · Oct 19, 2009, 06:45 AM // 06:45

I agree with ManaCraft that the strongest opening move for the Kurzicks is to take both side shrines first. Deploying all teams on the two side gates, they can have 6+1 players on both sides (counting NPCs) if one team splits and each split team takes one NPC. Regardless of which way the Luxon base team goes, they are faced with opposition that can take the shrine by sheer numerical advantage. While it is technically possible for a skilled PvP oriented Luxon team to prevail in the fight (which requires getting a couple of fast kills to even the odds a bit) the task is usually complicated further by the unopposed other shrine team swinging back to aid their comrades. Furthermore, even if you are a member of such a team, you have only a 1/3 chance of being deployed at the base. Since for Kurzicks taking the side shrines first has very favorable odds for ending with a 4 to 3 shrine advantage and one broken enemy team, with relatively low requirements for interteam coordination, I would strive to use it by default.

moriz · Oct 19, 2009, 01:15 PM // 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow

You're talking about going through the teleporter, mana is talking about going through the gate where you can approach the cap point (high ground) from the left or right. Pretty sure going through the gate is faster.

no i wasn't. i was talking about going through the gate also. the luxon team jumping through THEIR teleporter will be faster no matter what.

and doing a 6/6 split for the two attack shrines is not a very good idea. the SE shrine would be taken by the kurzicks most of the time even without this tactic, and the NE shrine will likely be taken by the luxons even if there's 6+1 kurzicks rushing it. all the luxons need to do there, is to rush the shrine and then position themselves slightly off of it, to force a confrontation with most of the kurzicks out of range of that shrine. this doesn't require a particularly skilled team.

ManaCraft · Oct 19, 2009, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

even if the kurzicks can get into range of the NE shrine, they still won't be able to cap it. it's very simple for the luxons to simply force them out of range. btw, how the hell are the kurzicks going to approach it from the east? they spawn west of it, and for them to reach the east side, they'll have to run all the way around. either way, they won't be able to take it if the luxons are not completely idiots.

Incorrect. Barring the presence of heavy snares, the luxon group at the NE equip shrine will have little hope of denying the kurzicks access to the shrine unless they actually manage to cap it, which they generally don't have enough time for. A kurzick group making their way out through the north gate will usually make it into cap range before the luxon group can finish capping the shrine. From there, the luxon group is outnumbered and should lose the fight.

Obviously you would never try to make a play for an equipment shrine if you're going through a teleporter. In that case you are entirely committed to the res shrine, simply because you can't get to the equip shrine fast enough. Any kurzick group going for either equipment shrine should go through the corresponding gate, which is much faster. It is clear that the OP considers this scenario for the NE equip shrine, but as I said he assumes the kurzick group will move around the cliff to the west (left hand) side (you can see him move the mouse cursor that way around the cliff area at 1:10 and he also draws the route at 2:45). This, however, is a losing move. Going around the cliff on the east (right hand) side is slightly faster and will get the kurzick group into cap range sooner.

On a related note, the OP is correct in choosing the NE equip shrine for the seemingly doomed luxon base group - not so much because of the cliff, but because the base team has a good chance of receiving reinforcement from the NW res shrine group, provided that the bridge teams move clockwise around the map as suggested.

- Mana

moriz · Oct 19, 2009, 03:20 PM // 15:20

assuming the kurzick group comes out of the NE gate, they can either run around to the west, or the SE ramp. both ramps are of equal length, and both will take the same amount of run time. no matter which way they go, the luxon group on the shrine can simply shift over slightly in that direction and deny access to that shrine (as in, luxon group stands within capping range). kurzick group will either have to fight the luxon group, in which case they'll lose the shrine, or they have to run right through the luxon group, in which case they'll likely die.

Reverend Dr · Oct 19, 2009, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Your exception is pretty much my rule. I repeatedly have to remind my team (and myself) to leave one or two alive instead of wiping all 4.

This isn't TF2, there aren't respawn waves.

What I said isn't based upon what I think happens based upon what we do out skirmishing and capping shrines, its based upon sitting in their base, camping it, and watching for resurrections.

Perfected Shadow · Oct 19, 2009, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

no i wasn't. i was talking about going through the gate also. the luxon team jumping through THEIR teleporter will be faster no matter what.

I guess I should've mentioned that I was talking about the kurzick opening which was what mana was talking about anyway

ManaCraft · Oct 20, 2009, 08:03 AM // 08:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

assuming the kurzick group comes out of the NE gate, they can either run around to the west, or the SE ramp. both ramps are of equal length, and both will take the same amount of run time. no matter which way they go, the luxon group on the shrine can simply shift over slightly in that direction and deny access to that shrine (as in, luxon group stands within capping range). kurzick group will either have to fight the luxon group, in which case they'll lose the shrine, or they have to run right through the luxon group, in which case they'll likely die.

Fair enough. I'll still stand by my analysis though. In any case, it looks like this argument has run its course, so I suppose we can simply agree to disagree.

- Mana

Another Child · Oct 24, 2009, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

the common luxon opening move is "everybody run clockwise!" which means the eastern group goes to the SE. as i mentioned in the video, that's a bad idea because they'll almost certainly run into a five man (maybe even six man, depending on if the group picked up both npcs) mob, and be forced into a fight that they cannot win. a much better opening is "everybody run counterclockwise!" i don't know why they don't do this... maybe it's because "clockwise" is easier to type in team chat.

kurzicks opening with the western gate is almost always a bad idea. they'll be forced to run around the platform to go up the staircase at the back, and be forced to take hits all along the way. not to mention, the staircase is a very narrow chokepoint and a single nuker with a bodyblock on the stairs will kill them all.

Sorry haven't read through the whole thread or watched the vids yet (am about to!), but had to jump in here and say it really is because "clockwise" is easier to type in team chat, in a way.

It's the "keep it simple, stupid" principle. You've got 8 players you don't know on your team, and the average AB player isn't too capable of team play, to put it mildly. You sometimes have to sacrifice clear advantages so that your plan is comprehensible to the people you're hoping will follow it.

Yes, "counterclockwise" is a massive stretch for most of these guys. Try suggesting your team go counterclockwise a few times. On the odd occasion where someone doesn't say "your mom goes counterclockwise" and you get a general consensus from team leaders, you'll be able to happily watch your team get destroyed as anywhere from 3-9 players abandon their teams to run clockwise.

I notice this is in response to capping NE eq shrine which is definitely my preferred course, unless I spawned at a res, because I'm not going to ask another team to do something that "complex". If they're good enough to handle it, there's a good chance they'll be doing it anyway. I'm obviously not doing it if I'm not leading my group, because the worst possible plan is planning to argue with the leader, and I probably won't do it in my first game with a pug either, since it helps to build a little trust before you start suggesting things that are outside what they are comfortable with.

The same thing could be said about any strategy in any game in my experience.