Curse

Jeydra · Oct 09, 2009, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

I love when problems aren't addressed because something more powerful enters play.

What do you mean it wasn't addressed? Steam got nerfed didn't it?

Farin · Oct 09, 2009, 01:48 AM // 01:48

MoI is ridiculously suceptible to enchantment removal, I don't get all this bitching.

Water eles are only good for a while. Usually after people stop being stubborn (as they usually are) and they start bringing counters to water hexes. It has happened meta after meta, remember HeV?

The thing is, people don't wanna change anything they do. Keep the guys enchantments down and he has zero damage output.

I of course don't expect this to happen, people bitched about 60 recharge conjure enchantments.

Also: byob

Reverend Dr · Oct 09, 2009, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

What do you mean it wasn't addressed? Steam got nerfed didn't it?

And that sure did address the root concerns about Me/E.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 09, 2009, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajsnuker

OMG...dont nerf again.... they already nerfed td MoI to ruin kappa spike.

Yeah, stupid Anet, ruining interesting and strategically deep builds such as kappa spike!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farin

MoI is ridiculously suceptible to enchantment removal, I don't get all this bitching.

You're basically forced to run Rend/Strip Enchantment just to deal with it though, if Dom mesmers were actually viable it wouldn't be that problematic though, I agree (although I imagine they'd just bring Aura instead of Glowing Ice if that were the case).

Quote:

Water eles are only good for a while. Usually after people stop being stubborn (as they usually are) and they start bringing counters to water hexes. It has happened meta after meta, remember HeV?

HeV was a rather dumb skill though, it basically meant no one dared to run water eles as HeV was such a huge counter to it.

Once HeV got nerfed people started running water eles again and they were pretty well balanced in comparison to other midline options (paragons, air eles, etc.).

Of course you could bring some more hex removals and water eles wouldn't be that much of a problem (or more deep enchantment removals in the case of MoI) if something is strong enough to bring despite direct counters being around in just about every meta build though, doesn't that tell you it's problematic by itself?

And is MoI really worth keeping around in the first place? It has been defining water eles (and mes/eles) for a long time already and all it does is turn them into snarebots with huge spike potential.

I for one much prefered water trident eles, icy shackles eles or even Shatterstone splitters. I miss Frozen Burst

Silent Treason · Oct 09, 2009, 08:27 AM // 08:27

Quote:

And is MoI really worth keeping around in the first place? It has been defining water eles (and mes/eles) for a long time already and all it does is turn them into snarebots with huge spike potential.

I for one much prefered water trident eles, icy shackles eles or even Shatterstone splitters. I miss Frozen Burst

Whats the big deal about having to run a deep strip in order to counter a template that almost every single build has?

Saying that all it does is turn water eles into snarebots is pretty stupid, because that is what they are meant to do. Why do you prefer those water templates over the current one?

I do agree that the damage of MoI should be toned down a bit, but it definitely shouldn't be destroyed.

Freezing Gust is crucial. Shard Storm is fine. WE is a bit ridiculous(the recharge or cast time should be tweaked).

Quote:

The ridiculous strength of things stopping byob.

Paradise Lost · Oct 09, 2009, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farin

MoI is ridiculously suceptible to enchantment removal, I don't get all this bitching.

Also: byob

This.

kedde · Oct 09, 2009, 09:30 AM // 09:30

I would like to point out how this reminds of tombs shitters that have for ages been moaning about things like rspike.
On how it shouldn't be nerfed arguments by the people playing it constantly, just because common counters like interrupts that are present in the majority of builds are viable doesn't mean its necessarily properly balanced.

A while back water eles would either have to choose between greater snare potential in mindfreeze, trident or shackles to have 2, maybe in extreme cases 3 snares since they had to have some damage.
Alternatively they'd opt for shatterstone for nice damage, but only have 1, and in rare cases 2 snares.

Trident was easy to dodge, as was shardstorm.
Freezing gust was much less of a problem when water eles either didn't have ridiculous amounts of utility space for emanagement, and couldn't afford to burn gust or a different snare for damage purposes every other time.

Shutting down one snare meant a lot, currently it does not.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 09, 2009, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silent Treason

Whats the big deal about having to run a deep strip in order to counter a template that almost every single build has?

The fact that almost every build has an MoI ele doesn't alarm you in any way? Defensive midliners were traditionally one of the roles with the most build variety.

Quote:

Saying that all it does is turn water eles into snarebots is pretty stupid, because that is what they are meant to do. Why do you prefer those water templates over the current one?

Because they have(/had) room for utility beyond snares and spike damage.

Trident eles with Frozen Burst and even water eles with shackles and steam were infinitely more interesting than MoI eles because they could be played in more than one way and good players could actually differentiate themselves from mediocre ones.

Jeydra · Oct 09, 2009, 09:35 AM // 09:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

And that sure did address the root concerns about Me/E.

Well technically it did, didn't it - you wrote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Mostly MoI is just a confounded bar. Because MoI is so strong, the character can put three snares on the bar without giving up any damage. While freezing itself has needed a touch for a while, a hit to MoI will almost certainly see the bar getting moved back from three snares. I really don't have a problem when a character brings three separate snares, being able to actually snare someone; the problem is that this bar can bring the three snares and still keep up a very strong spike assist.

With Steam nerfed the Me/E is a character that can put three snares on the bar (2 the last time I saw Me/E's) while giving up damage. Without Steam it doesn't have very strong spike assist but can bring snares and snare people. Exactly what you're talking about. Right?

Or is there a fundamental difference between Elementalists and Mesmers such that Elementalists bringing 3 snares and not having a very strong spike assist is acceptable, while Mesmers bringing 3 snares and not having a very strong spike assist not acceptable?

Silent Treason · Oct 09, 2009, 09:36 AM // 09:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

The fact that almost every build has an MoI ele doesn't alarm you in any way? Defensive midliners were traditionally one of the roles with the most build variety.

Not really no. The same way that almost ever build having a warrior doesn't alarm me, how ever build having monks doesn't alarm me, how ever build having a rit runner doesn't alarm me, and how every build having a ranger doesn't alarm me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Because they have(/had) room for utility beyond snares and spike damage.

Trident eles with Frozen Burst and even water eles with shackles and steam were infinitely more interesting than MoI eles because they could be played in more than one way and good players could actually differentiate themselves from mediocre ones.

Good joke. They're utility was what, ward? draw? The reason you like them more is cause they had more room for utility rather than being a character with a single purpose?

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 09, 2009, 09:53 AM // 09:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silent Treason

Not really no. The same way that almost ever build having a warrior doesn't alarm me, how ever build having monks doesn't alarm me, how ever build having a rit runner doesn't alarm me, and how every build having a ranger doesn't alarm me.

The difference is those, warriors/rangers/monks don't run skill for skill the same builds (though monks do to an extent but they have at least some room for variety). (The fact that every build has a rit runner should be equally alarming but people have come to accept it more as it's been like this for near enough 2 years).

The fact that the most common build atm has essentially 3 defensive midliners should really say enough.

MoI eles (much like meta paragon builds which are also problematic) couple reasonable/good defense with insane spike potential, this is even their primary use.

Quote:

Good joke. They're utility was what, ward? draw? The reason you like them more is cause they had more room for utility rather than being a character with a single purpose?

Ward, Draw, Convert, PwK, Extinguish, a spike skill, etc. there were a lot of options and the eles weren't so much spike assists that could snare things should they run off but required good positioning (for wards/burst) and in general benefitted more from good micro and awareness.

ousbique · Oct 09, 2009, 09:56 AM // 09:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silent Treason

Not really no. The same way that almost ever build having a warrior doesn't alarm me, how ever build having monks doesn't alarm me, how ever build having a rit runner doesn't alarm me, and how every build having a ranger doesn't alarm me.

Actually, Rit runners , warriors, or rangers can have differents elites and a variety of secondary and/or skill's choice. Even protmonks can choose PnH in a dual-para team. MoI is the only non-hexes midline currently played in a large pool of teambuilds from "Balanced" to pure spike.

Where is the variety in MoI ele : the decision to take or not Rust for a stronger spike ? (Also this points the stupidity of Rust, buffed after the signets mesmers meta and the combo with MoI : nobody plays Rust for the anti-signet effect but only for spiking)

And finally, MoI eles are also extremely boring to play :[

Byron · Oct 09, 2009, 11:30 AM // 11:30

MoI, if fixed, wouldn't be so bad. Compile damage and make it not armor ignoring. The template in the meta is powerful at the moment, not because it is overpowered, but because people have generally forgone midline shutdown (and I wouldn't consider a ranger a shutdown character, though some people seem to). Any defensive midliner left totally unchecked proves problematic, and I wouldn't suspect an MoI ele to be different.

However, a bad skill is winter's embrace, which I imagine has been said, because it is like a hyper freezing gust. Something needs to be hit there (nerf to 10e, 1s cast ideally) to bring it in line with other water magic skills. Though I would prefer a total re-working so its not just another snare. An example of a skill that was needlessly buffed.

Killed u man · Oct 09, 2009, 11:34 AM // 11:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Trident eles with Frozen Burst and even water eles with shackles and steam were infinitely more interesting than MoI eles because they could be played in more than one way and good players could actually differentiate themselves from mediocre ones.

Yeah, I mean, with Trident Eles, you could actually opt to SNARE a guy, or simply KILL him. You could also defend the base, and snare/kill people there. Or snare Frontliners defensivly. Or even snare Monks for the warriors to hit shit.

Yeah, they had so much more utility than our current ele's?!

But in all seriousness, elaborate on this.

How were the old ele bars "more interesting"? I, for one, am all in favor for a MoI nerf, and some small nerfs to regular skills on the bar, BUT saying the old builds had more utility is bullshit.

If anything, the reason current water eles are overpowered is the versatility they have. They can easily kill a single warrior, or even ranger, in 15-20 seconds.
I've even seen an ele take it up against 2 Warriors. (Snare one with freezing gust, kill the other with shard storm/WE) He only killed on the end, but the warriors didn't even touch him...

On top of that, they often have some nice party/base support. I think it's safe to say this bars is probably one of the "best" support ele bars GW has seen in a long time. So good it's overpowered...

And on your "more than one playstyle":

This is completely out of context, concidering the sole job of a water ele has always been to snare. And this bar is one of the few ele bars that CAN be played in multiple ways. (Defensive snares, offensive, flag pushing, collapsing on gank teams, ...)
Look at rawrspike for that matter: 90% of GvG teams are dual para/ranger spike. How do they have more than 1 viable playstyle?
GvG has been reduced to a 3-2-1 flagstand showoff, and it has been for a long time. (Since rawr started winning golds)

So this arguement lost any value a long time ago.

I Jonas I · Oct 09, 2009, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

is there a fundamental difference between Elementalists and Mesmers such that Elementalists bringing 3 snares and not having a very strong spike assist is acceptable, while Mesmers bringing 3 snares and not having a very strong spike assist not acceptable?

There is a fundamental difference between ele's and mesmers. Mesmers for all useful purposes cannot be interrupted.

Burton2000 · Oct 09, 2009, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

The difference is those, warriors/rangers/monks don't run skill for skill the same builds (though monks do to an extent but they have at least some room for variety). (The fact that every build has a rit runner should be equally alarming but people have come to accept it more as it's been like this for near enough 2 years).

I too really dont see this as alarming as theres always going to be certain positions on every team that will run virtually the same builds as every other team as you just want to have the best option for that specific job.

All monks run virtually the same skills because they are the best 8 skills at keeping their team alive. Runners have always ran the same bars from crip shot runner to eprod to SoR to rit runners. Thats because those were the best bars at the time for running a flag/defending base/keeping team alive.

The same could be said for the defensive midliner as well because people always want to take the best character possible for that job so be it B surge or Me/E or Paragon or w/e.

Nerfing the water ele bar too much will simply put it out of play as the B surge will become a stronger option and people will simply swap to that instead of water so then everyone will be running a bsurge if they want a defensive midliner.

Jeydra · Oct 09, 2009, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonas The Keen

There is a fundamental difference between ele's and mesmers. Mesmers for all useful purposes cannot be interrupted.

Is it fair to argue then that a Mesmer running Ethereal Burden + Kitah's Burden + Imagined Burden is overpowered (= 3 snares, no strong spike assist, impossible to interrupt for all useful purposes)?

Also, is it fair to argue that 40/40 Water sets are overpowered since a HCT or even a QCT would make it impossible to interrupt the snares as well?

Someone explain game balance to me because I just don't get it

Silent Treason · Oct 09, 2009, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Ward, Draw, Convert, PwK, Extinguish, a spike skill, etc. there were a lot of options and the eles weren't so much spike assists that could snare things should they run off but required good positioning (for wards/burst) and in general benefitted more from good micro and awareness.

See, I'm really trying to not consider you an idiot, but you're making it really hard.

No one, and I mean like no one, has ran Convert or Extuingish on a water ele template in an extremely long time. You're just saying things that could be run but that people never will.

Saying that the current water eles don't benefit from positioning but the old ones did is extremely stupid. You're telling me the "fun" water eles didn't stay behind the monks until a spike or a push? Or are you saying that they required more micro and awareness because they had PBAoE FB? Either way its a joke.

Ec]-[oMaN · Oct 09, 2009, 04:55 PM // 16:55

I think the cause for concern regarding any ele's of the 2009 generation is that now there are no diverse bars, or ones even with one utility, when I mention utility it's pertaining to party utility.

This thread reminds me of the "Why Nuking sucks" except these days nuking is fairly decent in the sense that ele's of any kind these days can pump out ridiculous damage compared to previous years.

The buff to Aura of resto, MOI, have turned rather fragile ele's who in the past could only afford to assist spike with one to two skills every other spike, these days they spam, can spike by themselves and assist whenever they please.

Realistically like others have mentioned when certain skills are left unchecked all you get is people running the better build, and those builds are now mostly damage oriented.

In the past if you wanted dmg on water ele's you either had to stack 2 water skills for gust to trigger dmg, or use ice spikes, shard storm, Shatterstone or spec into another elementalist line, or take something from another profession, splinter weapon and Ancestors Rage come to mind.

Before you had options depending upon what you wanted to do, Trident for snare KD especially useful on frozen, Shackles for greater spamablility of movement control which also acted as bar compression, or Mind freeze for spike builds and offered a very long and hard snare for your frontline to finish the job.

With powercreep what usually ends up always happening? That's right lack of diversity, what have we seen in the form of water templates in the last 8 months? MOI they simply do all of the above to people expectations(snare)except offer more in terms of dmg, and I think everyone can agree the damage spectrum is totally out of wack.

Reverend Dr · Oct 09, 2009, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Someone explain game balance to me because I just don't get it

Almost 5 years ago I bought a game. It was a fun game. It was a game that I enjoyed a lot. Now that game is not the same. There is no way to play the old version and the new version is a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing hell of a lot less enjoyable.

Balance is about player satisfaction. Look at how many people have just up and left this game. Look at how much people complain about this game. This is a poorly balanced game.