Curse

Silentbreath · Sep 11, 2009, 12:49 AM // 00:49

I was currently sitting on AB looking for a good pug group, couldnt find one. Much harder since I went to the kurzick side. Someone wrote those 2 simple and common posts in the chat:
(guy) : Randomway fails
(same guy) : GLF Ele Cap group

Yes, he's right, randomway fail, everyone knows it, even most of those playing randomway. Ele cap group are better then the randomways wammos, pet ranger, blood nec etc. But what he fails to realise is that his own group which have one or more ele loaded with aoe is also a bad group.

One could argue that a nuker has its use on Ancestrall land on Luxon's side. This is right at some extent, because you really have to take out the eles and mesmers up in the castle. But in any other case, nukers are bad.

Having a nuker on your team allow you to kill the npcs at a shrine faster, everyone knows that. Unfortunately, that is the -only- thing they can do. When facing another team of 4, they cannot help but standing casting long cast time spells which will do at most 40 dmg because people move out of the aoe. It is nearly as a 4v3. Your team wipes, then the team of 4 that wiped you cap a shrine while you're on the way to join back the field.

But then, many teams know that they arent made to fight 4v4, so they will try to go around enemy teams. The problem is, you can hardly/rarely go around a team which knows it is important to kill off an enemy team and cap while they are death. If you suceed to go around a team, the path you will have taken to do so will be too long and make you cap a shrine much later then the team you avoided.

Now some people might argue that they take nukers in their team and they have success, so all what I'm saying is crap. You can still have success with it. You have much more success then the majority of teams which are randomway. But, in a situation where you would have 12 players of equal skill level on both side, one side which has 1 nuker/team, the other side with skill bar designed to kill people, the issue is clear. The side designed to kill enemy teams will win. -nukers are bad-

moriz · Sep 11, 2009, 12:58 AM // 00:58

entirely untrue.

a nuker only needs about 2-3 AoE DoT skills to nuke a shrine. the rest of the bar can be damage support, utility, etc. they can be effective even in a 4v4 fight, especially when paired with a good warrior who can quarterknock. nothing like FORCING a target to eat every pulse of a nuke spell. lastly, they are excellent for ground control. a well placed nuke will either force opponents out of favourable locations, or roast them alive if they refuse to move. a single nuker with proper support can defend a narrow choke point like there's no tomorrow.

lastly, a team with a nuker can clear and cap shrines faster than a team without one. that means more time to hunt down opposing groups.

zelgadissan · Sep 11, 2009, 01:02 AM // 01:02

I don't see any problem with one per team, especially when you have a hammer warrior that can keep someone knocked for six seconds. They do pretty good at shrines with a pair of skills, then you've got stuff like Fall Back, WoW, something supporty.

Any more than one is overkill, but I don't see any problem with having at least one in a team.

Edit: meh, got beat by moriz, and he explained it better

Jeydra · Sep 11, 2009, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Nukers are great in AB.

If you are a nuker in a 4v4, are you REALLY going to cast Meteor Shower? Tenai's Heat? Searing Heat? That's stupid because your opponents are going to move out of it. Use something more suited to skirmish play. Immolate for example.

If you are a nuker, are you even going to get into a 4v4 in the first place? If you are, it's a problem with your playing skill, not a problem with the bar. 6v4 maybe. 4v4, unless your opponents are all bad / all low on health etc you simply refuse to fight and run.

Why do you think it's so hard to go around a team which knows it is important to kill off an enemy team when they can? You have speedboosts. Sure they have speedboosts as well but that doesn't mean they are faster than you. Snares don't matter since you shouldn't even get into aggro range.

If you have no nukers in the team, how are you going to find time to kill people AND cap at the same time?

You can argue the ideal case where there are 12 good players on both sides, but fact is, things like that do not happen in AB. Chances are very good that there are bad players on one or both sides, and if your build is able to take advantage of bad players then all the better.

I believe one should run two - yes two - nukers when attacking deep.

moriz · Sep 11, 2009, 01:32 AM // 01:32

nah, you still only need one nuker when attacking deep. also, nukers are perfectly fine in 4v4, even if all they do is casting rodgort's invocation on recharge. let's face it, RI does a TON of damage. throw in a few meteor's for disruption, and you've got yourself an excellent fighter in a 4v4 fight.

cognophile · Sep 11, 2009, 03:22 AM // 03:22

It's been a while since I did any AB, but I remember that fighting 4v4 was typically a waste of time if you could be capping instead. Plus, nukers are great at countering minion masters.

Dawn Angelheart · Sep 11, 2009, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I believe one should run two - yes two - nukers when attacking deep.

Yo! i run 3 nukers when attacking the deep. straight bomb the gate and in, one plants the keg. the two others take the walls, then the shrines and the walls, if anyone dies then they rez and try get you, Hello nukes on the stairs and then no1 comes near you without being blasted.

Saph · Sep 11, 2009, 03:38 AM // 03:38

Imo, you can never have enough nukers on your team. Its fun and helpful to sync builds with the other nukers of your team to wipe out enemies more efficiently. I know myself and guildies have ran all ele teams and could clear just about any other team we ran across. The key though is communication. While I can do a full nuker team with my guildies, and almost always take out other teams, I've had trouble replicating the same results with pugs.

Darth The Xx · Sep 11, 2009, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Immoalte
Mind Blast
Searing Heat
Meteor
Rodgorts Invocation
Fallback
Fireattune
Aura of Resto

How is this useless in a 4v4?

Alternatively

Shard Storm
Rust
Freezing Gust
Maelstrom
Glowing Ice/Winter's Embrace
Water Attune
Mirror of Ice
Amour of Mist

Reverend Dr · Sep 11, 2009, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelgadissan

I don't see any problem with one per team

Exactly this. AoE nukes are only really good for clearing shrines and a team only needs one nuker to clear a shrine. This leaves 3 and a half bars to be filled with speed boosts, snares, support, and anything else for skirmishes.

**Marty Silverblade** · Sep 11, 2009, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

especially when paired with a good warrior who can quarterknock. nothing like FORCING a target to eat every pulse of a nuke spell.

3 kurz NPC wars and 4 kurz melees attacking me + Earth Shaker (me) + Savannah Heat Ele (ally)... good times. People are genuinely stupid enough to stand in AoE, so you might as well make use of it.

moriz · Sep 11, 2009, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by cognophile

It's been a while since I did any AB, but I remember that fighting 4v4 was typically a waste of time if you could be capping instead. Plus, nukers are great at countering minion masters.

capping shrines won't win you games; capping and holding more shrines than your opponents win you games. what's the best way to hold onto more shrines than your opponents? defend your shrines. what's the best way to defend your shrines? killing your opponents, either in transit, or stand on a shrine and use npc advantage to overwhelm them. that means fighting in skirmishes, and yes, even 4v4.

Jeydra · Sep 11, 2009, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawn Angelheart

Yo! i run 3 nukers when attacking the deep. straight bomb the gate and in, one plants the keg. the two others take the walls, then the shrines and the walls, if anyone dies then they rez and try get you, Hello nukes on the stairs and then no1 comes near you without being blasted.

I'd take three nukers in a full PuG team, simply hoping that at least one will follow me around. Otherwise running 3 nukers gives up a lot of your ability to roll other teams, which I don't like.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

capping shrines won't win you games; capping and holding more shrines than your opponents win you games. what's the best way to hold onto more shrines than your opponents? defend your shrines. what's the best way to defend your shrines? killing your opponents, either in transit, or stand on a shrine and use npc advantage to overwhelm them. that means fighting in skirmishes, and yes, even 4v4.

The idea is for 3 out of the four members to defend the shrine while the Elementalist runs off to cap the next shrine.

A Fire Elementalist - at least one optimized to capping shrines - isn't the most effective character you can imagine for a 4v4. How often do you see such Fire Elementalists in TA anyway? Typically never, because if you're going to 4v4 you're better off using other classes. They're better than nothing, but not by too much ... which is why you don't want to fight 4v4s if you have a Fire Elementalist. You can roll bad teams (e.g. teams with no Monks). You can also roll good teams if you catch them at numerical inferiority. But you can't roll good teams in a straight 4v4, so no point trying ...

Darth The Xx · Sep 11, 2009, 06:57 AM // 06:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I'd take three nukers in a full PuG team, simply hoping that at least one will follow me around. Otherwise running 3 nukers gives up a lot of your ability to roll other teams, which I don't like.

The idea is for 3 out of the four members to defend the shrine while the Elementalist runs off to cap the next shrine.

A Fire Elementalist - at least one optimized to capping shrines - isn't the most effective character you can imagine for a 4v4. How often do you see such Fire Elementalists in TA anyway? Typically never, because if you're going to 4v4 you're better off using other classes. They're better than nothing, but not by too much ... which is why you don't want to fight 4v4s if you have a Fire Elementalist. You can roll bad teams (e.g. teams with no Monks). You can also roll good teams if you catch them at numerical inferiority. But you can't roll good teams in a straight 4v4, so no point trying ...

No fire eles in TA? what are you smoking ....

cognophile · Sep 11, 2009, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

capping shrines won't win you games; capping and holding more shrines than your opponents win you games. what's the best way to hold onto more shrines than your opponents? defend your shrines. what's the best way to defend your shrines? killing your opponents, either in transit, or stand on a shrine and use npc advantage to overwhelm them. that means fighting in skirmishes, and yes, even 4v4.

Last time I checked, there are 7 shrines, but each side only has 3 teams of 4. So, if one side has teams of 4 camping on 3 different shrines, that leaves 4 shrines open for capping by the other side. BTW, a single ele can easily run around and solo cap shrines.

Bobby2 · Sep 11, 2009, 07:53 AM // 07:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

which is why you don't want to fight 4v4s if you have a Fire Elementalist....

But you can't roll good teams in a straight 4v4, so no point trying....

Wrooooooong.

ALWAYS fight 4v4s when the situation allows for it, just don't limit yourself to one-dimensional (read: crap) skill bars. The most versatile example I can think of is tmakinen's toolbox, I always ask if my nuker can haz run dis build pls? Except Draw Conditions instead of Fall Back. For obvious reasons.

Also, I'm partial to curse necro's when not attacking Deep - MoP does a damn fine job when there's 2 warriors on the team, and they're easier to pilot well than nukers in a skirmish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cognophile

/snip

I lol'd, thanks

Jeydra · Sep 11, 2009, 08:38 AM // 08:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth The Xx

No fire eles in TA? what are you smoking ....

I said Fire Eles optimized for capping shrines ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

ALWAYS fight 4v4s when the situation allows for it, just don't limit yourself to one-dimensional (read: crap) skill bars. The most versatile example I can think of is tmakinen's toolbox, I always ask if my nuker can haz run dis build pls? Except Draw Conditions instead of Fall Back. For obvious reasons.

I won't pretend I like tmakinen's skill bar, I don't think it's fast enough. Weaknesses include:

1. Non-maintainable speedboost;
2. No self-heal limits use while away from team's Monk;
3. No shadowstep;
4. Quite little damage in a fight, especially after Steam nerf;

Personally I'm also skeptical that it can clear all shrines alone (in one chain - two chains is way too long). Without healing, I doubt the Elite Elementalist and Elite Warrior shrines in particular.

And of course the bar still isn't very useful 4v4

You've played with me before, you know what kind of bar I prefer and how I use it. I will avoid fighting 4v4s unless I know I can annihilate the other team fast. When I have the advantage though I'll ruthlessly use it; I in particular like gatecrashing fights with 2 elite NPCs behind my back (sigh can't have >2 anymore ...), turning what was originally a losing fight to a winning one, and moving on immediately after winning the fight.

The Res Orb change was a dramatic nerf to my playstyle, I still hate ANet for it

Catchphrase · Sep 11, 2009, 08:40 AM // 08:40

I think maelstrom is more than suffice in stalling the shrine's NPCs from casting anything for the team to finish off with ease without any use of any other AOE spells.

There are more hilarious stuff about those AB eles such as them using flame dijinn haste as IMS. Don't they realise they can drop e-storage to 9 and specced the rest in wilderness survival or shadow arts for improved survival chances with natural stride or dark escape?

Bobby2 · Sep 11, 2009, 09:12 AM // 09:12

Immolate over GoI. Maybe.

AP PBAoE Fire is a strong template when it comes to capping shrines, its successes you have had against PCs solely result from their lack of skill. Apart from nuking, that template is very weak when it comes to splitting, and is severely reduced in strength by the res orb nerf. #4 is a void argument.

Partly resulting from that, I do not consider the lack of self-heal on tmakinen's bar a downside, since it has forms of shutdown unavailable to the AP template.......

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

And of course the bar still isn't very useful 4v4

..............that also make it much more useful in a 4v4 setting (Blind, KD, with Draw also off-monk removal). Since it actually carries its weight in a fight, the incentive to stay with the team is much greater. #2 is also void.

Without relying on PBAoE there's absolutely no incentive for any Ele to run DP/DC (and could even be considered suicidal). Yes, you can overcome altitude differences - but you
- end up with 1 pip of cap influence (bad)
- are running returnway (in which case you'd have brought the offensive shadowstep on your melee)
There goes #3.

As for #1, I don't know what you had in mind. FDH + Dash goes a long way but it's not maintainable unless conditions are optimal.

My perspective in general:
- solo nukers are easy prey (especially, I'm sorry to say, the AP PBAoE variants).
- 3 vs 4 is a bitch. Even if you overcome the challenge you'll have been forced to fight much, much more defensively than you would have otherwise.
- 2 Heats and teamwork cap faster than a solo AP nuker + 3 stragglers.

If I were you I wouldn't bother with it any more.

Sindo · Sep 11, 2009, 11:29 AM // 11:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by cognophile

Last time I checked, there are 7 shrines, but each side only has 3 teams of 4. So, if one side has teams of 4 camping on 3 different shrines, that leaves 4 shrines open for capping by the other side. BTW, a single ele can easily run around and solo cap shrines.

Are you THAT thick headed? He's not talking about camping shrines. Of course you go around capping shrines, but when you see the other team approaching a shrine, defend it. He's saying to actually use your brain instead of running around in a mob.