Curse

AtomicMew · Dec 15, 2009, 10:30 PM // 22:30

First of all, I'm only r4, so I know I'm not great, but I've played orders for most of my fame.

FB! and MH! are not needed absolutely because 3/4 of the team has speed boosts and can run relic just fine. SoC can be brought on an ES war if you care. N/P gets owned and destroyed by any decent mez, ranger or hammer and will just be useless against any decent team. Yes I know how to fake cast, but why spend half your time doing that when you can just cast through interrupts with N/D? Pblock and PD go right through, but that's just two mutually exclusive skills you have to worry about, and still so much less you have to worry about than if you were N/P. SA rangers will give N/D a hard time, but its not like N/P fares any better against pressure melee.

I've won SO many battles solely because I was N/D and not N/P and the ranger couldn't touch me. So why do people insist on N/P?? I really don't understand.

pigdestroyer · Dec 15, 2009, 10:38 PM // 22:38

With make haste, you help the ghost moving faster, crucial in maps like courtyard/forgotten/ante, also you can keep make haste on a target 100% of the time, wich is infinitely times better than any self speed buffs. It is needed in any HA build. Of course if you only have intentions of farming the first 3 maps be my guest and run n/d.

I Angra I · Dec 15, 2009, 10:59 PM // 22:59

make haste and fall back are extremely needed skills in HA, for the reasons the person above me mentioned, and because make haste can be maintained 100% on relic runners rather than whatever speed buffs they have which most likely aren't up 100% of the time.

N/D is probably helpful for getting casts off but just try and position yourself better and swap to 40/40 sets (or in your case with orders, 40/20/20% enchant staff) when you really need to get something off. if a mesmer or ranger is giving you trouble try to position yourself on the other side of the field as him or something so you can at least get a few casts off while he isn't in your range and stuff.

also keep in mind that orders is the thing that everyone with interrupts is going to be focusing on the most in that build because it's one of the easiest things to interrupt that's still important. if they're camping you a ton just keep in mind that they aren't doing anything to the rest of your team then so they're getting out a lot of pressure without being harassed and that'll usually make up for not being able to get orders off.

but yeah mostly try just good positioning.

AtomicMew · Dec 15, 2009, 11:14 PM // 23:14

I still strongly disagree.

How do you "position" yourself when the mesmer or ranger basically just camps you wherever you go? It's impossible. Assuming they don't even snare you, which they probably will, FB! isn't even enough to get you out of range fast enough. And even if it were, that's easily ~5-10 where you're not even bothering to put OotV up.

Also, why try to position yourself, when you can just take a different build and cast right through and have OotV up 2-3 times as often?

If FB! and MH! are so important, why not just take a para, who also can support with shit like Anthem of Envy and weakness?

kedde · Dec 15, 2009, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Orders is better than a para.

Also, you should know by now the huge range of orders, so you don't even need to be in range.
It's not like you need to have FB/MH going on recharge in annihilation maps.
Therefore position more than anything else will help against interrupts when you play orders.
If some interrupt guy follows you, it should be damn logic that someone from your team goes back to rape him.

bitchbar player · Dec 15, 2009, 11:46 PM // 23:46

run decent builds, problems solved.

Krill · Dec 16, 2009, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom Bocca

run decent builds, problems solved.

^

Generally in any build, no matter how shitty you take all the skills needed to win objective maps. Those skills are make haste (relic runs), song of concentration (king of the hill) and snares (grasping earth or water snares, ward against foes for relic runs). The build you're playing dispenses with the snares because on a relic run you would just try to kill everything or gank their snare and runner. It's also nice to have some weapon spells for your monks and maybe resilient or shadow for the ghost but since warding was nerfed it's not absolutely necessary.

On your original point, going N/D with pious concentration will do nothing against a psychic distraction mesmer because it goes through. All you can do is hope the mesmer overextends and one of your rangers ganks him or do as Crom mentioned and play a better build. You can also cancel fake OoV a bunch of times hoping to burn up their energy and maybe get a few through on half cast. It's worth noting that while the mesmer is camping you he's not camping your monks so it's not a total loss if you can't get OoV up.

Point is, it makes the most sense for the OoV necro to bring the command skills so you at least have a chance on objective maps, even though in most cases your idiot teammates will fail at anything besides cycling attack skills on their target.

Killed u man · Dec 16, 2009, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom Bocca

run decent builds, problems solved.

Such as Rspike, Vpie Spike, Legoway...

Pretty much any build that can carry enough bitchbarplayers...

That was a low blow, my bad.

AtomicMew · Dec 16, 2009, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by kedde

Orders is better than a para.

My question was, why not bring a support para as well as orders? I know that SoC, FB and MH are important. Para could also support with AoF, AoE, AoW etc.

Quote:

On your original point, going N/D with pious concentration will do nothing against a psychic distraction mesmer because it goes through.

Everyone brings PD?

Krill · Dec 16, 2009, 03:06 AM // 03:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Everyone brings PD?

No, but there are a lot more dom mesmers since gwen was kicked out. If a ranger is camping you 9 out of 10 will bite the first time you cancel fake OoV, you don't absolutely need pious concentration. I've played OoV plenty of times on a nec rit for other builds and know how it goes. They will either make no effort to shut down OoV, a small random effort or throw everything on you to shut it down. You just have to make the best of it in the latter situation.

Now forget everything I said if you're playing this with the henchmen backline because any team that's not completely retarded will ghost gank on objectives and it's impossible to micro the henchmen to watch runners. In that case run your N/D bar and resign to go back to farm UW.

I Angra I · Dec 16, 2009, 03:16 AM // 03:16

also if a mesmer is really camping you all game and messing you up that badly, your team should be doing something to stop it, like get a melee on it or something for at least some of the time to make him kite/be kded/die. if there's a dom mes on the other team and he isn't even being pressured at all for an entire game, considering how squishy of a target he is, there's something seriously wrong with your frontline

deluxe · Dec 16, 2009, 06:15 AM // 06:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Angra I

make haste and fall back are extremely needed skills in HA,

http://i49.tinypic.com/2rcu8w0.jpg
Proven wrong.
No song, no MH, no FB, pure honor, pure manlyness.
FOR SPARTA!

kedde · Dec 16, 2009, 10:03 AM // 10:03

If you want to put in a para, you lose something else for it.
For the builds you're talking about, the things you'll have to sacrifice are better than what you gain by getting some paragon.

If you sac a trapper, you lose both offense and defense at a greater measure than the para can add itself.
Saccing a dagger ranger means you just don't do enough pressure over all.
Saccing the backline isn't really an option unless you're brave/good or just don't want to be serious, and we were already past why the orders are better than a para.

AtomicMew · Dec 16, 2009, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by kedde

If you want to put in a para, you lose something else for it.
For the builds you're talking about, the things you'll have to sacrifice are better than what you gain by getting some paragon.

If you sac a trapper, you lose both offense and defense at a greater measure than the para can add itself.
Saccing a dagger ranger means you just don't do enough pressure over all.
Saccing the backline isn't really an option unless you're brave/good or just don't want to be serious, and we were already past why the orders are better than a para.

That's not the lameway I see people run. Most people take take an N/P, two monks and 5 R/A.

kedde · Dec 16, 2009, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Oh well, that's an oversight, but then I don't play any of those.

Even still, you don't really have anything to sacrifice.
If you drop a ranger, you simply lose a ton of damage in a build that is designed specifically around dealing the most damage possible but with reasonable counters to dying.
if you in such a build drop damage for halfarsed defense that won't output anywhere near the same pressure, then you're just being illogical.

It's like saying that adding a tainter to a spike build would be nice because it does A and B, sure it does, but it just doesn't fit when everything else you already have is better.

I Angra I · Dec 17, 2009, 06:30 AM // 06:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by deluxe

http://i49.tinypic.com/2rcu8w0.jpg
Proven wrong.
No song, no MH, no FB, pure honor, pure manlyness.
FOR SPARTA!

by the look of that score either yellow or red was ganking the other ~__~ winning halls once doesnt prove that you dont need it anyway though

but regardless I commend you on your very honorable build

axe · Dec 17, 2009, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Angra I

by the look of that score either yellow or red was ganking the other ~__~ winning halls once doesnt prove that you dont need it anyway though

but regardless I commend you on your very honorable build

Winning halls isnt really the point.

Consecutive Wins: 10

so 96 fame run FTW.

But seriously those guys are high level, we are talking about low ranked pugs, I imagine sway is still easier to win with for those with no emotes.

I Angra I · Dec 17, 2009, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by axe

Winning halls isnt really the point.

Consecutive Wins: 10

so 96 fame run FTW.

But seriously those guys are high level, we are talking about low ranked pugs, I imagine sway is still easier to win with for those with no emotes.

well if you're on a full fame run, most other maps besides halls don't really need MH/FB nearly as much anyway.. so I guess going back to the original point, I meant that in halls MH is pretty needed specifically for relic runs, but everywhere else in HA it isn't needed as much.

but we're getting off topic so I'll stop ;o

Edwards · Dec 18, 2009, 06:15 AM // 06:15

Why not just stand further back? Your orders are still work unless the mesmer's going to overextend to get you, in which case your team should jump on him and kill him.

Also, unless you're playing somebody actually decent, MH and Song are NOT necessary for winning Halls, which r4+ pugs probably aren't that worried about anyways. I've honestly won relics in halls with like one enraging charge, a primal rage, no vent, and and no gank for us. Relics are pretty much 90% luck, 10% not making either other team angry at you.

Monibu · Dec 23, 2009, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Angra I

make haste and fall back are extremely needed skills in HA

disagree respectfully

Windborne speed can be used in relics (however the obvious counters, but still can be a replacement) and teams without fallback still manage quite well, however i do agree they are ALMOST a must :P