Curse

urania · Dec 22, 2009, 10:09 AM // 10:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrible Surgeon

However if you were any good in HB you MICROd the hero skill bars thus one person was actually filling the role of four people.

I probably had to micro my (especially smiter monk) heroes in pve (because I didn't give them builds they could run decently without microing) on a far bigger scale than anywhere/anything else. Simply because they're just horrid when left completely to themselves...

DreamWind · Dec 22, 2009, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jbrown

FYI, people not being able to play is what will kill pvp faster than anything else you do to it.

Truth brother. I didn't used to believe this, but now I realize it is true.

For example, I know 3-4 people I used to play with back in the day. We had an active guild and played HA/GvG regularly with friends, pugs, whatever we could find. It wasn't too difficult to set up. All of these people (including me) mostly quit due to inbalance and Anet screwing up 1 too many times.

Now many of these people want to come back and play GW again to remember the good old days, but between the dwinding population and heavier schedules, they don't have the time to form groups anymore. Since they can't form groups, they can't play. It is that simple. What is a reasonable answer for these people? It is either allow heroes or don't play. And don't play is the only option currently.

Robster Lobster · Dec 22, 2009, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Imagine if it was made possible to HA with 1 person, and 7 heroes.

Based on your reasoning this would be great for the game, you'd have more teams about, and people would be able to HA when they otherwise wouldn't. However if you can picture this being anything other than an incredibly unpleasant mess then you're deluded.

Lowering barriers for entry is a great way to improve numbers in the various formats, but the solution is to make social networking in game easier, which I think can be done by improving team forming capabilities in the more casual arenas.

DreamWind · Dec 22, 2009, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robster Lobster

Imagine if it was made possible to HA with 1 person, and 7 heroes.

I'm advocating 2 humans and 6 heroes, but ok.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robster Lobster

However if you can picture this being anything other than an incredibly unpleasant mess then you're deluded.

Again, it wouldn't be perfect, but it would be better than not being able to play at all. Please get the message through.

Robster Lobster · Dec 22, 2009, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I'm advocating 2 humans and 6 heroes, but ok.

I guess you missed the point? Explain to me the downsides of 1 human and 7 heroes. Those are going to be the same downsides of 2 humans and 6 heroes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Again, it wouldn't be perfect, but it would be better than not being able to play at all. Please get the message through.

I don't think anyone would say the game is perfect now, or are opposed to changes to improve the game for people in your very common situation. The problem is that pretty much everyone is saying that they don't like your proposed solution, and that there are probably better ones that wouldn't negatively impact the game for them.

DreamWind · Dec 22, 2009, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robster Lobster

I don't think anyone would say the game is perfect now, or are opposed to changes to improve the game for people in your very common situation. The problem is that pretty much everyone is saying that they don't like your proposed solution, and that there are probably better ones that wouldn't negatively impact the game for them.

What are these changes that are going to improve the game for this common situation? I haven't heard any yet that are likely to happen or even possible. If the situation is so common, shouldn't we at least patch it until a real solution arises?

The problem is not that everyone doesn't like my solution. The problem is those who agree with my solution aren't playing anymore or posting here, and those who don't agree are the few remaining playing PvP and aren't offering any better solutions.

So until there is some better (and easier to implement) solution that I haven't heard of, I still think it is the right thing to do. Until that time, the only thing to do is stare at empty districts and friend lists.

Sankt Hallvard · Dec 22, 2009, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

The problem is not that everyone doesn't like my solution. The problem is those who agree with my solution aren't playing anymore or posting here, and those who don't agree are the few remaining playing PvP and aren't offering any better solutions.

I used to be opposed to your idea, but now you've swayed my views.

I still dislike your solution but I've come to realise this is probably quite selfish. There is no denying the population is smaller now than it used to be, I'm willing to accept that the majority may have already quit. I'm not entirely convinced by your claim that this majority will return given the option of more heroes but ok, I'm willing to give it a shot.

Obviously I will not be playing in this new hero era but me and some of the remaining minority leaving will be more than made up by the said majority returning to play. This way the majority will find enjoyment once more and the rest of us can take a temporary break. Say a 6 month break while Anet comes up with a permanent solution we can all live with(not included the usual Anet postponings obviously).

HB can also be temporarily restored during this period to satisfy the dozen rabid HBers. Let's just call it the Age of Heroes.

Robster Lobster · Dec 22, 2009, 08:47 PM // 20:47

A temporary patch is a step backwards, and could cause more people to leave or stop playing than it would bring in. I'd also say it's significantly less likely than another solution, as ANet aren't exactly known for reverting any changes they've made.

As for actual suggestions, there's a thread linked on the first page that discusses options to improve the game for smaller teams and bring in new players. You say the smaller scale formats are boring which is why you want to HA, if a lot of people feel the same way then they should be reworked to the point that smaller teams would rather play in them than play with AI in HA/GvG.

tealspikes · Dec 22, 2009, 11:58 PM // 23:58

My solution for GvG would be to give the player the choice of playing with heroes/henches or not by making a slight change to the matchmaking process. The leader of a team of 8 humans can have the option to avoid all matches against teams with NPC's. Simple as that. These people who dislike heroes now don't have to play against them, and the majority of us who don't give a sh*t can actually get more matches and have heroes available when we need them.

Now someone tell me how that wouldn't make everyone happy?

edt: oh yea to make things fair heroes/henches probably shouldn't be allowed to enter ATs, not that anybody ever does

DreamWind · Dec 23, 2009, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by tealspikes

The leader of a team of 8 humans can have the option to avoid all matches against teams with NPC's. Simple as that. These people who dislike heroes now don't have to play against them, and the majority of us who don't give a sh*t can actually get more matches and have heroes available when we need them.

Now someone tell me how that wouldn't make everyone happy?

edt: oh yea to make things fair heroes/henches probably shouldn't be allowed to enter ATs, not that anybody ever does

This is very very solid to me. I'm in full support and thanks for suggesting it. We should inform Anet.

I guess the only question is how could we do it in HA.

J1000 · Dec 23, 2009, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

RA can be good, but the fun only lasts for so long. I can only go 2-3 runs of RA before I get bored and rage out.

It would be nice to be able to play other forms of PvP with friends. Unfortunately most of those people quit, and the remaining I have aren't enough to form a team anymore. Not to mention, a party formation system wouldn't do nearly as much nowadays due to low population. That is why I like my proposal. Honestly I'd like to hear more arguments AGAINST the proposal because I haven't seen a good one yet.

I agree, RA is not the solution (although I still like it). But the population is not going to get bigger, fact. The goal is to make the game fun in spite of the population. An interface improvement may sound like a gimmick, but it's the key to making unpopulated games tolerable. When I went to Codex Arena I noticed they've added group requests, which is great, but I'd still like to be able to add triggers so that it alerts you when your party minimums are met.

BTW, the elimination of TA was exactly the wrong move for a low-population game. Not only does it eliminate the smaller-group organized battles (which is exactly what a low population needs), it also clutters up RA with power teams that continue to dominate the monkless random groups, power teams that would otherwise have been sent over to TA. So removing TA was a bad idea and I hope they reverse it soon.

Krill · Dec 23, 2009, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Heroes, along with the age of the game are the two main reasons HA is a ghost town. In the early days of heroes you had 3 thumpers with 4 heroes shitting on everyone and it was completely terrible. Then there were various other heroways with taint heroes, smite heroes and finally culminating with the broken tease hero that single-handedly carried teams. The option to not play against hero teams is also idiotic; you're just asking for a segregated format where after a period of time everyone would heroway again and you'd be forced to play them if you ever wanted a match.

Aside from the return of sway builds and the retarded c-space cowboy R/A's HA has actually been a lot better since the removal of heroes. I'm sorry if you can't get a group either because you play during the very dead hours, are lazy or have no rank but you're asking for changes that have been proven to be very bad for the format. Get over it and stop with these plz bring back mah heroes!!!11 threads...

Lourens · Dec 23, 2009, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Just get a nice guild and play with them , heroes suck in pvp.
It is called player vs player for some reason right?

DreamWind · Dec 24, 2009, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krill

Heroes, along with the age of the game are the two main reasons HA is a ghost town.

Of course they were a determining factor. But that isn't the point. The point is they can't to do any worse now and likely have benefits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krill

The option to not play against hero teams is also idiotic; you're just asking for a segregated format where after a period of time everyone would heroway again and you'd be forced to play them if you ever wanted a match.

No, the option is brilliant and the logic you use against it is flawed. How could it possibly affect the people who are happy currently playing against each other? The only way those people would move to the heroway side is if the heroway side is better (which makes my argument even stronger).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krill

I'm sorry if you can't get a group either because you play during the very dead hours, are lazy or have no rank but you're asking for changes that have been proven to be very bad for the format.

You don't have to be sorry...the game is dead. But it goes back to the earlier quote in this thread:

Now that the effects of the above have taken over you remove heroes from a dead game, further promoting the death of it.

Still Number One · Dec 24, 2009, 10:02 AM // 10:02

Honestly A.Net is doing you and everyone in your situation (that includes me) a favor by making it nearly impossible to play GvG or HA anymore. Just by watching a few matches and seeing who has managed to perform well in the last two monthlies is proof enough that this game is officially in the worst state ever and it won't be getting better since the Guild Wars 2 hype will continue to build going into next year.

In my opinion it actually is a better option to not be able to play the game at all rather than making the game even more boring and brainless. Sure by doing your 2 human 6 hero/hench idea you open the door for far more players to play GvG. But you don't exactly make the game more exciting and you'll probably make just as many people decide they are fed up with the game then the people you would gain from that move.

The game is old, boring, outplayed, and dead. There is no possible way to fix PvP in GW 1 because of the fact being that GW 2 is coming out. It doesn't matter what the release date is for GW 2 either, fact is that people know about it and more people are looking forward to getting to play GW 2 than they are getting into GW 1 PvP. If you are like me and can't play GW PvP anymore for whatever reason, your best bet is to just move on and find another way to entertain yourself.

Krill · Dec 24, 2009, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

No, the option is brilliant and the logic you use against it is flawed. How could it possibly affect the people who are happy currently playing against each other? The only way those people would move to the heroway side is if the heroway side is better (which makes my argument even stronger).

During the peak of heroway metas 80%+ teams were heroways; there was a period of well over a month earlier this year where almost every team in HoH was a heroway. If heroes are brought back it will go strait back to that sort of meta because nothing has changed with hero AI and HA players generally take the path of least resistance towards fame. So again, under your proposal players opting out of playing against heroes would get to wait even longer for matches and possibly even be excluded from HoH with additional 12 minute wait times when heroways are holding. Sincere no thank you, you're presenting a false choice.

tealspikes · Dec 24, 2009, 04:44 PM // 16:44

As I said, my proposal is for GvG ladder play and will not work in HA for the reasons I gave earlier in the thread and that HA is setup almost like a tournament, where the winners will eventually have to face the other winners. In HA, your usually trying to get to HoH as quickly as possible, and being able to avoid a portion of your competitors (or have a portion of your competitors avoid you) is unfair in any tournament. Also, tease is still stupidly powerful on heroes.

I wouldn't worry too much about HA because Anet said something about revamping it.

DreamWind · Dec 24, 2009, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

In my opinion it actually is a better option to not be able to play the game at all rather than making the game even more boring and brainless.

Your argument is fair enough. Presently, the ONLY option is to not play though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krill

If heroes are brought back it will go strait back to that sort of meta because nothing has changed with hero AI and HA players generally take the path of least resistance towards fame. So again, under your proposal players opting out of playing against heroes would get to wait even longer for matches and possibly even be excluded from HoH with additional 12 minute wait times when heroways are holding.

You have to ask yourself...why would so many people switch over to the heroway side? The fame argument is bogus, because with heroways running around the path to the most fame would be with a human team. By your own admission, the human team side would have long wait times...JUST LIKE THEY DO NOW. I fail to see how adding a heroway side changes that or does anything but add a game play option.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tealspikes

I wouldn't worry too much about HA because Anet said something about revamping it.

You do know how every revamp in the history of the game has turned out don't you?? (Hint: bad)

Reverend Dr · Dec 24, 2009, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

You do know how every revamp in the history of the game has turned out don't you?? (Hint: bad)

Then lets revamp the game by adding heroes.

Demigod Heracles · Dec 25, 2009, 01:35 AM // 01:35

I wish with all my heart that they'd return heroes to PVP. Nothing was more fun than being 7/8 on a smurf and loading up a koss with 5 knockdowns and target locking him on one of the enemy's warriors.

RIP Kossbacker, you will be missed.