Curse

Ariena Najea · Mar 30, 2010, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

"Build diversity" is what breaks the non-8-man arenas: "We don't have the resources to balance 4v4 so TA/HB need to go and be replaced with a self-balancing arena - Codex"

I disagree with you on this one. What kills the 4v4 areas are mechanics that are easily countered with more players on a team, but cannot be properly handled with a team of 4. The obvious example is knockdown, for which the only answers are defensive stances (which can even be removed), Guardian (can be removed/interrupted), or having 2 healers on your team. In 8v8, such a kd-spike can be covered by the other healers naturally.

Roles need to be even more compacted in the 4v4 Arenas, because you have the same number of things to do, but fewer slots with which to do it. This is why there are fewer effective builds for the 4-man areas, and why build diversity generally doesn't happen. Mind you this doesn't really apply to RA or AB, where almost anything works.

Quote:

Heroes belong in pve. (and not even there)

Absolutely. I will be very disappointed if heroes end up returning to PvP.

Thevil King · Mar 30, 2010, 02:22 AM // 02:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Jonas I

so basically you want hero battles back, only without the build diversity and without the heroes?

no, im only saying that the concept of capping does allow for more possible tactics and movement than simple elimination alone, where all u do is stand in one place and kill stuff. i want hb back, yes, but the reason hb failed in the first place was not build nor heroes, its anet's negligence of pvp formats other than gvg and ha. ofc, we wont get ta/hb back, but that does not mean stuff like this should haven happend or should happen in the future again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

"Build diversity" is what breaks the non-8-man arenas: "We don't have the resources to balance 4v4 so TA/HB need to go and be replaced with a self-balancing arena - Codex"

Heroes belong in pve. (and not even there)

anets intention this whole time is to maintain the "high lvl pvp" formats ha and gvg, meaning their skill updates will mostly address 8v8 play. resources does play a factor as well, but i doubt that non 8 men arenas was ever significant on anet's agenda had they had sufficient resources anyways, as their focus was just not there

heros do have their place in this game.the population is facing a gradual decrease over time, and pugging will just get harder and harder for both pve AND pvp. the idea of putting heros in is to address this problem. whether it is successful or not is subjective. but if heros do not belong here, then u might as well remove henchmen too, because heros are essencially customized hench. now it is debatable whether heros have their place or not in other pvp formats, but the function and use of heros in hb is entirely different, and personally i think hb is a great format that did not deserve to be removed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

I disagree with you on this one. What kills the 4v4 areas are mechanics that are easily countered with more players on a team, but cannot be properly handled with a team of 4. The obvious example is knockdown, for which the only answers are defensive stances (which can even be removed), Guardian (can be removed/interrupted), or having 2 healers on your team. In 8v8, such a kd-spike can be covered by the other healers naturally.

Roles need to be even more compacted in the 4v4 Arenas, because you have the same number of things to do, but fewer slots with which to do it. This is why there are fewer effective builds for the 4-man areas, and why build diversity generally doesn't happen. Mind you this doesn't really apply to RA or AB, where almost anything works...

that is inevitable since the pvp of gw is geared towards 8v8 play. but note that a great amount of meta builds that we see in gvg and ha have their origins in 4v4 arenas such as ta.

Garet1337 · Mar 30, 2010, 02:32 AM // 02:32

you people do realise that if this is turned into a hero battle thread it'll be closed right?

But yeah if heros cant be in PvP neither should henchies, henchies are pve.... but the reason why Hero Battles was PvP and not PvE was cause in order to get anywhere U had to control the Heros, not just let the messed up AI control it, if u did that then it was Hench Battle not hero battle and that is PvE, but when YOU control what ur heros do it is still PvP, but instead of u only controlling urself, u control 3 other players as well which have a basic AI so they can move and attack on their own but still need you to control them

Recap Hench Battles Pve, Hero Battle PvP but it was taken and no how much i and other want it back it wont come back

Now back to costume brawl and the other sesonal arenas please

Amaurosis · Mar 30, 2010, 02:58 AM // 02:58

They should change the old TA outpost into a Festival Game Arena

. Every month or so rotate which festival game is to be played as part of an update. I understand grind is a factor, so to deal with it why not add a weekly cap? If i'm not mistaken you're only allowed 5 gifts of the traveler per week on 1 account. With a limit of let's say 250 per week they'd only allow an increment of 1k gamer pts./month. As for CB I would suggest changing the builds every 1-2 weeks. I doubt anyone would care if Dragon Nest were a part of this and when actual festivals roll around maybe close down the arena? This is just a thought so any constructive criticism wouldn't hurt my feelings

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaurosis

They should change the old TA outpost into a Festival Game Arena

. Every month or so rotate which festival game is to be played as part of an update. I understand grind is a factor, so to deal with it why not add a weekly cap? If i'm not mistaken you're only allowed 5 gifts of the traveler per week on 1 account. With a limit of let's say 250 per week they'd only allow an increment of 1k gamer pts./month. As for CB I would suggest changing the builds every 1-2 weeks. I doubt anyone would care if Dragon Nest were a part of this and when actual festivals roll around maybe close down the arena? This is just a thought so any constructive criticism wouldn't hurt my feelings

Wouldn't players just continue to grind this arena?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaurosis

Wouldn't players just continue to grind this arena?

I would grind it initially for the points then come back later when i'm bored or not busy (criticism such as this is what i'm looking for, idk if posting 3 consec replies is allowed and if not let me apologize in advance)

Ariena Najea · Mar 30, 2010, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garet1337

you people do realise that if this is turned into a hero battle thread it'll be closed right?

You are correct sir.

Quote:

But yeah if heros cant be in PvP neither should henchies, henchies are pve.... but the reason why Hero Battles was PvP and not PvE was cause in order to get anywhere U had to control the Heros, not just let the messed up AI control it, if u did that then it was Hench Battle not hero battle and that is PvE, but when YOU control what ur heros do it is still PvP, but instead of u only controlling urself, u control 3 other players as well which have a basic AI so they can move and attack on their own but still need you to control them

The difference between Heroes and Henchmen in PvP is staggering. The AI uses some skills better than others, and some skills even better than players (ie Jagged Bones). The reason Heroes shouldn't return to PvP is because you can load 8 skills the Hero is good with and can abuse (see Me/Rt Teasers) and other nonsense. Henchmen do not perform as well as skilled players, whereas heroes have that potential with the right skillbar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaurosis

idk if posting 3 consec replies is allowed and if not let me apologize in advance)

It's not. I merged your posts, but in the future please use the Edit button on the top-right to add new content to your posts.

Garet1337 · Mar 30, 2010, 04:09 AM // 04:09

eh idk, i think perma roller beatle racing would be pretty fun

if it always had the ladder, but then yeah i like the idea where the old TA spot would just be the Sesonal arena place where every week it changes between Dragon Arena, roller beatle, costume brawl and stuff

Missing HB · Mar 30, 2010, 07:14 AM // 07:14

That's really good idea since costume brawl is a mix with hero battles and arenas ( what codex was supposed to be .......), and many people would enjoy this ; at least you dont need healers to win, you get points after every win ( not like ra unfortunately ..), this would fix people problem in dead hours , having to wait 30-1hour to form to lose pathetically 20mn after and disband , having wasted their time .

The only reason why people want heroes back is because it is a way to have fun and play much more faster than you can . In additon , maybe some heroes builds are unfair ( tainted , tease , etc..) but how fair is it for example in ha , when you get 1v1 hall holding and you can just slash resign 99% of time ( this situation happens a lot on morning .)

Rotation arenas would be nice too , although it wont come for sure , but people would get tired of dragon arena , while they wouldnt be in costume brawl in my opinion .

Sankt Hallvard · Mar 30, 2010, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

I disagree with you on this one. What kills the 4v4 areas are mechanics that are easily countered with more players on a team, but cannot be properly handled with a team of 4. The obvious example is knockdown, for which the only answers are defensive stances (which can even be removed), Guardian (can be removed/interrupted), or having 2 healers on your team. In 8v8, such a kd-spike can be covered by the other healers naturally.

I would reply to this but then you would delete my post and close the thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaurosis

They should change the old TA outpost into a Festival Game Arena

. Every month or so rotate which festival game is to be played as part of an update. I understand grind is a factor, so to deal with it why not add a weekly cap?

That's an excellent suggestion sir. Weekly rotation, and for CB you could even make a small rotation of the previous years' builds to make it less stale. For instance: CB-year1, DA, Snowball, Rollerbeetle(?), CB-year2, DA, Snowball, Rollerbeetle, CB-year3, etc. Tbh I'm only interested in CB and don't know if there are other festival games that should have been mentioned.

I would very much like to keep the grindgang out of it though so a monthly cap(a very low one) would be a must, preferably no gamer pts all IMO. I would be very sad to see CB go the way of every other format due to grind, lets say by 5 people syncing in effectively deterring new/random players from playing at all.

EDIT: Heck, what about just adding TA and HB to the loop as well? Both without awarding glad pts or commander pts. If nothing else this weekly rotation would be a great way to spot which formats are more popular when the grind-factor is taken away.

Think of the obvious marketing campaigns anet could run: "For a limited time TA and HB are returning to play!" followed by "At the end of every rotation the least popular format will be removed, leaving the most popular format the winner!" reality-tv style.. (This last paragraph is just a joke not to be taken seriously btw)

Thevil King · Mar 30, 2010, 01:11 PM // 13:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

I would reply to this but then you would delete my post and close the thread.

That's an excellent suggestion sir. Weekly rotation, and for CB you could even make a small rotation of the previous years' builds to make it less stale. For instance: CB-year1, DA, Snowball, Rollerbeetle(?), CB-year2, DA, Snowball, Rollerbeetle, CB-year3, etc. Tbh I'm only interested in CB and don't know if there are other festival games that should have been mentioned.

I would very much like to keep the grindgang out of it though so a monthly cap(a very low one) would be a must, preferably no gamer pts all IMO. I would be very sad to see CB go the way of every other format due to grind, lets say by 5 people syncing in effectively deterring new/random players from playing at all.

EDIT: Heck, what about just adding TA and HB to the loop as well? Both without awarding glad pts or commander pts. If nothing else this weekly rotation would be a great way to spot which formats are more popular when the grind-factor is taken away.

Think of the obvious marketing campaigns anet could run: "For a limited time TA and HB are returning to play!" followed by "At the end of every rotation the least popular format will be removed, leaving the most popular format the winner!" reality-tv style.. (This last paragraph is just a joke not to be taken seriously btw)

at this point of the game, titles/rewards r pretty much what keeps almost every1 going. if there is no title pts awarded, then the only way it will attract any significant number of players will be offering a large enough amount of rewards(zq/balth), which is just as bad, if not worse than, as titles. i do not disagree that these formats are fun, but it is just impractical to expect that players will play them without any incentive. on anets view, the player base is just not large enough anymore to justify any new implements at all, and its true.

Garet1337 · Mar 30, 2010, 09:45 PM // 21:45

opps just think i should rephrase an earlier post when i was talking about removing heros from PvP, i really meant to say HB cause taking heros out of GvG and HA i think was a wounderful idea, no more hero way, no more RoJ ogden with a BB sin (even though it's nerfed) or hammer war, fairer games etc but it was kinda late to do that but the rest of my post is good

I still love that festival arena idea cause in my opionion it's going to help with the grind, cause like 1 week u'll be doing costume arena but the week after u'll be doing something else enteirly, and it'll be over a month before the first fesitval game is back, and what else could happen is if this actually happened anet could make a max gammer point consec win thing, like you can only earn at max 30 gamer points per game or something, but u'll still need your consec wins to get it, and or lower the balth faction u get for each game, and this will be fun enough to not have a zquest cause i dont want to turn this into some massive farming thing that'll create more problems then solve

Amaurosis · Mar 30, 2010, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garet1337

this will be fun enough to not have a zquest cause i dont want to turn this into some massive farming thing that'll create more problems then solve

I don't think a Z-quest should be a part of this, though I doubt it would make a difference. In order to farm the zquest you would actually have to be experienced and competent when it comes to the festival games, or you'd just be wasting your time.

Thevil King · Mar 31, 2010, 02:46 AM // 02:46

that is where the problem is at. you clearly do not want any title grinding or zqing here because that will only turn this into a farm. but on the other hand, if there are no title/rewards, then you will need something else to attract enough players to justify the implement of such arenas, which is frankly, pretty much impossible at this stage of the game. the pvp community is the minority of the player base, and if there are no titles/rewards involved, there simply will not be enough players that will play the arena to make it active, at which point u will just end up with another dead outpost like zaishen missions.
so if any such arenas are to be implemented, the choices will be:
1. include title and/or
2. include massive amounts of rewards(zq or watever) or
3. no such arenas will be implemented

Sankt Hallvard · Mar 31, 2010, 06:30 AM // 06:30

You don't think it would be enough to award a small amount of gamer pts through a cap? Say 50 pts per week or so, enough to attract players in the first place and maybe some will choose to stay after their cap is reached just for the fun value? A little bit like farming zaishen elite for the daily 2k(or whatever it is), only that you stay for CB because they find out it's actually fun(unlike zelite).

Anyways, going to my cabin with no interwebz. You guys have a happy Easter.

Thevil King · Mar 31, 2010, 04:43 PM // 16:43

well, the thing is, if event games like cb is to be made available all the time, it has to be very good reasons for people to be there and play it. making it fun is good, but the majority of the players would probably rather do something else that is more rewarding in practical terms, ie titles and $$. my guess is that a small amount and/or a cap of rewards would not be sufficient, and a fun arena alone is not enough to do the job either. that is evident from past events

for example, in last yrs cb event there were 2-3 dists in the first few days, but by the last few days of the week its available, you pretty much play the same people every game, and these people are all farmers. same with snowball and dball, the activity peaks in the first day or 2, then decline sharply in the next few days, until at the end of the event, its all bots, farmers, and syncers. thus if event games are to be made available all yr round, teh only way it can maintain a steady amount of activity is to either include a large enough amount of rewards or title pts, or by making the arena actually competitive with ladder play or the like. but its implausible that any of this is going to happen, and anet would even care about something like this at all(as if they cared in the first place)