Curse

TheSavageRabbit · Sep 22, 2010, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Hey guys,

Just wondering why and when do you use zeal/furious axe/sword when playing hammer in pvp.

I have some idea just need to clarify - mainly for bulls / faster adren gain im guessing.

*lemming* · Sep 22, 2010, 11:24 PM // 23:24

It makes hitting bulls far easier, especially when the target is expecting it.

I Jonas I · Sep 22, 2010, 11:30 PM // 23:30

the activation time for a hammer attack without an IAS is like .8 seconds while the activation time for axes and swords is around .5 or .4 seconds. you do the math

TheSavageRabbit · Sep 23, 2010, 12:34 AM // 00:34

So does that mean I should always use axe for bulls and then quickly change back to hammer? I'm wondering in what instances you should use axe for bulls

*lemming* · Sep 23, 2010, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSavageRabbit

So does that mean I should always use axe for bulls and then quickly change back to hammer? I'm wondering in what instances you should use axe for bulls

Honestly, the only really good spot to use it is if you're trying to save something for time.

Luminarus · Sep 23, 2010, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Theres for bullstrike obviously, quicker triggering of daze (and rebuilding adrenaline) after using overbearing smash (but id rather hit em harder with the hammer), or to take advantage of some of their knock down related skills. Steelfang gives you approx 4 adrenaline with a decent investment, but then you have difficulty knocklocking with Bash.

To be honest? I dont bother.

Masmar · Sep 23, 2010, 05:59 AM // 05:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminarus

To be honest? I dont bother.

Wont find many that do tbh

diabiosx · Sep 24, 2010, 02:48 PM // 14:48

I honestly think its retarded to use sword to build adrenaline. You become predictable as to when you going to KD. you lose a shit ton of damage, since hammers hit really hard.

If you have weakness on you, just use a spear to build adrenaline, you dont have to worry about kiting. If u are also in flail mode/snared and cant hit anyone because they kiting, use spear not axe/sword.

I see plenty of hammer warriors that just use sword because they say it charges adrenaline faster because they think all warriors do is KD combo like BBswayers. They fail to realise that they are sacraficing like 200-300damage for 1extra strike of adrenaline gained

I would agree that the only time worth using a different weapon for bulls is for time kills(since a hammer bulls hit for 100ish).

Reverend Dr · Sep 24, 2010, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by diabiosx

You become predictable as to when you going to KD. you lose a shit ton of damage, since hammers hit really hard. If you have weakness on you, just use a spear to build adrenaline, you dont have to worry about kiting.

Oh yeah swapping from spear to hammer is way less predictable than swapping from sword to hammer!

Spear if you need one more adrenaline, maybe if you need two, but any more than that and you have given up too much positioning and will be giving away your KD's way more than swapping from sword to hammer.

That being said if you are using anything other than your main weapon to build adrenaline then you are grossly hurting your overall pressure and can't position yourself properly.

kalzu · Sep 26, 2010, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Griffon's Sweep : {D

Corporeal Ghost · Oct 01, 2010, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

That being said if you are using anything other than your main weapon to build adrenaline then you are grossly hurting your overall pressure and can't position yourself properly.

As much as I agree with this (and pretty much your entire post), it's actually pretty irrelevant at this point in the game. Players and builds have evolved to the point where pressure is pretty difficult to pull off even if it is your primary goal. Especially between evenly matched mid-low ranked teams (IE, the people that might get use out of forum advice), there is just no downward trend in either party health or monk energy in a lot of matches, and this makes non-spike damage pretty much irrelevant. Obviously bad weaponing is not helping this trend, but it's going to take a lot more than good warrior positioning and autoattacks to fix it.

As for using axes on a hammer bar; it's pretty rare if it's a dedicated hammer bar. I keep a +energy axe set for Bull's (or DCharge or whatever) if I'm bottomed on hammer. I could see times where you'd want to Zealous, but I don't think they're going to come up very often (read: at all) if you're not running either a weird build or an equally weird macro style.

superraptors · Oct 01, 2010, 06:29 AM // 06:29

you would only ever use bulls on a axe or sword to disable a person for the few seconds at key moments

e.g halls last relic cap on opponent [probably aos'd anyways]
gvg kd there flagger for boost

otherwise just use it to execute a fast deep wound or start your chain kd

Reverend Dr · Oct 01, 2010, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

good warrior positioning

Good positioning is the basis of playing warrior. Yes it lets you get more pressure in. It also makes your spikes less predictable and less time to react. Positioning is still extremely important.

I'm still not convinced good pressure isn't worth trying for. Unfortunately the rest of GW community is stuck in 3-2-1 everyone push buttons and there have been way too many warrior builds where the warrior was nothing more than a deep wound on wheels.

Corporeal Ghost · Oct 04, 2010, 04:07 AM // 04:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Good positioning is the basis of playing warrior. Yes it lets you get more pressure in. It also makes your spikes less predictable and less time to react. Positioning is still extremely important.

Yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

I'm still not convinced good pressure isn't worth trying for. Unfortunately the rest of GW community is stuck in 3-2-1 everyone push buttons and there have been way too many warrior builds where the warrior was nothing more than a deep wound on wheels.

Physical pressure has the deck pretty well stacked against it. It's probably still viable if you can get 6+ people on a team that understand how to run a pressure build (the entire 8-man build, not just their bars). There just isn't room to hide your bad players, or even your decent players who just don't understand the match dynamic because it hasn't been an issue for three years. For example, how many modern monks do you think would have the combination or foresight and cajones to empty the tank on draws and veils and suicide to turn a strong push into a full (opposing) wipe?

Reverend Dr · Oct 04, 2010, 04:36 AM // 04:36

Good physical pressure still throws wrenches into monks minds and can make real spikes go through a lot easier. Forcing a couple of big prots or big heals can still make monks not have the energy or recharges available for when actual spikes happen.

Monking against a spike team is relatively easy. Monking against a pressure team is easy. Monking against a spike team that can pressure fairly well is difficult and very draining.

But yeah pure pressure (especially physical pressure) just isn't a viable option. It only works if the opposing team is bad enough to not know how to fall back or split. I still don't see it as a reason to not to pressure as a warrior.

Corporeal Ghost · Oct 04, 2010, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Good physical pressure still throws wrenches into monks minds and can make real spikes go through a lot easier. Forcing a couple of big prots or big heals can still make monks not have the energy or recharges available for when actual spikes happen.

No one has big prots anymore, and the big heals of choice are all five energy. With the exception of Shielding Hands and Aura of Stability, I think the recharges are all low enough not to be heavily exploitable. It's obviously money if you can get the Infuse guy to just start shooting his wad every time you look at someone funny, though. The eventual point I will make, though, is that good physical pressure only starts with the warriors. You can staple Chiizu or Smgzor or whomever you want to most modern midlines, and you're just not going to get kills outside of spikes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Monking against a spike team is relatively easy. Monking against a pressure team is easy. Monking against a spike team that can pressure fairly well is difficult and very draining.

I've never been the greatest of monks, but I always found well-played pressure the hardest to play against. There's definitely a high point somewhere in the middle as you rarely lose people to raw DPS or degen, but it wasn't uncommon to see people dropping from unassisted Eviscerate into autoattack in the past.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Monking against a spike team that can pressure fairly well is difficult and very draining.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

But yeah pure pressure (especially physical pressure) just isn't a viable option. It only works if the opposing team is bad enough to not know how to fall back or split. I still don't see it as a reason to not to pressure as a warrior.

Emphasis mine. There is actually no reason to be pressuring as a warrior unless at least half of your team has the same mindset (or you happen to know their backline/defensive midline is utterly miserable). It's just wasted effort. A lot of the pressure fundamentals come to me pretty naturally at this point, but it still takes a non-insignificant part of my mental power to set up, for example, a DChop on a specific skill, and that detracts from the parts of my play that my team will support.

I think physical pressure is actually still viable if you can assemble 8 people who understand the dynamic, have the ability to execute, and have the balls to run the build in a hostile metagame. I don't think it's actually that much harder to play well than a lot of other playstyles, but it's much harder to play at a low level, so very few people have the patience to grind through that learning curve. And the necessary skillsets, particularly on mid- and backlines (but definitely not to the exclusion of frontlines) have not even been on the radar for two or three years. When you look at actually putting a squad like this together, it's pretty daunting.

*lemming* · Oct 04, 2010, 11:42 PM // 23:42

What kind of build do you guys classify three melee as, if not physical pressure?

Jeydra · Oct 05, 2010, 01:20 AM // 01:20

I've seen someone do this and I thought it was stupid. At that rate you might as well use Daggers to trigger Bull's. Using the Hammer does more damage and is simply more pressure. If you're seeking to build adrenaline, spears do it better ... and if you continuously build adrenaline -> spike -> build more adrenaline without dealing damage in between, you might as well play an Assassin and run around in between spikes.

Quote:

Oh yeah swapping from spear to hammer is way less predictable than swapping from sword to hammer!

If you're using a sword you're already in melee range, and if your opponent sees you're dealing 3 damage a hit he knows you're looking for Bull's. Since you deal no damage, he can just stand still. There's almost no advantage to using the sword, unless like lemming said you need to keep someone still for time.

Reverend Dr · Oct 05, 2010, 07:03 PM // 19:03

That was in regards to:

Quote:

You become predictable as to when you going to KD. you lose a shit ton of damage, since hammers hit really hard. If you have weakness on you, just use a spear to build adrenaline, you dont have to worry about kiting.

Its about adrenaline unloading not specifically bull's.

However: Esc -> weapon swap -> bull's -> esc -> weapon swap -> space/skill. The point is not to swap to a sword/axe and start fishing for a bull's, but to swap right when you need it. Yes you lose a lot of damage from that bull's and you shouldn't be doing it often, but there are times that someone is out of place and the KD is far more important than the damage behind the attacks. This also very rarely if ever comes up.

Also daggers attack at the same speed as sword/axe. While they can doublestrike (if for some reason your warrior has put points into daggers), this won't affect bull's.

Corporeal Ghost · Oct 06, 2010, 04:42 AM // 04:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

What kind of build do you guys classify three melee as, if not physical pressure?

From what I've seen on obsmode, it's generally played as a 24 minute stalemate transitioning into 4 minutes of mashing the lord with three melee guys.

I suppose you could classify the build as capable of, or even intended for, pressure, but the vast majority of people (that I have seen) do not run it that way.

I'd classify a pressure build as one that wins primarily by wiping the opposition.