Curse

Ensign · Jun 24, 2009, 07:05 AM // 07:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

In a mini-game like AB there is a positive feedback where the weaker side gets progressively weaker when the most skilled portion of the weaker side recognizes that any prospective rewards are not worth their time and go elsewhere.

There's actually a much stronger feedback loop that comes from the map progression. Essentially, the biases of the maps affect the populations of bad players more than competent players; Ancestral Lands, for example, clears out the majority of the really casual players on the Luxon side, while the bathtub shitters come out in force on the Kurzick side. The Kurzick side being weaker is putting it on Kurzick-favored maps more often, which causes the bottom of the proverbial barrel to fester and multiply.

I have to say that it is a whole lot more fun trying to overcome the natural disadvantage of the map than it is to overcome the difference between the other team's Monks having Word of Healing while your team's Monks have daggers. Ancestral Lands is essentially unplayable on the Kurzick side, unless you like waiting 15 minutes to find out that people really haven't learned anything in the last 4 years.

Jeydra · Jun 24, 2009, 07:48 AM // 07:48

While I agree that Ancestral means only the good Luxon AB'ers play, I disagree that it's unplayable on the Kurzick side ... with a PuG team I'm confident I can win at least 70% and probably more, while with a coordinated team I'm positive I can make 90%. Although there are good Luxon players, the map is still very much against them and sometimes they make elementary mistakes and pay the price. The real reason why Ancestral is unplayable on the Kurzick side is that it takes way too long to get a game, which is partly because there're so few Luxons compared to Kurzicks. I would've thought more guilds would go Luxon because of this, and yet nothing's happened, so ...

Anyway another reason why Kurzicks might lose so much is that Luxons, being fewer, can sync teams into the same match better. I don't know how much of this happens; I don't specialize in AB the way some people do. But a friend of mine tells me that Luxons sync a lot and she'd just played in a match where all three Luxon teams moved as one (think: all run to res shrine at the same time). If this happens then yeah it's hard to imagine Kurzicks winning.

YunSooJin · Jun 24, 2009, 08:04 AM // 08:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

There's actually a much stronger feedback loop that comes from the map progression. Essentially, the biases of the maps affect the populations of bad players more than competent players; Ancestral Lands, for example, clears out the majority of the really casual players on the Luxon side, while the bathtub shitters come out in force on the Kurzick side. The Kurzick side being weaker is putting it on Kurzick-favored maps more often, which causes the bottom of the proverbial barrel to fester and multiply.

I have to say that it is a whole lot more fun trying to overcome the natural disadvantage of the map than it is to overcome the difference between the other team's Monks having Word of Healing while your team's Monks have daggers. Ancestral Lands is essentially unplayable on the Kurzick side, unless you like waiting 15 minutes to find out that people really haven't learned anything in the last 4 years.

We killed you a couple weeks ago in AB~!!!!!!
This is my crowning achievement since you'd wipe the floor with me in any GvG, nevermind that I was never in a guild good enough to face you.

BUT WE GOT YOU GOOD.

We dropped everything to nuke the living shit out of you! Your distortion did not save you Ensign!

Hahahaahaha .. oh god.

glacialphoenix · Jun 24, 2009, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Quote:

Ancestral Lands is essentially unplayable on the Kurzick side, unless you like waiting 15 minutes to find out that people really haven't learned anything in the last 4 years.

I prefer Grenz to Ancestral, myself. I spend 15 minutes waiting for a match to start, and spend the match muttering imprecations while healing for Ancestral.

Quote:

Anyway another reason why Kurzicks might lose so much is that Luxons, being fewer, can sync teams into the same match better. I don't know how much of this happens; I don't specialize in AB the way some people do. But a friend of mine tells me that Luxons sync a lot and she'd just played in a match where all three Luxon teams moved as one (think: all run to res shrine at the same time). If this happens then yeah it's hard to imagine Kurzicks winning.

The way I see it, you don't even need to sync all three teams. One good guild team can turn the tables pretty effectively. They don't even need to be a guild team, really. And a good team on the Luxon side is more likely to see play than a good team on the Kurzick side, simply by virtue of the sheer number of Kurzick players. That, and the fact that it's in Grenz or Ancestral makes the worst of the players think they can get away with it.

bungusmaximus · Jun 24, 2009, 10:51 AM // 10:51

Bah, who syncs AB, not a chance of course. But some people have team chat on and discuss strategy with other teams (provided ofc they listen). When someone yells: 'collapse on res it's free!' then I'd be stupid not to help out.

When I am forced to solo-cap and I yell in team chat: 'I'm capping necro alone and I need help!' there's always 1 or 2 people coming to help out.

Wish Swiftdeath · Jun 24, 2009, 11:00 AM // 11:00

Tbh this thread and AB itself is very much just for kicks. I don't understand where all the seriousness comes in.

The most entertaining thing about AB is interacting with the people that take it seriously.

bungusmaximus · Jun 24, 2009, 12:24 PM // 12:24

I also play in a band for kicks, I don't get kicks from off-tune notes and people that hold their guitars upside down. I don't mind however when people run goofy bars and whatnot, as long as they play the AB game as it's meant to be played.

Bah AB is one of the best pvp modes in GW in THEORY, it's just kinda meh that it's random.

YunSooJin · Jun 24, 2009, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

I also play in a band for kicks, I don't get kicks from off-tune notes and people that hold their guitars upside down. I don't mind however when people run goofy bars and whatnot, as long as they play the AB game as it's meant to be played.

Bah AB is one of the best pvp modes in GW in THEORY, it's just kinda meh that it's random.

I was thinking that if ANET gave a shit they could put up some team templates for AB.

For example:
Warrior
Elementalist
Elementalist
Monk

The bars would have 5-7 skills preset, while the remaining skills are up to the player. The UI would be as such so that players were forced to fit into specific roles inside of a group. We could have multiple templates with different combinations of professions.

AB could be a good way to guiding players towards more effective builds. Maybe teaching them a thing or two as well? Instead of the unfettered mediocrity that passes for AB teams these days.

Bobby2 · Jun 24, 2009, 05:01 PM // 17:01

If ANet gave a shit they wouldn't have made Lux/Kurz titles into PvE titles in the first place. AB is casual, entry-level PvP, players that excel stay for the lols or move on to higher-end PvP out of curiosity/frustration.

If you gonna stay and play dodgeball in kindergarten, you gotta expect some fat kids on your team. It's a shame Kurzicks tend a bit more towards obesity.

Shadowhaze · Jun 24, 2009, 06:05 PM // 18:05

lol. Wow.

For starters, I don't cheer for either side. I'm only on a side because I have to be, but even then I'll switch if I feel like doing something on the other or working on the crazily big faction title.

I've played on both sides. I've had good and bad teams on both sides. Some people just do it to mess around, kill stuff, etc. and not bother with the point of it...capping. It just depends on the map and what time of day.

ChocoboLIVE · Jun 24, 2009, 07:16 PM // 19:16

When Kurzick losing 2 match streak and more. I am starting screaming. Either gone win or FAIL. Manage to comeback and win. Yay. ^_^V

Ensign · Jun 25, 2009, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

While I agree that Ancestral means only the good Luxon AB'ers play, I disagree that it's unplayable on the Kurzick side ... with a PuG team I'm confident I can win at least 70% and probably more, while with a coordinated team I'm positive I can make 90%.

Anything less than a 200 point blowout is unacceptable and I won't keep playing if I actually lose on that map as Kurzick. It's so ridiculously lopsided that I really can't stand teams that suck hard enough to lose there.

I've been guesting to the Luxon side when it's been on that map the last couple weeks. I have not yet lost while doing so.

Jeydra · Jun 25, 2009, 07:54 AM // 07:54

You win all your games on Ancestral from the Luxon side!? How!? I never really counted but if I make 50% win rate at Kaanai from Kurzick side I'd be pretty damn happy indeed.

bungusmaximus · Jun 25, 2009, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Keep the bridge with the res shrines, and don't gank the fort right away, only when everything else is capped. When ou can keep that up you have an OK chance.

People start mobbing on that map right away so meh, when you can avoid the big group there's quite a lot you can do.

That and nuke the NPC's on the wall even if you don't necessarily have to go in.

Agreed that it's an unfun map though, it's too small.

the_jos · Jun 25, 2009, 08:20 AM // 08:20

When I look at Luxon teams forming at Ancestral Lands I'm not sure about the win/loss ratio. I see many unbalanced teams forming.
When looking at my own experience, with random groups I'm at roughly 50/50.
With guild team win/loss rises somewhat.

Coordination matters a lot. When playing with guild team we tell our team tactics in team chat in the ~50 secs before start and during the match let other teams know where we go and what needs attention.
When other teams are paying attention they know where we are, even off-radar so they don't have to be there. And they know what's going on past their visible range.
This is easy to do and makes playing a lot easier, specially when other teams do the same.

Bobby2 · Jun 25, 2009, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You win all your games on Ancestral from the Luxon side!? How!? I never really counted but if I make 50% win rate at Kaanai from Kurzick side I'd be pretty damn happy indeed.

Because Kurzicks either:

- suicide against base invaders
- blatantly ignore Equipment shrines
- move in groups of 11+

sometimes it's a combination of the three

Nadia Roark · Jun 25, 2009, 05:58 PM // 17:58

I actually haven't seen that much mobbing lately; it seems to me like "Lemming Syndrome" is the bane of the Kurzicks; the team will wipe and then file out the base one by one to get eaten up by the mob standing just outside.

In fairness, there isn't really a good way to handle this; I'm not sure I've ever seen either team come back after the opposition set up a camp just outside the gates. The teleporters don't really put you far enough away from the mob to be of much help, and even if you do escape the mob's notice chances are pretty good you won't have anyone else with you, so capping is unlikely at best. Waiting for the entire team to rez is an option I guess, but that's just not going to happen in any AB unless like all 12 players are in the same guild or something.

Ensign · Jun 27, 2009, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You win all your games on Ancestral from the Luxon side!? How!? I never really counted but if I make 50% win rate at Kaanai from Kurzick side I'd be pretty damn happy indeed.

In fairness the sample size isn't too large (probably around 12-15 games).

I'm only playing on the Luxon side with a team full of people I know; and generally when I have a full team I only end up losing when the other two groups on my team present 0 threat. The percentage of 0 threat Luxon teams on Ancestral Lands is very low. So it really is being set up to win.

Again, you cannot understate how many truly atrocious players come out to play on those fortress maps. The shrine NPCs are significantly more dangerous than most of the Kurzick players on Ancestral Lands.

You win by pushing into the base and chain-killing Kurzicks as they res while your other teams cap the outside shrines. In general if you can sit in their base you win; if they hold those shrines tight you lose by 200-250. So bring someone who knows how to play Monk, put stances on everyone and sit in the base.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

I actually haven't seen that much mobbing lately; it seems to me like "Lemming Syndrome" is the bane of the Kurzicks; the team will wipe and then file out the base one by one to get eaten up by the mob standing just outside.

I hope it's been on Etnaran/Grenz a lot then. Teams have this awful habit of running around like idiots and dying on Saltspray when that map is all about having your mob beat up their mob; I don't think I've ever lost on that map when I've been able to convince my teammates to mob there. It works as long as the idiots who scream to cap in team chat aren't there tanking the match by trying to ninja a Ritualist shrine for 3 points.

But it's a general problem that once a team starts to fall behind they almost always go into some sort of sneaky shrine capping mode where they refuse to fight and just want to run around the edges and scavenge a few weakly defended points. This just buries teams quicker of course. I think it's really important to just beat the piss out of a team in the first couple minutes to establish the tone, because once they're running around and refusing to fight the game is over.

_Nihilist_ · Jun 28, 2009, 10:54 AM // 10:54

I've been aligned Kurzick since the release of Factions (well, since the Guild I was in at that time went Kurzick, to be specific), but I've guested Luxon-side quite a few times as well.

I've seen both good and bad players for each Faction, I've seen bad teams pull off amazing upsets, and I've seen good teams get steamrolled because of stupid mistakes. Shit happens.

I don't PUG AB. It's pointless. Sure, it's random who the other 4-person teams will be, but if I have control over the 4 people on my team, I'm going to use that to the best advantage possible; an organized group has better communication and better synergy. If not, you're doing it wrong, it doesn't matter whether you are on the Kurzick or Luxon side.

angelsarc · Jun 30, 2009, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

We killed you a couple weeks ago in AB~!!!!!!
This is my crowning achievement since you'd wipe the floor with me in any GvG, nevermind that I was never in a guild good enough to face you.

BUT WE GOT YOU GOOD.

We dropped everything to nuke the living shit out of you! Your distortion did not save you Ensign!

Hahahaahaha .. oh god.

Hm, kill Ensign or try to win the game. The choice is obvious. I think that was on Grenz, which I don't find particularly advantageous for Kurzicks. I prefer it over Saltspray when playing from the Luxon side. I can't even remember the last time I played on Etnaran, but it's more or less a mirror-image of Grenz with the NPCs flipped which makes a small, but noticeable difference if you have no monk in an all capper team (not optimal). Elementalist -> Necromancer is easier than Elementalist -> Mesmer; the Warrior shrine is a joke either way.