Curse

tealspikes · Feb 10, 2011, 07:15 PM // 19:15

This combo gives a way too much energy to necromancers in addition to the spammable bleeding. Before you needed to sacrifice your elite skill for that kind of energy management (OoB, cultist's). Masochism is great on a blood bar but iffy on anything else (perhaps this skill needs its own topic). To compare similar non-elite energy management:

*glyph lesser: about 15e/30s seconds
*ether phant+drain delusions: about 15e/30s + some edenial
*barbed+angodoron's: about 25e/30s + bleeding spam

Suggestions:

-Replace self-inflicted bleeding with small life-sac (masochism would need to be looked at)

-Lower the energy gain from angodoron's

FoxBat · Feb 10, 2011, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by tealspikes

This combo gives a way too much energy to necromancers in addition to the spammable bleeding. Before you needed to sacrifice your elite skill for that kind of energy management (OoB, cultist's). Masochism is great on a blood bar but iffy on anything else (perhaps this skill needs its own topic).

Were you running barbed + angorodon's on something other than a blood nec?

The only time blood necs weren't relying on masochism is when mesmers could fastcast everything else on the bar and needed OoB to emanage.

*lemming* · Feb 10, 2011, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Blood necros ran OoB for quite a while before the Masochism full blood version caught on.

tealspikes · Feb 10, 2011, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Were you running barbed + angorodon's on something other than a blood nec?

Yes, the main problem is curses and death necs, and I think its a problem with blood necs as well...we've just been so used to blood already having infinite energy with masochism. Before, you needed to use up you're elite slot for great energy management. Now we're seeing powerful elites like LC and SB that can be easily spammed on recharge along with the rest of their bars.

kedde · Feb 11, 2011, 12:38 PM // 12:38

Several years ago in the "euro hexways" or whatever people wanted to call them, people ran curses with OoB. It's certainly not a new concept.

On the actual topic, I agree. Blood necros are still retarded and add nothing interesting to the game as well as requiring no brains or mechanics to execute on a requried level.

Way2dead · Feb 11, 2011, 04:28 PM // 16:28

not really agreed ofc you can spam it, but it still requires to have an condition for the energy, yes i know barbed will give, but still. E-denial is also very powerful. Drain+ ether is almost the same energy, you calculations are wrong imo in 30 secs Ether+ drain will give you at least 40 energy with 14 ilu (if you are exactly some more, but able to cast 2 times) and around 44-45 with angorodon. Also said it's only used on an blood necro only. Gole is just 1 skill, not 2 wich makes quite much difference, and has no requirement. But that's just my opinion.

tealspikes · Feb 11, 2011, 06:03 PM // 18:03

My numbers were the net energy gain since that's what matters here.
Necro's can't put 14 pts into ether+ drain, at least not to my knowledge. Inspiration does not give a strong passive benefit like soul reaping does.
Yes barbed+gaze is two skill slots, but barbed signet lets you to spam bleeding even with a modest investment. It carries it's own weight in the bar (that uses necro skills) as well as combo'ing with angodoron's.

I Angra I · Feb 21, 2011, 11:54 AM // 11:54

most necro bars rarely have 13 soul reaping, it's usually 9 or 10 if you're speccing into anything else at all (which you really should be in most cases). that's 18e/30s, not 25e. also masochism with the old health saccing barbed sig was way better emanagement than angorodon's.

so yes it gives a bit more energy than the few skills you gave examples of (you neglected power drain which gives 21.5e/30s at only 10 insp) but it's not ridiculously overpowered or anything.

kedde · Feb 21, 2011, 03:05 PM // 15:05

PDrain on the other hand has a conditional you can't control, but also need to actually pull off since if you don't you're RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed for half a minute.

Angorodon's is too good when you weigh in other factors than energy gain on its own.
Requiring no secondary class like GoLE or the Ether combo, which also requires 2 skillslots.

Basically if you had the necro limited to on of 2 secondary classes if they wanted to sustain energy management with the tabhex spam bars that has been meta for some time now, they wouldn't have been nearly as problematic since the whole issue was the gigantic versatility in being both highly splittable both offensively and defensively while also being viable in stand fights.

Krill · Feb 21, 2011, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Necros do need some form of primary e-management besides SR which isn't really a factor outside of HA. The new angorodon + barbed sig is less energy than the previous build with masochism + barbed sig and dark pact. Compared to the mes and ele e-management skills it seems reasonable. SoLS is another decent skill, but somewhat unreliable and you might be close to getting SR energy when it hits anyway.

When you have to spec secondary e-management skills it removes the possibility of taking a defensive skill or a hard res which factors into whether you'd want to use a necro at all in a build.

kedde · Feb 21, 2011, 06:32 PM // 18:32

The thing to consider is whether necro's being viable in the current form is supposedly "healthy" for the game. Going by the traditional consensus of skillful and entertaining play, then no.

Having to be forced to spec a secondary for energy management would lock necro's back into their old role as being part of heavy hexpressure, and to be frank I don't see how that's bad in any way.

tealspikes · Feb 21, 2011, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Ok the main concern I made this thread for was Curses and Death necros, and potentially abusable 2ndry professions. Blood necros might be OP or they might not be, but that's a different topic since the tweaks to barbed+angorodons barely changed anything with them.

Rob Roy The Divine · Feb 24, 2011, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by tealspikes

To compare similar non-elite energy management:

*glyph lesser: about 15e/30s seconds

should this not be 20e/30s as you save 10 energy per cast? with 0 spec'd into e-storage

Killed u man · Feb 24, 2011, 01:28 PM // 13:28

You always have to substract the casting cost. Hence 20E - 5E = 15E...

Rob Roy The Divine · Feb 24, 2011, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

You always have to substract the casting cost. Hence 20E - 5E = 15E...

well on that note, your standard Blood necro running crip anguish would run 8+1 soul reaping, meaning 11 energy back if conditioned, -5 energy for cast = 6 energy ever 10 seconds

so that means by my calculations you get 18e/30s... that don't sound imba to me

Killed u man · Feb 24, 2011, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Well, I never made those claims in the first place, I just pointed out the flaw in thinking, is all.

I don't think barbed sig = angorodons is all that overpowered in today's meta. Healing power is redicilously strong, therefore killing power must also be.

This doesn't mean the skill/reward ratio isn't RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed up, it just means that the reward balance for blood bars is pretty well balanced. They need to rework some of the bloodskills to more conditional.

*lemming* · Feb 24, 2011, 10:31 PM // 22:31

*ridiculously