Curse

Oo Dany Oo · Mar 04, 2011, 10:22 AM // 10:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by placetoguru

wow, really everyone think this derv crap has destroyed HA even more
its really not that hard to beat them, and if everyone is running it then we smart and use it to your advantage. aka BUILD WARS THEM run some hexes and blind and its gg, also cuz its 5-6 melee they tend to ball nicely as well. now i am the original poster and from reading this forum i think we can all come to the conclusion that HA is not balanced. but that doesn't mean we should all give up based on what everyone is running. the derv update is a big step forward to guild wars in general with the introduction to flash enchantments. ofc after any update some skills might need some tweaking, but with that said big skill and class changes make a big difference to what people run in places like HA and GVG.

so all in all i think its important that the guild wars community embrace these kinds of updates and support A-Nets work, so in the future they might actually want to keep mixing the game up. I strongly believe that we need more of these updates for every class although keeping in mind of gerneral team tactics and game types eg. dont RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO up common snares/hast bars or standard monk bars, although alternatives are good.

nice joke.
really...nice joke!

What I think about your post is: You are not a PvP player.
In those days people must play grenthway to farm point in HA. Only high ranked guild like KvZ, PuuN, UhU, Acalon This Way can defeat grenthway team with their standard team (balanced, fragspike, invokespike, riftspike).

Other player r8/9+ have to play grnthway if they want to farm point like the period before the update. Look at my guild:
We play fragspike and before this update we farmed 25/30 fame in 1.5 hours and we won a lot of HoH. The guild is r6+. We won against r8/9+ team(balanced, bbway, invoke, etc) or lower and Fragspike is not a lamer brainlessway(need good syncro cause damage is not very high)...Now we can't!...a r6+ grenthway brainless can defeat us without big problems.

All monks who play HA are going crazy(derv = too much damage, too much pressure, too much interrupt)...and the question is:
TODAY...WIN A MATCH THE MOST SKILLED AND PRO TEAM...OR WIN WHO PLAY GRENTHWAY IN BRAINLESS MODE(random attack, random pressure, random interrupt)???

I'm not QQ...just said that HA in crisis cause people are tired to play grenthway or lose with a proskilled team like balanced against a stupid grenthway that don't use brain, don't know how to move in a map, don't know how to use their skillz....USE THE BAR IN RANDOM MODE IS ENOUGH TO WIN A BATTLE.

placetoguru · Mar 04, 2011, 10:41 AM // 10:41

wow, u think i'm not a pvp player because i started this thread, and told everyone that grenth isn't hard to counter?? its really not that bad, and i have monked against it and i'll admit its not a walk in the park but its still very manageable and any balanced team can always drop the ranger/invoke for a bsurge and its gg. also ascolon this way isn't that great. and finally frag is by far the easiest spike to run its basically 3-2-1 eles smash their heads on keyboard and also if u are running the meta frag you shouldn't lose to grenthway cuz they all ball so much and they have no support all u do is spike out the dervs and its gg.
but seriously people, derv was a very under used class seeing no REAL use outside of a hexway or random gimik, and now its actually usefull, and still not overpowered because even though its pressure is high, its still inferior to a evis war in a spike orientated team.

*lemming* · Mar 04, 2011, 10:44 AM // 10:44

Just a friendly reminder: this is an English language forum.

placetoguru · Mar 04, 2011, 10:53 AM // 10:53

did i not type this in English...i'm lost dude

Oo Dany Oo · Mar 04, 2011, 10:56 AM // 10:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by placetoguru

wow, u think i'm not a pvp player because i started this thread, and told everyone that grenth isn't hard to counter?? its really not that bad, and i have monked against it and i'll admit its not a walk in the park but its still very manageable and any balanced team can always drop the ranger/invoke for a bsurge and its gg. also ascolon this way isn't that great. and finally frag is by far the easiest spike to run its basically 3-2-1 eles smash their heads on keyboard and also if u are running the meta frag you shouldn't lose to grenthway cuz they all ball so much and they have no support all u do is spike out the dervs and its gg.
but seriously people, derv was a very under used class seeing no REAL use outside of a hexway or random gimik, and now its actually usefull, and still not overpowered because even though its pressure is high, its still inferior to a evis war in a spike orientated team.

OMG.

Bsurge = useless ----> EDA
Spike dervs = useless ----> about 95 armor points+selfhealing+condition remove
...and when i read that derv have not support...OMG! Pnh+Prot+Fuse+a lot of skill can remove conditions and hexs. NICE JOKE(again)!
And the frag with this meta is not easy to play...

I quote you about " the old derv was useless", but this update makes all other professions useless...this is the real problem. Look in HA id1 and press P. All team are looking for AoG or other dervs type...but allways dervs!

Killed u man · Mar 04, 2011, 01:29 PM // 13:29

Place and Dany, no offence to either of you, but you both are prtty clueless.

For starters, Dany:

The fact that you classify your own guild as a "Fragspike"-guild already shows there a major flaw in your reasoning. I doubt you have much experience outside of fragility, and therefore you simply shouldn't comment on other builds as you have never played them yourself before. It kinda reminds me of all the Americans bashing Islam the first years after 9/11 as an evil religion that is based on the destruction of America. (Which is offcourse utter nonsense)

Then, you say Bsurge is useless when it's far from. Ebon Dust Aura doesn't make you immune to blind, it's simply 1 blind removal every 10 seconds. Spiking dervishes isn't an option? As I recall, a Scythe is a 2 handed weapon, and therefor Dervishes will most likely have around 85 base armor. That's far from "unkillable", and even with Blessed Insignia's, there's nothing cracked armor can't take care off. (And you should have cracked armor in frag spike)

On top of this, a fair amount of damage bypasses armor (fragility), and fragility was never meant to be a clean spike. It was originally designed as conditionpressure/spike build and was in fact called feveredway in it's early days. And I almost forgot: Fragway is a lame build. It's one of the easier builds to run in HA, aswell as one of the more powerfull ones. It's harder than regular hexway, grenthway and bbsway, agreed, but it's still a redicilously easy build to play, so you might want to drop this illusion that your guild is an amazing skilled HA guild.

To placetoguru:

You're also wrong in thinking dervs aren't overpowered, or even that Evisc warrior spike better. For starters, an Evisc bar is more a pure spike bar, and only deals reasonable pressure. (Axe numbers simply aren't that impressive) So a dervish bar, no matter how you throw it together, will always have more DPS than an axe because Scythe numbers are so redicilously high.

As for spike damage: Evisc + Exe respectively do around 90-100 crit damage each, so that's about a 300 damage spike (incl DW) every 8 adrenaline. Avatar of Grenth dervs (so not even spike specced) with Wearying Strike and Chilling Victory also do around 300 damage (incl DW) every 6 adrenaline. (Almost identical for 25% less adrenaline)
On top of this, Dervs have stackable IMS and IAS which makes for alot easier calling, aswell as alot harder protting for the enemy Monk (PR anyone?) It also means you'll build adrenaline a whole lot faster, deal way more pressure in between spikes AND (I almost forgot) have the ability to cause cracked armor on spikes with Rending Aura. (And cracked armor is golden in a balanced-spike build, as they usually never carry it cuz of lacking room)

Oh, I think I still forgot to add that after all of this, you still have 1 free skill slot to fill with any primary or secondary skill for utlity. (Grasping, Song, Shock, Bull's -still good on a derv-, prot strike for more spike damage, etc...)

Dervishes, not just Grenths, are extremely powerfull in PvP, and the 5 derv teams you're seeing right now are unlikely to get changed in the comming months if Anet don't tweek the numbers a little bit.

Avatar of Grenth in specific is simply used because it's the most versatile of derv bars, but it's far from the only problem. An Avatar of Grenth derv has got more spike capability than an axe warrior could have ever dreamed of, more pressure than a hammer warrior or sin could've dreamed of and more utility than any frontline ever could've dreamed of.

Just like with Invoke, bspam and most other overpowered builds, it's only a matter of time before the GvG community picks it up and start running 5 derv teams in GvG. (5 Dervs > 3 dervs + nec + ranger by miles)

urania · Mar 04, 2011, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Just a friendly reminder: this is an English language forum.

/threadwin (i was tempted to post a sarcastic remark myself, actually)

same for Killed's post.

at danny, lame does not equal no skill required (though I used to fancy considering it as such, for often enough some builds, especially hexways, were (well, are, as we could see in the last mAT) just too strong). its the proportion between skill requirement and its effectiveness thats broken. obviously, lameways played by skilled players will be even more effective and thus even harder to take down by, lets say, a balanced build.

oh and rejoice, guys, we got a mighty pre update:

Pre-Searing Updates

* New Pre-Searing quests are available from Lieutenant Langmar in Ascalon City.
* Added Kimmes the Historian to Ascalon City.
* Added the skills vendor Halbrik to Ascalon City.

Oo Dany Oo · Mar 04, 2011, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Place and Dany, no offence to either of you, but you both are prtty clueless.

For starters, Dany:

The fact that you classify your own guild as a "Fragspike"-guild already shows there a major flaw in your reasoning. I doubt you have much experience outside of fragility, and therefore you simply shouldn't comment on other builds as you have never played them yourself before. It kinda reminds me of all the Americans bashing Islam the first years after 9/11 as an evil religion that is based on the destruction of America. (Which is offcourse utter nonsense)

Then, you say Bsurge is useless when it's far from. Ebon Dust Aura doesn't make you immune to blind, it's simply 1 blind removal every 10 seconds. Spiking dervishes isn't an option? As I recall, a Scythe is a 2 handed weapon, and therefor Dervishes will most likely have around 85 base armor. That's far from "unkillable", and even with Blessed Insignia's, there's nothing cracked armor can't take care off. (And you should have cracked armor in frag spike)

On top of this, a fair amount of damage bypasses armor (fragility), and fragility was never meant to be a clean spike. It was originally designed as conditionpressure/spike build and was in fact called feveredway in it's early days. And I almost forgot: Fragway is a lame build. It's one of the easier builds to run in HA, aswell as one of the more powerfull ones. It's harder than regular hexway, grenthway and bbsway, agreed, but it's still a redicilously easy build to play, so you might want to drop this illusion that your guild is an amazing skilled HA guild.

Lol never say that my guild is a PRO GUILD!
Just say that with frag we could defeat a lot of ranked team cause we have done some week of training! =|
Other point: i have play a lot of balance, shockwave and other teams. So i can say that i'm not a noob in PvP. I know how teams works...I play frag with this guild...it's formed in january.
Another point: if frag is too much lame...why only 3 guild can play it in the right mode? I think that frag need a brain to done a good work and STOP TO THINK THAT ONLY BALANCED ISN'T LAME(lame = no skill are required to win)...and my idea of "HA IN CRISIS" is: GRENTHWAYER CAN WIN EASY...BUT NO NEED BRAIN TO DO THIS!

Hope i have explained my idea.

Have Fun!

Missing HB · Mar 04, 2011, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oo Dany Oo

GRENTHWAYER CAN WIN EASY...BUT NO NEED BRAIN TO DO THIS!

I understood , but there are also many flaws that should be fixed in HA though....Main problem with grenth dervish for me comes from hall map which is even more random now than it was , but that's more likely due to how the map is than the builds...

vinoth · Mar 04, 2011, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

EDIT: As an aside, why does everyone keep bringing up IWAY? In the last two years only a handful of people even run it anymore. The only time I see IWAY is when I play IWAY.

Log in 3-8 pm GMT Saturdays if you want to play iway. You will ALWAYS find an iway at that time period.

Skill is subjective and most people here are biased.

If it come from me, I do have my favourite build and I have played most builds, at high level. It takes equal amount of skill to be effective with any build at high levels (in HA). At r0-r12 where most people are extremely clueless in anycase,, You would probably think about build wars to win certain builds, but personally I do not recommend build wars - just identify where ur team is failing and replace/educate team mates. I lost to the dervish team a few times, but that was mainly due to my ranger not snaring.

Reverend Dr · Mar 04, 2011, 06:30 PM // 18:30

No sir. Your gimmick is not a valid build. My gimmick, however, is perfectly valid.

EDIT: also

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

It was originally designed as conditionpressure/spike build and was in fact called feveredway in it's early days.

No it was originally called fragspike. Most of the damage came from a low specced incendiary arrows. This was around October 2005.

Killed u man · Mar 04, 2011, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

No it was originally called fragspike. Most of the damage came from a low specced incendiary arrows. This was around October 2005.

I fail to understand the sense in this post, elaborate?

(And I just realized you can't spell elaborate without spelling borat, awesome!)

But yeah, I was talking about Fevered Dreams post buff.

Oo Dany Oo · Mar 04, 2011, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

I understood , but there are also many flaws that should be fixed in HA though....Main problem with grenth dervish for me comes from hall map which is even more random now than it was , but that's more likely due to how the map is than the builds...

Sure...but one of those is the new derv =D
I'm not saying that this is new only reason for the HA Crisis =)

placetoguru · Mar 04, 2011, 11:17 PM // 23:17

just to clarify what i said earlier on, i did say that and evis war is more for pure spiking compares to dervs were they are much better for high dps and pressure.
also 5-6 derv team have a big lack in defense and utility and 6 derv teams don't even have snares and hast apart from a crap load of cripple. and lastly too who ever said bsurge is useless, we are discussing the grenth build at the moment not a EDA build, also hasn't anyone realised that rupting their avatar makes them much less op?

Reverend Dr · Mar 05, 2011, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

I fail to understand the sense in this post, elaborate?

(And I just realized you can't spell elaborate without spelling borat, awesome!)

But yeah, I was talking about Fevered Dreams post buff.

Back in early prophecies Fragility had a higher energy cost, but did a lot more (something like 50) damage on application and removing. At the time Incendiary Arrows was a preparation that was like apply poison only with burning. Its attribute, wilderness survival, only affected the duration of burning, which at around 3-5 gave 1 second of burning. With the right bow under flurry/frenzy it would hit with the next attack right after burning was removed and the ranger alone was doing over 100 damage every second to a target. They neutered Fragility pretty hard after that.

Fragspike as a build is actually a very old concept.

diabiosx · Mar 05, 2011, 04:14 AM // 04:14

So like I have been playing League of Legends lately and god dam, its PvP done right. You have casual PvP where you can basically choose a bunch of roles depending on your randomly assigned teammates(DPS,support,TANK) Whats so awesome about it is that you are already matched with teammates by the game so you dont have to wait an hour to play the game(like RA, but you get to choose what role you want to play[aka no double monk BS in RA]), also they reward people for losing. GW should learn from this shit. Noobs lose all the time and they get nothing in return= instant ragequit go play something.

Krill · Mar 05, 2011, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

RA doesn't work well for this type of play. FA/JQ work better, but its all about the team size. Typical FPS servers have 12-16 or hacked server for 24 or more players on each team. This way new players are only 1/12, 1/16, 1/24 of the team and poor ability (typical of new players) can easily be covered up by the rest of the team. Just not really the case in RA where a player is 1/4 the team.

Playing in a typical 10 or 12 slot UT team deathmatch server one newb would ruin your chances of winning being frag bait. But, like GW the fps genre has been watered down to the point where a semi-retarded gorilla can be a good CoD player in three days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

EDIT: As an aside, why does everyone keep bringing up IWAY? In the last two years only a handful of people even run it anymore. The only time I see IWAY is when I play IWAY.

Because it was the most prevalent of the original gimmick builds that defined the format. I'd be a hypocrite to completely blast the build since I've done my fair share of pug iwaying when there was nothing else to do, but the fact that the skill still exist as is laughable. Instead of fixing an obvious flaw Anet saw it as creative and nerfed everything associated with iway besides iway. I guess it's funny that you still grief and gank with it but it just plays into the theme that HA is a joke.

Missing HB · Mar 05, 2011, 08:29 AM // 08:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by diabiosx

So like I have been playing League of Legends lately and god dam, its PvP done right. You have casual PvP where you can basically choose a bunch of roles depending on your randomly assigned teammates(DPS,support,TANK) Whats so awesome about it is that you are already matched with teammates by the game so you dont have to wait an hour to play the game(like RA, but you get to choose what role you want to play[aka no double monk BS in RA]), also they reward people for losing. GW should learn from this shit. Noobs lose all the time and they get nothing in return= instant ragequit go play something.

Very right post , although that's what i kept saying for months

. But , LoL has a more competitive environment , thus people still try and get rewarded for losing. Here , i'm almost sure people would afk and fights would be like 1v2 instead of 4v4...Like , i was trying DotA map ( not official ) on sc2 and people are still trying until the very end of the fight , even if we know it's lost... Players mentality is really different ...

Actually , like it's been said many times , changing glad title to 1 point per win would be a good move for " noobs " ( even for other players in fact...)

Swingline · Mar 05, 2011, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

Actually , like it's been said many times , changing glad title to 1 point per win would be a good move for " noobs " ( even for other players in fact...)

Been saying this for a while. Doing the same to codex might help it see some more play to. A feature RA should have is if one or two ppl are leeching they are replaced with 2 fresh RAers who actually want to play. The players they replaced also should get a different debuff that makes it so u cant play for 1-2 hours. If u decide to go to the bathroom or w/e when the game starts and u get booted for leeching oh well, you should have left and took the 15 minute debuff or went before u entered.

As for HA i dont know what to do anymore. I guess its all up to anet and what they want to do. I think it should have been randomized like RA but 5 1/2 years ago. Two forms of pvp one chaotic and the other organized. TA would give ppl a taste of organized before moving to gvg and same for RA and HA.

AmbientMelody · Mar 05, 2011, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by placetoguru

First off i know people have a lot of different opinions about the state of Guild Wars PVP. but from my perspective some thing BIG needs to be done, and not just from A-net.

Most of these discussions go down to Anet being at fault, and i'll agree in some ways. but today i want to put this out to the community because its us (me included) who abuse skill updates, abuse glitches and over powered skills just to gimmick our way for a few wins in Halls.

Now any HA player will know what i'm talking about, hey, the problem is documented on pvx wiki. new skill update = meta shift and new gimmick
so i'm putting it out to the community too see what we could together to fix the state of HA and PVP in general to both encourage a broader player base and maybe a way of balancing skills better in upcoming updates.

please only constructive inputs.

Hah. Some will laugh at me for this, but reverting back to 6v6 format might just do the trick ... if you can put up with 'gimmick vs gimmick' mentality.