Curse

tonyh · Apr 21, 2011, 05:39 AM // 05:39

Another problem is Wounding Strike dervishes in a spike build. The recharge is ridiculously low and they can spike whenever the midline gets spells recharged. That means a full on spike every less than 10 seconds. That is faster than the eviscerate bar and unless you land a Bull's it's more damage too.

floor · Apr 21, 2011, 10:42 AM // 10:42

Perma cripple needs to be removed, this is the joke that has lead to dervish train, take out the cripple and ppl can actually kite damage, making 1 man pain trains ineffective.

Lyssas haste also needs a major rework, you either need to remove it entirely, or at the very least make it require you actually hit the target to get an interupt (like warriors rupts). Unblockable and instant cast is retarded.

These are honestly the only 2 major problems with dervishes really, if your team just dies to the condition spam and the damage alone, then you probably have got problems with ur teams positioning and/or monks ability to negate damage. Warriors just never highlighted these fundamental flaws to the same degree.

People complain about dervishes ability to have perma primal rage, but when u trade this off for their lack of knock downs compared to warriors, its not that bad honestly.

Sk8tborderx · Apr 21, 2011, 11:51 AM // 11:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by floor

Perma cripple needs to be removed, this is the joke that has lead to dervish train, take out the cripple and ppl can actually kite damage, making 1 man pain trains ineffective.

Lyssas haste also needs a major rework, you either need to remove it entirely, or at the very least make it require you actually hit the target to get an interupt (like warriors rupts). Unblockable and instant cast is retarded.

These are honestly the only 2 major problems with dervishes really, if your team just dies to the condition spam and the damage alone, then you probably have got problems with ur teams positioning and/or monks ability to negate damage. Warriors just never highlighted these fundamental flaws to the same degree.

People complain about dervishes ability to have perma primal rage, but when u trade this off for their lack of knock downs compared to warriors, its not that bad honestly.

Balance isn't just about numbers, it is also about skill:reward ratio. Twin moon sweep is also just plain retarded with increased adrenaline gain from Avatar of Balthazar or Onslaught.

I don't understand how you say permanent cripple is bad because it prevents kiting damage, yet permanent IAS+IMS is okay because of no knock-downs. That just doesn't make any sense, they both make kiting almost useless.

Killed u man · Apr 21, 2011, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyh

Another problem is Wounding Strike dervishes in a spike build. The recharge is ridiculously low and they can spike whenever the midline gets spells recharged. That means a full on spike every less than 10 seconds. That is faster than the eviscerate bar and unless you land a Bull's it's more damage too.

An even bigger problem with that bar is Rending Aura for a guaranteed cracked armor (And an over +- 30% damage increase on spike if target was on shield or a non-60AL target) and the option to throw Rending Sweep on that bar. People are severely underestimating the power of being able to strip Spirit Bond/shielding on spikes as the frontline.

TheRakeman · Apr 21, 2011, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Has Anet said anything about further Derv balances? I'm hoping they don't consider the issue resolved with that last set of minor nerfs.

Woodelf Archer · Apr 21, 2011, 05:38 PM // 17:38

I'm hoping the update is so long in coming due to them reworking a great many skills. Even if they nerf AoB and AoG - Onslaught, EDA and a whole bar of questionable skills remain.

I would like Dervs to be a viable option in PvP, but I'd rather they were smitersboon'd than remain so ridiculous.

Krill · Apr 21, 2011, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Well it took over 6 months to fix turret rangers part deux, over 6 months to fix warrior's endurance, over 6 months to fix R/As and over a year to fix the sin buffs altogether. Not exactly a hopeful precedent.

Reverend Dr · Apr 21, 2011, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krill

Well it took over 6 months to fix turret rangers part deux, over 6 months to fix warrior's endurance, over 6 months to fix R/As and over a year to fix the sin buffs altogether. Not exactly a hopeful precedent.

Especially considering at the end of each was the dartboard buff that brought on the next bad meta.

bungusmaximus · Apr 21, 2011, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krill

Well it took over 6 months to fix turret rangers part deux, over 6 months to fix warrior's endurance, over 6 months to fix R/As and over a year to fix the sin buffs altogether. Not exactly a hopeful precedent.

By the time they fix this débacle I wont be playing anymore, it's summer, and pretty nice weather here in the netherlands. No idea why I should go bother about a game that has turned to total shit in such a short time (Not even factoring in underpopulation of ANY arena out there). Players don't care anymore, developers don't care anymore, lolguildworz.

urania · Apr 21, 2011, 09:56 PM // 21:56

i vote for reverting everything to how it was during prophecies era. problem solved.

Coast · Apr 21, 2011, 10:04 PM // 22:04

fine with me, lots of people will qq tho

cantalus · Apr 21, 2011, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

i vote for reverting everything to how it was during prophecies era. problem solved.

i often think this too

Groth · Apr 21, 2011, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSX

I think AoB needs to be toned down a bit like AoG, and some skills too (harrier's grasp for example)

aside: I wonder if its possible to give mesmers or necros some sort of shut down hex to target flash enchantments specifically. Like how have ignorance for signets and vocal minority for shouts or in the necros case add it to a Well Spell also? (To compliment some more tweaking on the derv to allow for warrs and sins to be viable again)

Mesmer Dervish counter: Me/N Backfire + Gaze of Contempt followed by Empathy or Ineptitude then run like hell... (note: ineptitude is in Illusion and points to make it effective will be sorely missed as Backfire kills the derv recasting flash enchants)

Edit:
Gaze = all enchants removed if over 50% health (when are dervs not over 50)
After casting Backfire and Gaze, plague touch/sending the cripple from illusion of haste is a good way to kite or force a backfiring spell/flashchant
Is this a fool proof way of handling a dervish? Absolutely not, but it is a set of skills easily fit into most existing bars (or already in them) that does severely hamper dervish OPness.

Balancing options: (for the sake of brevity i will only talk about mesmer as i have a tendency to be verbose)
Empathy
Increase energy, shorten cooldown AND duration of empathy while giving it an alternate function such as:
Hypothetical Empathy: 15energy 1sec cast 5sec cd for 3..5..7 seconds, whenever target foe attacks, that foe takes 15...56...65 damage and deals 2...14...20 less damage. If Enchanted, Hexed foe cannot gain health from attacks.

Reasoning: Higher energy cost and shorter cast time/duration forces more targeted/strategic melee shut down from the mesmer while still making it less effective than Ineptitude (elite) and forcing the mesmer to think about whether or not to just automatically remove an enchant from derv/sin/war (primarily the first two).

Caution: Dervish Enchant stripping = detonation in many builds, use wisely and when dervish splits from group...

JSX · Apr 21, 2011, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groth

Caution: Dervish Enchant stripping = detonation in many builds, use wisely and when dervish splits from group...

I meant like preventing them from activating flash enchantments, or their tear down effects become disabled.

ALSO

Quote:

Dervish

* Aura of Thorns (PvP): split for PvP; increased Energy cost to 10.
* Avatar skills: increased recharge to 20 seconds.
* Avatar of Balthazar: decreased Burning duration to 3 seconds.
* Dust Cloak (PvP): split for PvP; increased recharge to 10 seconds.
* Harrier's Grasp: decreased Cripple duration to 2...9 seconds.
* Lyssa's Haste (PvP): split for PvP; increased recharge to 25 seconds.

A step in the right direction. LH got a massive hit. I enjoyed making people rage it with

. But what really puzzles me is... why did they not make harrier's grasp work only with scythes or something... or reduce the cripple on thorns....

Sk8tborderx · Apr 22, 2011, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSX

But what really puzzles me is... why did they not make harrier's grasp work only with scythes or something... or reduce the cripple on thorns....

This is ANET, are you really that puzzled?

Groth · Apr 22, 2011, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Edited previous post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSX

I meant like preventing them from activating flash enchantments, or their tear down effects become disabled.

A step in the right direction. LH got a massive hit. I enjoyed making people rage it with

. But what really puzzles me is... why did they not make harrier's grasp work only with scythes or something... or reduce the cripple on thorns....

I agree I think they're doing the balancing right, its just frustratingly slow, incrimentally adjusting the skills towards nerf is far preferable to enormous changes across the board in my opinion.

I also admit that I am a terrible dervish (lack of practice mostly)
I love the idea of swapping the bleed and cripple on AoT, but i think what was overlooked in the Derv update was "Downsides"

Sins: require lots of bar space for combos and chains, a disabled lead attack is devastating... HUGE downside

Warriors: have downsides in every attribute, from skills that are stances in PVP to double damage or half armor when using certain skills to a primary attribute with woefully few adrenal skills, in addition to absolutely no way inherent to the profession to remove conditions or hexes (I will survive! is laughable and should keep its current form but reduce durations by x percent (ack! totally went off topic))

While I believe the elite forms should be "uber" and have little to no downside (grumble grumble warrior elites with downsides) I think many of the flash enchants should have downsides in addition to enchant stripping having no effect if enchant was removed before x duration. If no effect before x duration, then certain attacks which remove enchants should probably have their cooldowns reduced or removed but have the bonus effects from enchant removal increased or be the only damage source of the attack as a balance.

Example:
Hypothetical Dervish Attack skill:
5energy 1/2 second cast 0 sec recharge.
Scythe Attack: deals no damage. If you hit, you lose 1 dervish enchant: removal effect the wrath of all the gods beats the ever loving piss out of target foe and up to 2 adjacent foes. [no effect and attack misses unless lost enchant has been in effect for 10 seconds]. (or) [attack misses if not under the effect of a dervish enchant removed enchant is disabled for 10 seconds]

Whacha think?

Edit: Edited hypothetical dervish skill to cause miss unless under the effect of a dervish enchant to prevent conjur/weapon enchant abuseability

snikerz · Apr 22, 2011, 07:53 AM // 07:53

good to see they used one of my ideas; reduce burn to 3 secs.

i can understand anets reasons for not nerfing dervs to the ground too much after revamping them, and these small tweaks are in the right direction, wouldn't hurt to have a few more tweaks put in place, few good ideas in this thread from others.

i've trialed the new Aura of Thorns, i didn't really notice any increased pressure.

still a train of dhumm

floor · Apr 24, 2011, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sk8tborderx

I don't understand how you say permanent cripple is bad because it prevents kiting damage, yet permanent IAS+IMS is okay because of no knock-downs. That just doesn't make any sense, they both make kiting almost useless.

dervishes do NOT have permanent speed buff. Fleeting Stability is the speed buff of choice generally, and not only does it last 4-5s only on a 10s recharge, it is also used as a tear down enchantment as part of many attack combos.

Without cripple its perfectly possible to kite dervishes. Twinned with dervishes inability to hit criticals on moving foes at anywhere near the same level as warriors, not kiting dervishes is plain stupid.

From my point of a view as a monk, dervishes without insane amounts of cripple (and also lyssas haste rupt spam) are easily comparable to warriors making good use of kd's in terms of difficulty to hold up against.

kedde · Apr 26, 2011, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Only, that doesn't even get too close to the point. They're still very one dimensional in their playstyle, only versatile because of overpowered skills and require no finesse to play at all. That all brings us back to where we were before they were buffed with warriors being The melee character of we go by the logical path.

Terrible Surgeon · Apr 27, 2011, 06:18 AM // 06:18

Warriors are core and meant to be the main melee, the other melee classes are meant to be more specialized. Sins for a fast spike, dervs for a tank, etc..however dervs can tank and gank now...Op as shit and no point arguing against that. They need to nerf the derv back into a caster-tank that does smaller dmg or eliminate the AoE done by scythe attacks.