Curse

deathy · May 26, 2011, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

As I said, outside of the "it takes no skill" argument (which is very tenuous, in my opinion), I haven't seen any reason to continue nerfing Dervishes - and it seems neither you nor floor can raise any arguments other than "it takes no skill".

No offense, but this reminds me suspiciously of this article.

Things that take less skill are generally less fun to play, and play against. There's no satisfaction from either side.

Jeydra · May 26, 2011, 05:42 AM // 05:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Lets talk about sub-top-tier play, the mid-tier. I mean it is hard enough to talk about an abstract, since there is no mid tier, but lets try.

In top-tier then monks can compete against dervishes and make them look out of place. That is why warriors will be in top tier. When we drop down to mid tier [or would hypothetically], right now its dervs against monks and a derv player that simply understands the priorities of skill use is going to stop a monk that has a very good, but not top-tier, understanding of and performance in his role. To say it is frustrating to the monks is beyond an understatement.

Simple enough solution then ... get better?

@deathy - I wouldn't go that far. Without permanent cripple (and to an extent even with permanent cripple) I don't find Dervishes less fun to play against than Warriors. Or R/D's, for that matter.

Reverend Dr · May 26, 2011, 08:51 AM // 08:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Simple enough solution then ... get better?

This is the attitude. This is the attitude.

This is the attitude.

This is the attitude.

hahahaha

This was the line that I repeated over and over again laughing.

This is the attitude that drove all of the mid-tier players out of the game. This is the attitude that made so many people, the 'critical mass' of players quit the game. This is the attitude that fails to see beyond one's own dick and that a game needs to be good at levels beyond top tier, because not everyone can reach top tier. If there are no ranks to work through, then whatever population you have at the top is the only population you have at the top.

Jeydra · May 26, 2011, 09:15 AM // 09:15

Lol! I wait for the day ANet nerfs Frenzy because bad Warriors can't cancel out of it in time when getting spiked.

I don't care if bad players who aren't interested in getting better quit the game. Good riddance. Have a nice day.

*lemming* · May 26, 2011, 09:34 AM // 09:34

Stop playing devil's advocate, Jeydra.

Missing HB · May 26, 2011, 11:11 AM // 11:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I don't care if bad players who aren't interested in getting better quit the game.

Why would they have to get better to beat people who don't want to and simply abuse the game ??

But on the other hand , i'm pretty sure it's what they're believing in their updates ....Why shall we keep a few PvP'ers like us complaining everytime whereas 90% of the game would be happy getting faceroll and no skill involved build

Jeydra · May 26, 2011, 11:20 AM // 11:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Stop playing devil's advocate, Jeydra.

I believe what I say.

@Missing HB - read the context. If top-tier Monks can keep pace with top-tier Dervs but mid-tier Monks can't vs. mid-tier Dervs, would you suggest the mid-tier Monks quit the game (or come to Guru and yell for nerfs to Dervishes), or to get better?

Sk8tborderx · May 26, 2011, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Monks have a high skill ceiling, Dervs don't. Once you have the basics down for any melee (positioning, target selection, etc.) you are pretty much playing a Derv at max efficiency. That isn't even close to being true for monks.

The answer isn't monks need to get better, it is Dervs are retarded and need(ed) to be destroyed.

Sankt Hallvard · May 26, 2011, 12:59 PM // 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I don't care if bad players who aren't interested in getting better quit the game. Good riddance. Have a nice day.

Face it, he just beat you with a better argument.

You retort with some elitish bs you don't even believe yourself. I know trolling guru is a nice past-time but I get the feeling you are mostly deluding yourself. Sometimes it's just better to accept the better argument even at the expense of "losing face" or whatever. After all the prime focus of a discussion should be to reach some sort of consensus or at least help you understand the other side's points better, not some exercise of "self-realisation". Right?

deathy · May 26, 2011, 01:14 PM // 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I believe what I say.

@Missing HB - read the context. If top-tier Monks can keep pace with top-tier Dervs but mid-tier Monks can't vs. mid-tier Dervs, would you suggest the mid-tier Monks quit the game (or come to Guru and yell for nerfs to Dervishes), or to get better?

Regardless, all I ever see from you, is taking what someone else has written, and then trying to find fault with it. You rarely make a point of your own, and the 'faults' you find are often wrong. They simply derail the discussion while we spend time explaining why things are the case.

Jeydra · May 26, 2011, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathy

Regardless, all I ever see from you, is taking what someone else has written, and then trying to find fault with it. You rarely make a point of your own, and the 'faults' you find are often wrong. They simply derail the discussion while we spend time explaining why things are the case.

Very well, in that case I'll state outright that if Dervishes and Warriors are equally viable in high-level play, then Dervishes do not need any more nerfs.

Before the nerfs, you could argue that Dervishes get unconditional, maintainable IAS with no drawbacks. They could apply cripple easily and non-stop. They could train a target while threatening interrupts (via Lyssa's Haste) and the target is powerless to stop them. Now however, nobody has posted an argument for nerfing Dervishes more without involving "skill", which is an argument I don't accept. I propose therefore that Dervishes are balanced.

Somehow I think your response to this post will include finding faults with this post, and then explaining why I'm wrong.

kedde · May 26, 2011, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Can we feed the troll less by now. If his only argument is that needing to be good at the game is invalid, then there's no reason to continue.

Jeydra · May 26, 2011, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sk8tborderx

EDIT: @Jeydra - That isn't even true, you need to account for the skill-reward ratio of classes. Dervs take a LOT less skill then warrior, if they are equally viable, they are still broken.

I don't account for skill, and see no reason to, especially since the much-hyped "Dervishes take no skill" argument is wrong (you cannot take a random Dervish from RA and win gold with him). With Warrior and Dervish equally viable for top-skilled players - this statement is open to dispute though, I'll grant - I call them balanced as professions.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

Read the last part about skill, and replace "dragon punch" with "Bull's Strike".

Quote:

Originally Posted by floor

How people cannot see that dervishes are retarded is truly unbelievable. Dervishes have now been buffed to output the same (if not more) damage than a warrior, with maintainable IAS and IMS (even after the update!), they spam more conditions than your mum, and also have ridiculously high armour levels so you cant kill them.

/salute for actually posting something other than "skill".

I'll point out that Dervishes have innate problems, biggest of which is their lack of KDs (which I suppose is why Hammer Warriors still saw some play before the update). Warriors, with ridiculously high armour levels augmented by a shield, are difficult to kill too.

Simple way to see how strong Dervishes are now - look at what happens in the mAT. If Dervishes still dominate, then we can say (for the initial post-update meta at least) that Dervishes are still overpowered, and more nerfs necessary. If they don't, then I'm maintaining my opinion.

*lemming* · May 26, 2011, 07:16 PM // 19:16

My eyes hurt from having had to read that.

urania · May 26, 2011, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Lol! I wait for the day ANet nerfs Frenzy because bad Warriors can't cancel out of it in time when getting spiked.

I don't care if bad players who aren't interested in getting better quit the game. Good riddance. Have a nice day.

Why would you want to get rid something that makes you look good and lets you continue playing in an otherwise deadish game?

Come on Jey, you can do better than that.

Jeydra · May 27, 2011, 11:01 AM // 11:01

I dunno man but if good Warriors can bash mid-tier Monks in with Frenzy, better nerf Frenzy quickly before all the mid-tier Monks get driven out of the game, OK?

Btw lemming I'll say now that I don't believe the above statement. It's silly. Solution to this and similar things is (as always) to get better.

Reverend Dr · May 27, 2011, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Jeydra, why would I possibly respond to your post with any type of actual discussion? You have made it perfectly clear that no only do you refuse to do anything more than just gloss over what is written, you will either pull bits out of context or simply put words into other people's mouths.

floor · May 27, 2011, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Warriors do not cause monks to spam elite bar pushing skills anything like as much as dervishes do. Dervishes do not make players better, they actually make it worse. Anyone who plays prot or heal monk at present, has learned its possible to stay alive relatively well simply by spamming rc and woh/hb. Therefore DECREASING player skill.

On the other hand warriors who do not "spam" damage, force monks to

a) watch the field and not red bars as much
b) prot selectively instead of just spamming guardian
c) use of prots "on time" is rewarded - example aura of stability / aegis / spirit bond to a lesser extent.
d) Make good use of kiting - since u cant kite a dervish, why bother?
e) warriors tend to revolve around more spike oriented builds, so good positioning is promoted to help staying alive.

It is just not just monks that get worse as a result of dervishes. Monks job has now become spam RC/WoH as much as u can and hope ur offence kills first. As a result of this the following changes happened:

a) rangers dont spread poison, they just camp RC. (also promotes Botting!)
b) nobody kites, because ur crippled anyway.
c) Monks are running bars with multiple small prots and spamming them.
d) Dervishes just faceroll their bar.
e) defensive midliners can just spam blind/blurr, rather than trying to actually protect against a key skill, such as a knockdown on a hammer warrior.

i think its fair to say that dervishes reduce the skill level of the ENTIRE guild wars population. Thus your argument "get better" is completely invalid.

cantalus · May 27, 2011, 07:29 PM // 19:29

hate dervwars, so boring to play against or with, but prefer it to the resurgance of bbway

Coast · May 27, 2011, 08:16 PM // 20:16

lol mat 28/05/2011