Curse

shadeblade47 · Oct 11, 2011, 04:26 AM // 04:26

Ok so here's how it works.
The warrior wreaks havoc on the fuse while the dervish calls small spikes constantly, grapple prepped with fleeting every other spike then apply DW with rending aura up.
Everyone once in a while you call a bigger spike led by the war. I've tried the war build and I can knocklock top 300 fuses for a good 15-20 seconds without a single patient getting off. On warrior spikes the invoke rends the target. Grapple + IMTDT gives me enough adren to get off another knocklock chain without missing a 1/4 cast.
On high priority spikes the warrior would knocklock the target while the derv was hitting it with rending aura (after rend enchants from the invoke) and the ranger would blackout the fuse with glass arrows on. He would then auto-attack on the spike. This would give the team about 4 seconds to spike with no fuse.
Chilling winds on the important snares, such as flaggers trying to stop boosting, followed by a water snare ofc.
My main problems are getting stance removal and counter-splits into the build. The ranger could counter split with the rt if needed, sending the prot to follow enemy damage. Regardless, grapple offers an on demand unblockable KD along a way to pump enough adren for about 3 bar run-thoughs before recharge and energy catch up to you. It requires a brain and coordination, but if the frontlines are experienced enough it should work. I'm working on trying it in matches in the next day or so.
I'm open to suggestions, trolling, thoughts. Feel free to post away.

NOTE: The attributes are not set yet.

The Cake Archer · Oct 11, 2011, 08:47 AM // 08:47

given that fuses run dis stance and the prot monk carries aos... as well as other prots, how do you have the warrior "wreck haavoc on the fuse"?

Quote:

top 300

oh i see

floor · Oct 11, 2011, 08:56 AM // 08:56

my first thought is which top infuses can you knock for 15s.... I'd hope their "top" prot would give them aura of stability long before then.

Secondly, no bulls strike? whilst not essential, it is an incredibly good skill to be dropping.

The ranger bar is perhaps a bit 1 dimensional. Since you dont have a fire ele or any burning elsewhere in the build, perhaps just use a burning arrow ranger to spike with? it would also provide you with a much stronger template if defensive/offensive splitting in a game became necessary. As well as being pretty comparable damage on spikes regardless since glass arrows is nowhere near as effective as it once was. Using BA also allows you to bring another preparation, ie apply poison, which twinned with AoE dervish + invoke damage, can actually add a lot of pressure to ur play, giving your build a whole extra dimension rather than only being able to spike. After all if you face a good infuser who just catches all your spikes, or you face an enemy midline that plays defensively and shuts down all your damage, whats your plan B?

Grapple on a dervish seems entirely unnecessary, just run another utility/damage skill. Dervishes are good at being deep wounds on wheels and outputting big damage, they really have no need of KD's. You can always just replace the kd you lose here, with gale on the air ele probably over chilling winds to provide a knockdown on spikes. (or another option, run mind shock > invoke? although i think taking gale is a better choice)

Unless you have very very very good monks, and are pretty much certain not to take many deaths, double death pact is likely not a good idea. Whilst 2 hard res's isnt a bad idea, it may be better to just take 1 copy of flesh of my flesh or something, otherwise your setting urself up for a chain death where 1 guy dies and 2+ other people then die on death pact.... Costly mistake.

As a prot monk myself, i would also recomend aegis > spirit bond, particularly since the "massive damage" flux has now ended, aegis is a much much better utlity skill, and by making optimal use of weapon sets you can pull its recharge down to around 20s average probably, thus making it an extremely powerful tool for both catching spikes and also for pushing in flags on players who are being snared, ie - no more snares can be applied during aegis, clean the guy, then aegis for a free run

I would also recomend taking balanced stance, as it offers far more utility vs sin kd's, meteors, gales etc which you may encounter either on stand or if you send the prot back to defend the base.

Should you decide that you are likely to be sending the prot back to defend vs splits, you might want to consider putting balanced stance on ur heal monk too. It makes him far more survivable as a lone healer on the flag stand.

On a tactical note, just sending the prot + rit back as you stated does not really "deal" with the enemy split as you are not going to kill it, so unless doing this allows you to just stomp through them at the flag stand using your offensive advantage, this is generally a bad play to make as it can leave your main team very exposed to collapses. A prot and a rit can also only defend the base for so long, eventually mistakes will happen, (a 3 man split team could probably push kills through a rit + prot anyway even if no mistakes were made) and ur npc's will die. Allowing a split to just sit in ur base even if u send healing back, is a very risky strategy.

In summary, you have seemingly pretty much based the build loosely around the [rawr] template, unfortunately a lot of the skills they used have been nerfed. 2 Ele + ranger spike builds have also been around for years and years in several forms, although presently people have generally dropped the ranger in favour of a mesmer, as shame/diversion allows for much more reliable shutdown on spikes, and esurge + shatter enchantment also provides very big armor ignoring damage, also incorporating energy denial and an enchant strip. Very strong for spiking monks. (keeping the ranger allows for poison spread instead of diversion/shame, so a weaker spike but more pressure and a more flexible build, personal preference really)

2 Dervishes is also probably better than taking 1 hammer. Outside of triple melee situations, Hammers dont really have a key role to play, as dervishes can output more damage, more frequently, with more deep wounds, and its AoE (useful for balling up knights/footmen etc) The missing KD's are easily compensated for by having a good ele make use of gale - Yes this does imply that ele is not just an easy-mode job for anyone to play, it does require a certain degree of timing and co-ordination. Particularly in spike builds, having a good ele (or two) will win games by itself.

*lemming* · Oct 11, 2011, 10:20 AM // 10:20

Gale accomplishes in one slot what you devote three on your frontline to doing.

What's the rationale behind that ranger bar?

Tyris Requiem · Oct 11, 2011, 10:41 AM // 10:41

The only reason to run a hammer in this build is if you bring a wild throw and use it knock the prot on spikes. Although u can just gale the monks instead... Otherwise like floor says a second derv is higher overall pressure

The typical dual ele spike in the current meta uses 2 Dervs, MoI, Invoke and a Dom Mez.

shadeblade47 · Oct 11, 2011, 01:08 PM // 13:08

The reasoning behind GA on the ranger is so that you can auto attack to contribute spike damage for the big spikes through blackout, and the monk and runner bars as well as counter splitting tactics were basically just the meta. I could drop blackout and make the ranger much more useful, I'm fully aware of this. I haven't really put any work or thought into that part of the build. The reason grapple isn't useless is because it can't be blocked and with IMTDT it gives me enough adrenalin to get off about 9 KDs without stopping. When I used the build I had a necro and mesmer who were keeping enchantments off of the fuse tbh, that is something I would work on with the team. I was thinking wild blow over rez or charging strike but I really don't want to go in without a rez or a stance cancel for flail. I say blow over throw because it can be used much more quickly than throw and if I use it before grapple I can easily get back my adren.
My counter splitting stated before was not to kill the split, it was to stop it from killing anything. They can sit in my base all they want as long as my team isn't taking enough pressure to warrant needing our prot and/or rt, in which case we would fall back and kill the split. I was thinking a MB over the water ele since the ranger has pin down anyway.

floor · Oct 11, 2011, 03:16 PM // 15:16

sending prot and rit back to defend the base is usually a terrible idea as i explained above, its basically the strategy that lost euros every single match vs americans for years and years. I do not recomend taking this approach. Your tactic of "full collapsing" when necessary probably isnt the best idea either, yes you would likely force them out of ur base, but not having any snares back initially on say the flagger for instance, only increases the chance that they all just escape the base before you can get to them, and then you have pretty much just given up the flag stand and put urself at a big disadvantage. The tactic ur suggesting is much more viable with builds like rt/p or invoke/blood spike, because the builds may have a variety of snares spread across the team (often including the flagger), and also skills such as fall back / incoming in order to facilitate making this play in the first place.

Its also worth noting your only going to get 9 kd's off vs a really really terrible monk. Proper usage of stances is fairly common place these days. And unfortunately stances > long kd chains. Hammer warriors are far more useful throwing around 1-2 KD's at a time, between either of the monks, flagger, midline, or even linebacking in order to restrict the opposing teams ability to do something, be that catching spikes or simply to prevent them dealing so much damage to relieve pressure. Just trying to perma train 1 target rarely works. Even W/P's with wild throw can be kited to a certain extent by making the most of ur stance when its available.

If your absolutely certain you want ur ranger to be a raw damage/shutdown character rather than having the ability to apply pressure, you would likely be much better off just taking a mesmer. Applying shame on a monk does the same function as blackout, you then get esurge and shatter enchant dealing close to 200 armor ignoring damage with the added dangers of power leak and diversion also fitting on the bar. Its not the most flexible build, but then neither is the ranger bar ur suggesting.

You also really shouldnt need charging strike to cancel flail, i mean if the other guy is kd'd its not like he can run away, so why does it matter that ur movement is slowed?Other hammer warriors have managed like this for quite some time now...

Taking wild blow > wild throw is also not that smart. Your just throwing away all your adrenaline for no reason at all. Im trying to think how much quicker wild blow could be used than wild throw, and the difference must be pretty negligible. I dont really see ur point of view on this one...

icedwhitemocha · Oct 11, 2011, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Like floor said, this basic spike has been around for years now (2 front, 1 ranger, 2 ele). Your build only has two unique points that I can see: one being copies of grapple on your front, and the other being your weird ranger bar.

The fact that you're assuming you can knocklock monks for fifteen/twenty seconds straight speaks of nothing but lack of realistic thought. Hit obs and tell me how many top hammer warriors successfully chain even bulls > dev > bash -- not for lack of their personal skill, but because no team is going to let you. Your target will be AoS'd, it'll use a stance, you'll be blinded, you'll be KDed, etc. This is why many hammer warriors in GvG don't even bother knocklocking unless they have yeti -- an extra hit before the second KD is often more useful than trying to disallow a 1/4s cast. (The reverse is true in smaller formats, btw.)

Also, knocking yourself down? Not really a good idea, adren gain or not. That's what enraging is for. You're not doing damage while you're on the ground.

Remember that your derv's KD is two seconds -- like lemming said, that's just a gale on the wrong bar. Chilling winds is debatable in theory and even worse in execution.

I don't play ranger, but I'm pretty sure Glass got the fk nerfed out if it, and your rationale of autoattacking while blacked out...uhhh, recurves don't fire that fast. You'll get a couple hits in, max.

Basically, it's my opinion that the things that make this team build stand out from its peers make it worse, not better. Also, be wary of, when/if you do try this out with a full team, accusing your team of "not playing it right" when it falls flat. (I've had to deal with my fair share of theorycrafting build experts in GvG guilds.)

ETA: didn't read floor's most recent post, we probably overlapped. But I typed it already so oh well, BAM.

Fluffy Kittens · Oct 11, 2011, 09:52 PM // 21:52

How do you shutdown enemy blinder/s? I dont think you can spike anything if their blind guy is free casting.

floor · Oct 12, 2011, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rezz Anna Nicole

How do you shutdown enemy blinder/s? I dont think you can spike anything if their blind guy is free casting.

For blind control, this build isnt actually that bad. For starters draw conditions = 4s recharge. Blinding Flash = 6s recharge. A good heal monk could remove most of the blind quite easily. That doesnt even take into consideration the possibility that you either d shot the blind flash, or just keep rending his Attunements, without the energy return from air attunement there is no way he'll be "spamming" blind.

@ Nibbit

Without trying to sound like an ass, i dont know who you or your guild are from ur forum name alone, BUT since you were winning champ points i'd presume ur playing at a reasonable standard. As such it can be argued that good players will (within reason) win with any build you give them, because they make the correct plays. In a lot of cases the build you play is pretty irelevant so long as you make the right tactical decisions. Even so, if my guild lost to this build, i'd be pretty worried as it doesnt even have that much damage, is only averagely flexible and contains very limited enchant removal and shutdown. You really shoudnt be dying to it with a competent backline...

Compare it for example to triple melee based builds, and the 3 melee team has a more flexible approach (especially when using a blood necro), that deals bigger damage, has at least equal shutdown (more if using magebane or a dom mesmer > the necro), a roughly equivalent number of snares, better enchant removal, and usually a stance removal on the hammer warrior.

The OP's build, has a lot of the fundamental ideas in there (snares / rupts / damge / KD's) but probably needs altering slightly as has been stated in above posts. The problem as such though, is that if you were to tweak the individual templates as previously suggested, you basically remove the "uniqueness" of the build. In improving this team setup you arguably just turn it into a meta build.

Of course this is hardly suprising, to create a functional build isnt necessarily difficult, but to create a good build that has not been seen/tested before is almost impossible since the game is so old. Every option has probably been tried out previously, and likely written off in favour of the meta builds we have today. Almost all team builds that you could come up with, are just adding together different variation of existing player templates. Compiling something new and special that actually works is just so unlikely... Although im not bold enough to stick my neck out and say its impossible.

Missing HB · Oct 12, 2011, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by floor

For blind control, this build isnt actually that bad. For starters draw conditions = 4s recharge. Blinding Flash = 6s recharge. A good heal monk could remove most of the blind quite easily. That doesnt even take into consideration the possibility that you either d shot the blind flash, or just keep rending his Attunements, without the energy return from air attunement there is no way he'll be "spamming" blind.

Thanks a lot but you know you can pretty run anything if you have very good monks. The same about some dshots, but the problem here is that the lack of damage in the build will basically make ele opponents camp 40/40 with no risk..

Personnaly, that's quite fun but i believe that this build, modded a little, could have nice results in Heroes Ascent, but it won't do a lot in GvG vs top players running some OP metas... If they get fixed, then sure why not....

icedwhitemocha · Oct 13, 2011, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by floor

The problem as such though, is that if you were to tweak the individual templates as previously suggested, you basically remove the "uniqueness" of the build. In improving this team setup you arguably just turn it into a meta build.

Quoted for emphasis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nibbit

We also used SoC and ''Mh!'' on the warrior for ghostly and relic maps.

Well, that leaves grapple on the derv and glass on the ranger as the only unique points worth mention. Blackout has been seen on rangers off and on since the distortion+storm chaser days and is hardly new. See above for my thoughts on chilling winds.

Apologies to the OP, but any reason the build may be successful has very little to do with the things that set it apart from the equivalent meta build and everything to do with the 99% that is similar.

Btw, I've seen onslaught dervs with shock on obs. Your method of fleeting + grapple is better, but takes two skill slots on a cramped bar.

superraptors · Oct 13, 2011, 05:36 AM // 05:36

may aswell do trip ele and replace ranger with a fire ele, it is better overall.

and @ above how can you go 4 hours in ra? its capped at 25 wins...talking mad shit?

floor · Oct 13, 2011, 08:05 AM // 08:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

Thanks a lot but you know you can pretty run anything if you have very good monks. The same about some dshots, but the problem here is that the lack of damage in the build will basically make ele opponents camp 40/40 with no risk..

Monks carry a team a lot less than many people imagine. Good monks in a good team = a great team. Good monks with a bad offence is still a terrible team, as bad positioning combined with not killing and poor shutdown will entirely negate the fact that you are playing with a skilled backline in the first place. You still find yourself dying in 1 minute even with very skilled monks because they simply end up spamming heals in order to stay alive and cant really focus on cleaning frontliners.

In a sense, monks basically only support a team, and cannot carry it. You can support an already functioning team and achieve great things, on the other hand trying to carry a dead weight leaves you going nowhere....

icedwhitemocha · Oct 13, 2011, 08:50 AM // 08:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nibbit

After succesfully farming champ and fame points, we then decided to use this build in ra (not saying we synced, but its synced) and we had consecutive wins for like 4 houres. Almost broke our shoveway ra record which still stands at aroung 4,5 houres!!

Weird thing however was that we errord out of ra after between 24 and 26 wins??? CAn someone explain why we all suddenly errord' out maybe??

Will provide screenshots of consecutive ra wins after i get back on my laptop where i have acces to the screens

Edit: btw our 4 man team consisted out of the 2 eles the prot and the rit

Wow. Can I just. Are you the OP's very bestest buddy or something?

I'm just more than a little confused why you keep going on about "this build" as if it's something amazing and everyone has to try it. Here's the newsflash in case you missed earlier in the thread: People have been running "this build" for years -- barring the minute changes that people itt agree make it worse, not better. Unlike me, floor in particular has ample experience in current high-level play, and to ignore his advice and words would be your (and the OP's) mistake.

And now you're talking about RA? Even if RA wasn't a joke, and it is, looks to me like you griefed wins with two healers + blinds + blurred. Think about what makes you proud enough of that to post about on a forum.

Lastly, I'm going to take the liberty of speaking for everyone in saying nobody cares about your screenshots.

I Jonas I · Oct 13, 2011, 02:36 PM // 14:36

How are you supposed to spike people when your warrior and dervish knock themselves down and your ranger disables his own skills?

Wielder Of Magic · Oct 13, 2011, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Jonas I

How are you supposed to spike people when your warrior and dervish knock themselves down and your ranger disables his own skills?

I suppose that in OP's perfect world the derv will always have fleeting up to cancel KD, and that the prot always gives aos to the warrior, while also knowing when to aos others to prevent spiking, while the ranger can spike using auto attack from pre-casting glass arrows before using black out.

the combo for "IMTDT!" and self KD is idiotic to begin with.

in short: this can't spike shit.

ErrantVenture · Oct 13, 2011, 08:09 PM // 20:09

This just looks like a gimped version of Eurospike (http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Team_-_GvG_Euro_Spike_2011) That relies too heavily on poor skills like grapple and glass arrows.

shadeblade47 · Oct 13, 2011, 09:56 PM // 21:56

This build was posted a lot more for the concept than the setup. I've said previously that the midline are not at all set in stone. You want to KD yourself, you need to use IMTDT in order to get enough adren to get off another chain of KD without missing a beat. I've toyed with the warrior bar and grapple + IMTDT honestly works well in any game type. Grapple overcomes blinding and blocking, and you can pump adren fast enough to actually qknock about 9 KDs in a row. The rest of the team was me, in my boredom, playing off of that.
Why would you post on a build thread like this "the meta is better". The meta also consists of the same tactics and not much real thought. Blind and blur the frontline, kite and stance, pre prot blah blah. I was just trying to basically come up with a backline shutdown, without really putting enough thought into AOS.
I honestly feel that grapple makes a great addition to a KD bar. How many times have you seen a rez or started a spike and got hit with blind or saw the enemy stance? Well anything other than balanced stance or AOS was just surpassed by grapple. And sure, you can say that + IMTDT is a waste of 2 slots for a 1 slot KD. The whole purpose is the KD AND the adrenaline. Even if you don't keep the enemy in knocklock the whole time because of AOS, you're still putting a lot of pressure on the enemy team by being able to chain KD. Honestly, it's not hard to tell when AOS or balanced stance is up so i generally go knocklock another target and keep any eye on the monk. Even if you hate the build, try out grapple. This all started with trying to improve a KD warrior bar, then adding a KD on the derv for necessity, then evolved into this half baked build.
As a final note, as it was stated earlier every single thing has pretty much been thought of at some point at this age in GW. If you're going to be critical, at least attempt to think of ways to keep the concept and improve on it. Even something equal to meta but different than it would be a nice change of pace in my opinion.

Reverend Dr · Oct 13, 2011, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadeblade47

If you're going to be critical, at least attempt to think of ways to keep the concept and improve on it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by floor

The OP's build, has a lot of the fundamental ideas in there (snares / rupts / damge / KD's) but probably needs altering slightly as has been stated in above posts. The problem as such though, is that if you were to tweak the individual templates as previously suggested, you basically remove the "uniqueness" of the build. In improving this team setup you arguably just turn it into a meta build.

I'm not certainly what "concept" you are trying to go for. Were you going for backline shutdown? Improved warrior KD? Monk stomping? Or are you just looking for a build that is 'different'? Its kind of hard to keep the concept when your own posts are confused about it.