Curse

Fate Crusher · Aug 04, 2011, 12:32 PM // 12:32

Trappers in 4v4 is just a nono. You're effectively forcing your team to play 3v4 and not to mention defensively.

And tbh, condition pressure? you just said Draw is mega important for monks and keeping frontline clean, so a new trap every 15 seconds isn't going to bother a proper team.

Midliners will also catch on and just wand/spear you constantly, I'll even do it when I monk.

My RA dream team will always be monk, mesmer, ele, war. As much as I respect rangers, a mesmer just brings more to the table in 4v4.

superraptors · Aug 04, 2011, 01:54 PM // 13:54

ranger + monk with veil > mesmer anytime, mesmers are sitting ducks.

urania · Aug 04, 2011, 01:56 PM // 13:56

^that and apply poison>mesmer.

superraptors · Aug 04, 2011, 02:20 PM // 14:20

i think ranger was almost nearly staple in most ta builds whether it was using a bow or not lol

poison is vastly underestimated

Fate Crusher · Aug 04, 2011, 03:40 PM // 15:40

I only prefer this because of my monk build. I run Draw, as well as vigorous spirit and Disciples. It practically makes a ranger's only usefulness is disruption, their poison spread isn't exactly pressure if I'm running anti pressure. And because there's no pressure, I only need to spam patient and fake out Guardian.

Granted, poison could be good synergy with condition spamming Dervs. Oh and with me preferring mesmers, is because of ench strips, diversions and power block xD.
It's still a toss up, I'm not badmouthing rangers lol.

And yes, rangers were staple in TA to help counter hex ways.

Sankt Hallvard · Aug 04, 2011, 04:44 PM // 16:44

We've had this discussion before and no agreement was reached.

People still think ra=ta and that having a monk that can use veil properly is commonplace.

HigherMinion · Aug 04, 2011, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Then you have signet of suffering nec with FF and dshot... >ranger!

urania · Aug 04, 2011, 05:47 PM // 17:47

rangers do much more than just control hexes and spread degen.

on sos nec id rather take plock for word.

HigherMinion · Aug 04, 2011, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

rangers do much more than just control hexes and spread degen.

Block, IMS, Degen Spread, multi-rupt spam and team condition removal. What else?

Coast · Aug 04, 2011, 08:48 PM // 20:48

dmg with their bow u forgot

urania · Aug 04, 2011, 09:34 PM // 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Block, IMS, Degen Spread, multi-rupt spam and team condition removal. What else?

by multi rupt 'spam' you probably meant:
rupting key skills defensively (rupting crushing blow after a kd, rupting shove vs shove spikers) and offensively (locking key skills such as the other ranger's apply, woh, hex removal, key hexes such as faint/insidi/empathy/div/shame), locking rezzes,
watching their positioning (esp for quick nearest target rupts), if they have bo, using it when situation calls for it,
e denying the mo (deb shot is evil, more than e surge)
and im sure there could be other things, depending on what they run.

i believe it to be one of the most demanding tasks(or at least, it used to be that in TA), next to a wail&ff necro.

superraptors · Aug 04, 2011, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fate Crusher

I only prefer this because of my monk build. I run Draw, as well as vigorous spirit and Disciples. It practically makes a ranger's only usefulness is disruption, their poison spread isn't exactly pressure if I'm running anti pressure. And because there's no pressure, I only need to spam patient and fake out Guardian.

Granted, poison could be good synergy with condition spamming Dervs. Oh and with me preferring mesmers, is because of ench strips, diversions and power block xD.
It's still a toss up, I'm not badmouthing rangers lol.

And yes, rangers were staple in TA to help counter hex ways.

poison spread is not pressure? lol, thats e denial right there, a monk is going to need to draw it or place a vigorous on that target, not even going to argue about having a pblock its pretty risky unless you are botting.

poison is good by its own doesn't need synergy of any sort, lets just say apply was nerfed to the ground, no one would ever run rangers anymore.

rangers weren't just used to counter hexway, they were used in dual thumps, hexway itself, also normal balance and a few others.

the only time a mesmer will be of any use in a 4v4 is playing a vor or esurge imo.

Our Virus · Aug 05, 2011, 06:43 AM // 06:43

I understand where both sides are coming from on the ranger vs meaner topic. I would have to learn toward ranger. They have more armor, and if you can actually rupt then a ranger is better for that. Not to mention rangers usually have a slot for cond/hex removal, which can make the difference in a game

Grape Bird · Aug 05, 2011, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Anyone want to comment on the meta shift towards pure healing monks and a slow disappearance of prot? To me, this shift indicates not only a lack of understanding, but also a degeneration of player quality. Are monks stupid enough to believe patient spirit is better than a well-placed Guardian? Moreover, are they stupid enough to believe this after playing many matches?

Coast · Aug 06, 2011, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Pure heal is just so much easier to play, that's a reason why most people play it.
This means they don't actually improve and general player quality goes down as everything gets simplified.

Fate Crusher · Aug 06, 2011, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Huh?

Well I can only speak for myself but Guardian has never left my bar. Even when hexways dominated RA and people were bringing double hex removal, I always felt safer with veil+guardian.

I'm only surprised that you are bring this up because I would have thought that since Dervs have been meta for the past few months (not to mention last month's linebacking bonanza flux), more monks would be running Guardian. I even ran Zealous Benediction with triple prots (soa, sh, guardian) to a degree of success.

If you find players like this, this is most likely not the meta but PvE players who are used to other ways of damage mitigation and 4-skill monsters.

superraptors · Aug 06, 2011, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grape Bird

Anyone want to comment on the meta shift towards pure healing monks and a slow disappearance of prot? To me, this shift indicates not only a lack of understanding, but also a degeneration of player quality. Are monks stupid enough to believe patient spirit is better than a well-placed Guardian? Moreover, are they stupid enough to believe this after playing many matches?

i believe pure heal monk bars slowly came into play when all the support + monk started running self blocks / stances, so there was almost no need to run guardian, and necros + monks use to chain protectors defence on each other and was almost impossible to land a kill, rangers had 2 blocks and could fit an extra remove hex, also guardian use to be 2 second recharge so it was much more stronger years ago, you could basically keep 2 targets protted on all times.

i guess its the monks these days that expect all players in ra should have some sort of self block or positioning skill and they should.

powercreep means the monk needs to run more pure heal or extra hex removal / e manage etc, cant really blame them for running pure heal in a crap meta these days, tell me how are you going to handle a esurge mesmer with guardian or backfire?, people use to never run vigorous but guardian was slowly phased out and replaced by vigorous (not patient) for obvious reasons, 1/4 cast is godly, covers your veil instantly when someone is about to strip it. teams cant all rely on the monk to carry them, the monk needs some synergising too with their team, they can't compact 1 whole bar to counter raw damage, hex pressure, e denial soooo be a good boy and bring a block or positioning skill when you are in ra and maybe your monk wont be under pressure 24/7

Jarin · Aug 06, 2011, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by superraptors

i believe pure heal monk bars slowly came into play when all the support + monk started running self blocks / stances, so there was almost no need to run guardian, and necros + monks use to chain protectors defence on each other and was almost impossible to land a kill, rangers had 2 blocks and could fit an extra remove hex, also guardian use to be 2 second recharge so it was much more stronger years ago, you could basically keep 2 targets protted on all times.

i guess its the monks these days that expect all players in ra should have some sort of self block or positioning skill and they should.

powercreep means the monk needs to run more pure heal or extra hex removal / e manage etc, cant really blame them for running pure heal in a crap meta these days, tell me how are you going to handle a esurge mesmer with guardian or backfire?, people use to never run vigorous but guardian was slowly phased out and replaced by vigorous (not patient) for obvious reasons, 1/4 cast is godly, covers your veil instantly when someone is about to strip it. teams cant all rely on the monk to carry them, the monk needs some synergising too with their team, they can't compact 1 whole bar to counter raw damage, hex pressure, e denial soooo be a good boy and bring a block or positioning skill when you are in ra and maybe your monk wont be under pressure 24/7

Couldn't agree more. More shield bashers please.

Llint · Aug 07, 2011, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by superraptors

powercreep means the monk needs to run more pure heal or extra hex removal / e manage etc, cant really blame them for running pure heal in a crap meta these days

Powercreep is really all there is to it.

People used to run dual blessed light monks, now nobody has touched blessed light in ... 2 years? 3?

You used to run signet of devotion, and look how crap that is comparatively.

Heck, just compare Gift of Health to Patient Spirit.

kedde · Aug 07, 2011, 11:41 AM // 11:41

BLight and similarly outclassed skills today are by no means bad. The reason as you correctly mentioned is powercreep, but it's not as simple as them just being worse. The thing is that powercreep forces every character into more defined roles where their strength lies and moves the game further and further away from versatility, which is where skills like BLight shine.