Curse

HigherMinion · Apr 05, 2011, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Prot Defense is better for a caster; you get to deal damage on the penalty you don't move (and who would, when you have 75% block) There really is no downside, unless you're stupid and they kite very quickly past your aggro range.

bungusmaximus · Apr 05, 2011, 09:56 AM // 09:56

Skillls that discourage kiting are dud. I don't say theyre overpowered, its just zzzzzzz. Why I never run water ele in RA? because monks tank everything with dolyak (can it ever get dumber) and lolbonettis instead of simply running away from snared targets.

Missing HB · Apr 05, 2011, 10:24 AM // 10:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Skillls that discourage kiting are dud. I don't say theyre overpowered, its just zzzzzzz. Why I never run water ele in RA? because monks tank everything with dolyak (can it ever get dumber) and lolbonettis instead of simply running away from snared targets.

Stance monks are a problem for years anyway. But on the other hand , those " survive buttons " are quite needed for GvG against those triple melee stuff... If you consider they balance the game around GvG only....

bungusmaximus · Apr 05, 2011, 10:35 AM // 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

Stance monks are a problem for years anyway. But on the other hand , those " survive buttons " are quite needed for GvG against those triple melee stuff... If you consider they balance the game around GvG only....

I have nothing at all against shit like bonettis, dstance, bstance and whatnot, monks would last 2 seconds without them, and theyre not overly hard to work around (people have to count, should be something they learned to do at 5 yrs old). Even bonettis is manageable, train monkys teammates hard and profit. It's just dolyak and prot defense I cant stand, and those aren't even stances. I like games where good movement and positioning wins.

Considering they balance around gvg I have to conclude they do a pretty shitty job at that, but thats another story for another thread...

HigherMinion · Apr 05, 2011, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

I have nothing at all against shit like bonettis, dstance, bstance and whatnot, monks would last 2 seconds without them, and theyre not overly hard to work around (people have to count, should be something they learned to do at 5 yrs old). Even bonettis is manageable, train monkys teammates hard and profit. It's just dolyak and prot defense I cant stand, and those aren't even stances. I like games where good movement and positioning wins.

Considering they balance around gvg I have to conclude they do a pretty shitty job at that, but thats another story for another thread...

I never understood what was so good about Dolyak's. It's a Signet with aftercast, long recharge/short duration, and it's a self snare. Is that +10 AL really worth it?

Sankt Hallvard · Apr 05, 2011, 01:02 PM // 13:02

People have still not figured out how to work around monks stancing up I see. Also it's amusing to see how skills that have been around forever just suddenly are considered OP. What's next? Pensive guardian?

Ariena Najea · Apr 05, 2011, 01:07 PM // 13:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

I never understood what was so good about Dolyak's. It's a Signet with aftercast, long recharge/short duration, and it's a self snare. Is that +10 AL really worth it?

It is useful versus the decent Dev Hammer Warriors who bring Wild Throw, and to a lesser extent Forceful Blow and Whirling Axe. The AL isn't bad, but the main benefit is the KD prevention with the 20s recharge compared to 30 for Balanced Stance. Tactical movement isn't as important in RA as it is in other formats, so on some builds (like the WoH Fortress) you can power heal through the uncoordinated RA damage with no need for those prots or this kiting I keep hearing about.

HigherMinion · Apr 05, 2011, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

It is useful versus the decent Dev Hammer Warriors who bring Wild Throw, and to a lesser extent Forceful Blow and Whirling Axe. The AL isn't bad, but the main benefit is the KD prevention with the 20s recharge compared to 30 for Balanced Stance. Tactical movement isn't as important in RA as it is in other formats, so on some builds (like the WoH Fortress) you can power heal through the uncoordinated RA damage with no need for those prots or this kiting I keep hearing about.

But any other Block stance would, most of the time, prevent the KD without wasting a slot for specifically removing the threat of KDs.

Sankt Hallvard · Apr 05, 2011, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

But any other Block stance would, most of the time, prevent the KD without wasting a slot for specifically removing the threat of KDs.

Stoning.
And you can run dolly and bonetti at the same time. Ta-daa...

urania · Apr 05, 2011, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

Stoning.
And you can run dolly and bonetti at the same time. Ta-daa...

that, and neither of them cost a single point of energy. tadaaa.
another possible combo is doliaks+shield bash, but its usually not enough to stop more than 1 melee train on you.

Ariena Najea · Apr 05, 2011, 03:11 PM // 15:11

The +10 versus armor is technically stronger than the immunity to crits (crits effectively reduce armor by 20, but proc <50% of the time) for dealing with pressure. 8/20 is stronger in my opinion than 14/30 (at 8 Tactics), and doesn't require any speccing. Most of the block stance options are better suited to deal with spikes than pressure. Consider the following:

Protector's Defense - Good with good teammates, but you can't guarantee that
Bonetti's Defense - Bad against good players, which is when it matters
Balanced Stance - Already said
Disciplined Stance - Terrible uptime... junk against pressure
Shield Stance - As Disciplined Stance, but doesn't help while casting
Wary Stance - Doesn't save you from being trained
Shield Bash - Bad for getting trained

To be honest in the current meta I would much rather bring Return and kite. Laugh at frontliners, cripple your frontline's targets, and win with prots, Draw, and Veil.

I heard Karla used to use Veil =O

Seraphim of Chaos · Apr 05, 2011, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

The +10 versus armor is technically stronger than the immunity to crits (crits effectively reduce armor by 20, but proc <50% of the time) for dealing with pressure. 8/20 is stronger in my opinion than 14/30 (at 8 Tactics), and doesn't require any speccing. Most of the block stance options are better suited to deal with spikes than pressure. Consider the following:

Protector's Defense - Good with good teammates, but you can't guarantee that
Bonetti's Defense - Bad against good players, which is when it matters
Balanced Stance - Already said
Disciplined Stance - Terrible uptime... junk against pressure
Shield Stance - As Disciplined Stance, but doesn't help while casting
Wary Stance - Doesn't save you from being trained
Shield Bash - Bad for getting trained

To be honest in the current meta I would much rather bring Return and kite. Laugh at frontliners, cripple your frontline's targets, and win with prots, Draw, and Veil.

I heard Karla used to use Veil =O

Cripple isn't worth too much with derpy skills like Grenth's Fingers and Harrier's Grasp running around.

Ariena Najea · Apr 05, 2011, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seraphim of Chaos

Cripple isn't worth too much with derpy skills like Grenth's Fingers and Harrier's Grasp running around.

I haven't seen very much Grenth's Fingers, and Harrier's Grasp does have a 15s recharge (same as Return). The shadow step effect is far from useless on its own, with creative positioning on many of the maps (bridge on D'Alessio, elevation on Fort Koga, middle of Amnoon, etc) can give you a solid breather.

Also, use of Harrier's Grasp after being hit by Return precludes it from being used at other times to remove Weakness or Blind. It isn't perfect, but can function within multiple roles.

Been running this, if you don't like protting then bring SoR instead of SH or SoA:
OwcU0YY+y/QeRNgCErE3V3E1ECM

Bearmeat · Apr 06, 2011, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Heres a little variation I play on the usual ranger builds.

http://gw.gamependium.com/tools/buil...eMIGVzs5XrEEAA

Basically just chain blackouts on the monk while spreading poison. Natural Stride works great for getting into touch range on the monk. Dshot as soon as blackout runs out will interrupt something 90% of the time. Pin down and blackout can be used to relieve melee pressure as needed. Echo + dshot can be used to great results as well.

Blackout gets shut down by good linebacking and monks who know how to position themselves, but from this point you can just echo dshot and play like a normal ranger build.

yum · Apr 06, 2011, 10:05 PM // 22:05

How about just bring magebane?

Jeydra · Apr 07, 2011, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

The +10 versus armor is technically stronger than the immunity to crits (crits effectively reduce armor by 20, but proc <50% of the time) for dealing with pressure. 8/20 is stronger in my opinion than 14/30 (at 8 Tactics), and doesn't require any speccing. Most of the block stance options are better suited to deal with spikes than pressure. Consider the following:

Protector's Defense - Good with good teammates, but you can't guarantee that
Bonetti's Defense - Bad against good players, which is when it matters
Balanced Stance - Already said
Disciplined Stance - Terrible uptime... junk against pressure
Shield Stance - As Disciplined Stance, but doesn't help while casting
Wary Stance - Doesn't save you from being trained
Shield Bash - Bad for getting trained

To be honest in the current meta I would much rather bring Return and kite. Laugh at frontliners, cripple your frontline's targets, and win with prots, Draw, and Veil.

I heard Karla used to use Veil =O

Disagree with most of your analysis ...

Protector's Defense - your team can't pressure the other team nearly as well if they want to stay in range of you.
Bonetti's Defense - you throw up Bonetti's and the people bashing on you run away. That's not bad. I think the biggest problem with Bonetti's is the adrenaline cost, which is severe.
Balanced Stance - moderately useful against otherwise uncounterable KDs, such as Gale and Stoning. I don't particularly like it but I can see a purpose for it.
Disciplined Stance - this is an anti-spike skill. Saying it is junk against pressure is true, but that's like saying Spirit Bond is junk against pressure. Disciplined Stance can be used to break an attack chain or attempted quarterknock, too.
Shield Stance - as with Protector's Defense, but not that bad of a movement penalty.
Wary Stance - 10e cost, I don't like it.
Shield Bash - Sure it doesn't stop you getting trained, but melee not using attack skills = so much less damage. Ever had Wounding Strike bashed, or Dev Hammer? What about Jagged Strike, Falling Spider, Twisting Fangs?

About the bridge on D'Alessio, I love it when a Monk runs up the bridge. He can't get down, and he can't cast on targets out of his range. What I like to do - and I hope my teammates think so too - is to pull back slightly, enough so that the other team can't fight without being out of range of the Monk. If the other team wants to push, the Monk will have to Return down, which kind of kills any advantage Return might have granted. I remember winning a few matches because it was a Mo/W that ran up the bridge and then had to run back down the long way when his team ran out of his range ... oh, and going Mo/A loses 8 armour from the shield, which kind of sucks.

Don't get me wrong, I think Mo/A is viable, it's just a little less viable than Mo/W.

Ariena Najea · Apr 07, 2011, 02:02 AM // 02:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Disagree with most of your analysis ...

Protector's Defense - your team can't pressure the other team nearly as well if they want to stay in range of you.

If you can keep yourself and even one midliner under its effect, you only need to heal/prot two people. This lets you be extra efficient and get back energy.

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Bonetti's Defense - you throw up Bonetti's and the people bashing on you run away. That's not bad. I think the biggest problem with Bonetti's is the adrenaline cost, which is severe.

Yes, they run away and keep pressuring. Whether you are healing yourself or someone else, it still costs energy. Would much rather bring Guardian.

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Balanced Stance - moderately useful against otherwise uncounterable KDs, such as Gale and Stoning. I don't particularly like it but I can see a purpose for it.

No need to bring anti-kd versus either of these in RA, since teams running either are not likely to kill you on a spike, and you can easily heal through air/earth pressure.

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Disciplined Stance - this is an anti-spike skill. Saying it is junk against pressure is true, but that's like saying Spirit Bond is junk against pressure. Disciplined Stance can be used to break an attack chain or attempted quarterknock, too.

I never said Spirit Bond was a good skill for RA either (at least not on a WoH/HB bar). Pre-protting works just as well.

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Shield Stance - as with Protector's Defense, but not that bad of a movement penalty.

The movement penalty was removed in the Tactics update way back. It now functions similarly to Disciplined Stance, but lasts longer in lieu of bonus armor. Is bad for the same reason.

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Wary Stance - 10e cost, I don't like it.

Glad we can agree on something.

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Shield Bash - Sure it doesn't stop you getting trained, but melee not using attack skills = so much less damage. Ever had Wounding Strike bashed, or Dev Hammer? What about Jagged Strike, Falling Spider, Twisting Fangs?

Seeing as how I play Frontline more often than Backline in RA (probably a 2:1 ratio) , I have been on the receiving end of Shield Bash more than once. I just cancel my attack skill and train until it runs out. Then you have 15s with which to kill as you see fit.

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About the bridge on D'Alessio, I love it when a Monk runs up the bridge. He can't get down, and he can't cast on targets out of his range. What I like to do - and I hope my teammates think so too - is to pull back slightly, enough so that the other team can't fight without being out of range of the Monk. If the other team wants to push, the Monk will have to Return down, which kind of kills any advantage Return might have granted. I remember winning a few matches because it was a Mo/W that ran up the bridge and then had to run back down the long way when his team ran out of his range

It is pretty dumb if you don't have a shadow step, which of course I suggest bringing. It is also not a good strategy against every team, but I never claimed that it was. This is a defensive option only, but effective in certain situations.

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... oh, and going Mo/A loses 8 armour from the shield, which kind of sucks.

This is certainly a valid point. You take approximately 15% more damage from armor-based sources without this 8 armor, but kiting more than makes it for it.

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Don't get me wrong, I think Mo/A is viable, it's just a little less viable than Mo/W.

This depends entirely on whether you use a bar with prots or one without (ie WoH Fortress) and how good your team is. Power healing with stances works better with bad teams, against bad teams (90-95% of RA). Hybrid with prots and Return works better with good teams, against good teams, which I prefer since I am working towards my goal in gladiator.

Fate Crusher · Apr 07, 2011, 02:07 AM // 02:07

As much as I'd like to see Mo/A come back into play, monks still rely too heavily on the /W versatility.

Much to Ariena's suggestions, the more draw and condition removal you bring, the more useless Return's uncovered Cripple becomes.

Also, as I've tested already Boon Prot builds work great in this meta but only for about 3-5 minutes depending on how well you can manage your energy. It shows how effective protting and kiting can be, but it's still a long way to becoming a viable counter for today's meta. To take that into consideration for a WoH build with Guardian, smart players will force the monk to guardian others, meaning the monk will need his own plan of escaping when the target changes to himself, meaning Dolyaks or bonnetti's needs to be ready. Kiting doesn't work often nowadays (judging from my own experience) because of two things, a) Dervs are always leading with crippling sweep and then covering with several conditions and b) I run draw to remove cripple from the rest of my team.

Vicious circle? CoP would say Hi to me but sadly Veil and Vigorous Spirit takes precedence over that.

Ariena Najea · Apr 07, 2011, 04:25 AM // 04:25

Draw Conditions has a 4s recharge instead of 2 now, so it isn't quite as spammable. Versus Derv pressure, there are so many other sources of Cripple/Weaken/Blind that are being thrown around that some of them stick. Don't forget that the shadow step is invaluable. I've played around with a Mo/R MR Boon Prot, which destroys derv train but loses to everything else.

CoP isn't bad right now, especially if you take HB over WoH to free up a slot (Vig Spirit), but I like having the prots more since there aren't too many anti-caster hexes around. I am still surprised that more people don't run Migraine... that bar can out-spam Veil by itself and owns Cure Hex based bars.

Jeydra · Apr 07, 2011, 04:27 AM // 04:27

What does happen when I see Protector's Defense is something like this: my team's frontliners are trying to bash the other team's midliners dead, while the other team's frontliners are trying to bash my team's midliners dead. My team's midliners attempt to kite, and the obvious direction is backwards. The other team's frontliners cannot follow, because to follow is to run out of Monk healing range, and the Monk cannot move because it ends Protector's Defense. Pressure relieved, etc.

Bonetti's doesn't cost energy. I'm not understanding you. If they run away and keep pressuring is a good reason not to bring Bonetti's, then you could argue that Mo/E is the best Monk combination because if you use a stance they run away and keep pressuring anyway so why not just bring extra energy management.

If you're getting KD'ed once every 5s from Stoning, you can't heal well. If you're getting KD'ed twice every 5s from Echo'ed Stoning, you really cannot heal. Sure, you can kite Stoning, but if you're kiting you're not casting. If your team isn't taking damage in the meantime all the better for you, but if an Assassin unleashes his chain right then you'll probably take deaths. I'd argue that Balanced Stance has its uses.

Pre-protting works until it doesn't work anymore. There're so many situations when prot is unreliable: interrupts, a recharging prot, Backfire on you, enchant removal, two people getting spiked at the same time, etc etc etc.

Didn't notice Shield Stance has been changed. No big difference with Disciplined, then, although I still prefer Disciplined.

You cancel your attack skill vs. Shield Bash? Good luck to you, to be honest. Again, so many problems here. You don't know if the Monk is carrying Shield Bash and risk getting bashed once. Sometimes you don't have a choice but to attack, e.g. Crushing Blow following Dev Hammer. By canceling your skills, you give the Monk 5 seconds to get up, kite, etc. Quick activating skills are close to impossible to cancel, and if you're in an IAS stance there may not be time to cancel anyway. Of course a good Monk will not use Shield Bash without good reason.

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This depends entirely on whether you use a bar with prots or one without (ie WoH Fortress) and how good your team is. Power healing with stances works better with bad teams, against bad teams (90-95% of RA). Hybrid with prots and Return works better with good teams, against good teams, which I prefer since I am working towards my goal in gladiator.

How often did you see Mo/A's back in TA? I recall they were only present in Shovespike teams ...