Curse

Revelations · Jan 11, 2010, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windf0rce

Ah, the eternal melee x caster war. Melee have the higher armor and higher damage, they must be shut down or every match would be over in seconds...

Hexes are 'shit', but bars with 4 knockdowns are not (Dev Hammer)? Assassin tele-spikes can down a Mesmer or Necro from full health, so can a W/A. You say hexes are 'lame', I say hitting my face with hammer and keeping me on the ground with impossibility to kite is equally lame (can't kite Primal Rage Wars either, btw).

Before complaining about stance Monks and midline casters, take a look at how powerful physicals are if not shut down.

How the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO did you manage to completely miss the point in my post so badly? Please read what you're quoting before you respond to it.

The only slightly interesting mechanic that hex stacks promote is strong veilwork. If you honestly enjoy shitting on/getting shat on with over half a bar full of fire-and-forget passive shutdown then I can understand why you so vehemently come to the defense of the RA meta.

bungusmaximus · Jan 11, 2010, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Lol its RA, in TA one would simply stick a magebane in the hex shitters face, in RANDOM arenas you will have to work around not having that magebane. Pig headed warriors that take absolutely no self cleanup are partially to blame themselves for melee failing in RA.

J1000 · Jan 11, 2010, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

How the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO did you manage to completely miss the point in my post so badly? Please read what you're quoting before you respond to it.

The only slightly interesting mechanic that hex stacks promote is strong veilwork. If you honestly enjoy shitting on/getting shat on with over half a bar full of fire-and-forget passive shutdown then I can understand why you so vehemently come to the defense of the RA meta.

I do feel that we could use a few more skills to punish hexes, but if you're just going to trash RA (and the people who play it) you should switch threads.

RA could use less R, but it's still fun.

Oh, and I should mention, the problem isn't skill balance (although improvement there can't hurt), the problem is team balance, and all the jerk behavior it brings out in people. Something should be done to make it semi-random instead of totally random.

Windf0rce · Jan 11, 2010, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

How the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO did you manage to completely miss the point in my post so badly? Please read what you're quoting before you respond to it.

The only slightly interesting mechanic that hex stacks promote is strong veilwork. If you honestly enjoy shitting on/getting shat on with over half a bar full of fire-and-forget passive shutdown then I can understand why you so vehemently come to the defense of the RA meta.

lol don't get angry ok. It's all a matter of perspective.

I could quote your original post as:

"All of the meleeshit that floats around RA now is so disgustingly unfun to both play and play against. Regardless of position.

If the Dev Hammer/PRage templates died in a fire and Palm Strike took another hit RA might be worth playing again. If it ever was."

I never said I approve Hex stacking as a game mechanic. I Monk a lot, I would know. I just advocate using the available tools to counter equally lame things - such as the huge melee damage output coupled with anti-kitting measures - perma IMS'es, perma KDs, teleports. All of which ignore caster positioning no matter what.

urania · Jan 12, 2010, 09:46 AM // 09:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Lol its RA, in TA one would simply stick a magebane in the hex shitters face, in RANDOM arenas you will have to work around not having that magebane. Pig headed warriors that take absolutely no self cleanup are partially to blame themselves for melee failing in RA.

yet hexoverload was still one of the strongest builds in TA too (;
having a mb ranger doesnt mean autowin, it means you have a chance to win in comparison to a team setup without any kind of disruption, where you ought to lose if they have spammed their hexes "correctly".

but it stands true, a semi decent hexway (a nec+a mesmer, preferably vor spammer) and something to spread pressure (in an ideal case, a r/p or in an almost ideal case, a MB spammer) is a free ticket to 25.
when TA was stil there, it was a free ticket to 50 for me and 70+ for those that continues afterwards o.o
regardless of what you say, a run like that is hard to imagine with physicals, because woh and patient are so strong, especially in combination with stances.

qvtkc · Jan 12, 2010, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Forces me to adapt to weird situations. I need the training

Hey this is a good reason. I too will start doing it more.

LightRain22 · Jan 14, 2010, 04:02 PM // 16:02

I agree with the one who said that we should carry ourselves through RA. If you want to win, adapt your build and playing style to do so. Instead of whining about not getting a monk (which happens to everybody, not just you), people should work on forming a build that has a moderate degree of self-defense.

By including self-heals, condition/hex removal in your skill bar, this will vastly improve your survivability in combat. I'm sure all professions have these type of skills. And if you are lucky enough to get a monk on your team, then by doing so you will have lessened pressure off him. Either way, you should not focus solely on offense and ignore defense.

My ranger always includes a condition removal (what use is your build if you're weakened or blinded?) and block stance/self-heal.

One more thing, perhaps the most important: BRING A RES SIGNET!

urania · Jan 14, 2010, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightRain22

By including self-heals, condition/hex removal in your skill bar, this will vastly improve your survivability in combat. I'm sure all professions have these type of skills. And if you are lucky enough to get a monk on your team, then by doing so you will have lessened pressure off him. Either way, you should not focus solely on offense and ignore defense.

and then your monk (myself, for example) rage quits when they see a:
-defy pain warrior (most typically, a wammo) with endure pain and doliaks
-a flashing blades sin with some additional self heal and ressurect
-avatar of balthasar dervish with 4 self heal skills and maybe, if you're lucky, 1-2 attack skills
-melandrus resilience anything, really (seen it on ALL possible physicals/casters already) with trolls unguent

there's a limit to how self-suffiecient you should be.

if you wanna carry a team (and there'll always be a limit to how "carryable" a team will be):
1)dont suck
2)get one of the cookie cutter builds that are actually effective (and try not to suck too much with it) - the game is 4 yo, if you want to be creative, go play CA; in RA, originality is not appreciated nor needed (given you actually wanna get somewhere)
3)keep rezzes locked

bungusmaximus · Jan 14, 2010, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Theres a difference between, say, a cripslash with sig of malice and a endure/defy pain warrior with mending and healbreeze. Who uses RA to 'get somewhere'? :P

J1000 · Jan 14, 2010, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

the game is 4 yo, if you want to be creative, go play CA; in RA, originality is not appreciated nor needed (given you actually wanna get somewhere)

Wrong, wrong wrong. People should experiment in RA. It doesn't matter if it's not appreciated. That's the whole point of Guild Wars PvP... to come up with new ways of countering whatever is popular. It doesn't matter how old the game is. How old is the NFL? Yet we're still seeing weird stuff like the Wildcat formation. Guild Wars should see far more experimentation than the NFL, since it's not played for money, and since it is designed to encourage that sort of thing.

Good luck experimenting in CA, where you can't even pick from the all the skills. CA is something else entirely.

Ariena Najea · Jan 15, 2010, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

and then your monk (myself, for example) rage quits when they see a:

*snip*

-melandrus resilience anything, really (seen it on ALL possible physicals/casters already) with trolls unguent

Mel's is actually useful with or Foul Feast, but otherwise I agree with you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by J1000

Wrong, wrong wrong. People should experiment in RA. It doesn't matter if it's not appreciated. That's the whole point of Guild Wars PvP... to come up with new ways of countering whatever is popular. It doesn't matter how old the game is. How old is the NFL? Yet we're still seeing weird stuff like the Wildcat formation. Guild Wars should see far more experimentation than the NFL, since it's not played for money, and since it is designed to encourage that sort of thing.

Good luck experimenting in CA, where you can't even pick from the all the skills. CA is something else entirely.

I agree, but I think you are missing some of the point. There is a difference between experimenting with a good theorycraft, and bringing absolute garbage like a Defy Pain tank. I agree that RA is great for experimentation, but most people are just bad, rather than experimenting with something potentially useful.

Snow Bunny · Jan 15, 2010, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Actually, what's so bad with bringing a Defy Pain warrior into RA?

Run Dismember, Bodyblow, bullstrike, defy, frenzy, rush, sig, optional.

It's actually a fairly underrated elite. People run shockaxes in RA, and the damage lost from eviscerate to dismember isn't that bad. RA more and more requires a degree of survivability on each individual teammate.

Yes, you're trading your elite for defense, but as long as you're not tanking enemies, and simply using it as something of a "9th skill" for your monk/rit/whathaveyou, I find it acceptable. Especially so because you're still doing big damage, you're just doing 36 or so less every 8strikes of adrenaline.

Sankt Hallvard · Jan 15, 2010, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Actually, what's so bad with bringing a Defy Pain warrior into RA?

No one said anything about defy pain itself. Karla mentioned defy pain wammos with dolyak and endure pain. Bungus mentioned defy pain wammo with healing breeze and mending. And Ariena(the noobmod who loves to delete my high quality posts) talks about "defy pain tanks" which I assume don't include the build you just posted with frenzy/dismember. I agree with you that defy pain is a pretty kickass elite. If anything it's probably OP. It's definitely not manly, though.

@Karla: By 'getting somewhere' in RA, where exactly are you heading?

J1000 · Jan 15, 2010, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

There is a difference between experimenting with a good theorycraft, and bringing absolute garbage like a Defy Pain tank. I agree that RA is great for experimentation, but most people are just bad, rather than experimenting with something potentially useful.

I think we need to make a distinction here between people who are going out of their way to be idiots, and people who are just less skilled. Joining the game just to ruin other peoples' fun is not cool. But there's nothing wrong with just being bad. What are they supposed to do, stop playing?

Windf0rce · Jan 15, 2010, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by J1000

Wrong, wrong wrong. People should experiment in RA. It doesn't matter if it's not appreciated. That's the whole point of Guild Wars PvP... to come up with new ways of countering whatever is popular. It doesn't matter how old the game is. How old is the NFL? Yet we're still seeing weird stuff like the Wildcat formation. Guild Wars should see far more experimentation than the NFL, since it's not played for money, and since it is designed to encourage that sort of thing.

Good luck experimenting in CA, where you can't even pick from the all the skills. CA is something else entirely.

I agree with her points.

a). Codex rewards originality - due to the sealed decks, it's possible to outbuild others every day; in RA however everything was tested to exhaustion - all optimal builds are out there, any variants will likely be inferior. There is simply no need to reinvent the wheel here - the good builds are out there already.

b). Getting somewhere = glads ofc.

It's not that originality, or even bad players, are totally unwelcome in RA. Sometimes it's good for the laughs, however when you are a regular it does start to get frustrating because you are doing your part and not being rewarded at all due to bad luck of being paired with joke/troll/bad players.

There are nights we play for laughs, sure, to go and 'troll' someone with a terrible build, win or lose all for fun. But there are nights we are there to win, let's not be hypocrites, winning is very good, and like it or not, there are the builds that will vastly increase the win ratio.

AndroBubbles · Jan 15, 2010, 06:40 AM // 06:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Play pious restoration derv gg, hexes LOLWUT?

I have mixed feelings about this.

Pious restoration is a nice spell, but you have to put it an enchantment to make it effective, and that might be a slot you could use for a different form of utility. Also, it's much more easily interrupted now. A mesmer can empathy you then powerspike your pious restoration before moving on to a caster target. All without much effort. It's something I like to do myself.

When I'm on a dervish, I just go with big damage so that I can plow through hexes without having to wait to remove them.

J1000 · Jan 15, 2010, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windf0rce

I agree with her points.

a). Codex rewards originality - due to the sealed decks, it's possible to outbuild others every day; in RA however everything was tested to exhaustion - all optimal builds are out there, any variants will likely be inferior. There is simply no need to reinvent the wheel here - the good builds are out there already.

b). Getting somewhere = glads ofc.

It's not that originality, or even bad players, are totally unwelcome in RA. Sometimes it's good for the laughs, however when you are a regular it does start to get frustrating because you are doing your part and not being rewarded at all due to bad luck of being paired with joke/troll/bad players.

There are nights we play for laughs, sure, to go and 'troll' someone with a terrible build, win or lose all for fun. But there are nights we are there to win, let's not be hypocrites, winning is very good, and like it or not, there are the builds that will vastly increase the win ratio.

This is a very common mentality today, and it's wrong. Even if it's true that "the good builds are out there already", which I disagree with, you are robbing people of one of the most fun (and fundamental) parts of the game by telling them they can't figure out builds themselves.

I understand that it makes you upset to get paired with someone who doesn't use one of your cookie cutter builds, but you can't go into RA expecting everyone to cater to your needs. I would argue CA is more geared toward that type of thinking, since you can create your own teams, and since the skillset is deliberately limited.

And once again, let's stop lumping joke/troll players in with bad/new players. They aren't the same. I might add bad/new players are also not the same as good, experienced players who are formulating new builds.

[DE] · Jan 16, 2010, 07:54 AM // 07:54

The best part about RA is the ability to fill up your utility slots with whatever you want and not get punished for it. Example, Bull's Strike and Rush on a Derv. Bulls wouldn't be the most optimal skill to bring in a GvG on a Derv, but you can throw it onto one in RA and still be effective and have fun, especially when casters think they can kite you without fear of KD.. ^^

urania · Jan 16, 2010, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Theres a difference between, say, a cripslash with sig of malice and a endure/defy pain warrior with mending and healbreeze. Who uses RA to 'get somewhere'? :P

When I enter RA, I want to make a decent amount of wins, possibly 25. That is where I'm "getting to".

Quote:

Originally Posted by J1000

Wrong, wrong wrong. People should experiment in RA. It doesn't matter if it's not appreciated. That's the whole point of Guild Wars PvP... to come up with new ways of countering whatever is popular. It doesn't matter how old the game is. How old is the NFL? Yet we're still seeing weird stuff like the Wildcat formation. Guild Wars should see far more experimentation than the NFL, since it's not played for money, and since it is designed to encourage that sort of thing.

Good luck experimenting in CA, where you can't even pick from the all the skills. CA is something else entirely.

Sure. But the experimenting I usually meet doesn't even fit the goal of an experiment - to create a new (or as buildmaker geniuses like to say, "unique") build that is useful/good and helps winning games, of which I did my share.
Unfortunately, it's too late for that, because normally it is only a (vast) skill balance update that shakes things up in that regard...however, more often than not it shook things up in a negative way only (most recent examples: foul feast+plague sending, woh, prage, vor).

The charm of CA (sometimes) is you can run decent to good builds that'd be obliterated in a other formats (for example, a mo/me with rof, woh, *insert some cond and hex removal* and waste not worry not+ether signet), but can be run very successfully in CA, given the offense isnt too overpowered and given you can use the secondary skills properly.
Such a monk would be steam rolled in RA (mind I'm taking into account the worst possible situtation - playing vs synchers or some other form of a perfect team that usually kicks you and your army of wammos out).
Unfortunately, CA more often than not sucks because such ideal situations are a rather rare treat. And saying "everyone's stuck in the same shit" isn't an excuse I find satisfactory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

Mel's is actually useful with or Foul Feast, but otherwise I agree with you.

I agree, but I think you are missing some of the point. There is a difference between experimenting with a good theorycraft, and bringing absolute garbage like a Defy Pain tank. I agree that RA is great for experimentation, but most people are just bad, rather than experimenting with something potentially useful.

Sad as it is, I havent yet met a mel resilience necro (I even thought of trying it myself once, but changed my mind).

And yes, that was what I was getting at as already written.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Actually, what's so bad with bringing a Defy Pain warrior into RA?

Run Dismember, Bodyblow, bullstrike, defy, frenzy, rush, sig, optional.

It's actually a fairly underrated elite. People run shockaxes in RA, and the damage lost from eviscerate to dismember isn't that bad. RA more and more requires a degree of survivability on each individual teammate.

Yes, you're trading your elite for defense, but as long as you're not tanking enemies, and simply using it as something of a "9th skill" for your monk/rit/whathaveyou, I find it acceptable. Especially so because you're still doing big damage, you're just doing 36 or so less every 8strikes of adrenaline.

Defy Pain coupled with a series of other survival skills is what kills it - any half decent monk won't ever die to a warrior like that.
Moreover, the usual Defy Pain warriors do NOT do big damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

@Karla: By 'getting somewhere' in RA, where exactly are you heading?

the journey to 25, ofcourse :P.

At Windf0rce, sure, codex rewards originality, but once originality means running dual heal chars and end up in 8 min matches all the time, all the fun in playing those original builds dies away very fast. Especially if the other 2 offensive characters easily kill brave single healer teams because of (most recent) KD lock (no anti kd skills nor stances) and strong disruption (d shot), both of which a single healer cannot handle for long (no quarter cast heal nor prot even).

at J1000, the problem is all the builds (since the last major skill update) that are effective in one way or the other have already been figured out. But if you wanna go in for lolz then sure, I can run a word with rof, guardian, draw conds or mend cond, mend touch, veil and spotless, and waste not worry not+ether signet, but without a significant defense from my teammates (hexes/blind/linebacking), my survivabilty decreases ten fold.

at [DE], not quite true (at least not for monks), read above.

On a side note, synching is as annoying as ever, even more now maybe, because its mostly the better players (sigh) that synch..most recent examples come from [RA] which normally synchs with four people (...) and then some ex zulu members that usually synch in pairs.

Snow Bunny · Jan 16, 2010, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

Defy Pain coupled with a series of other survival skills is what kills it - any half decent monk won't ever die to a warrior like that.
Moreover, the usual Defy Pain warriors do NOT do big damage.

It's not defy pain with a series of other survival skills - it's Defy Pain/Dismember/BodyBlow/Bulls/Frenzy/Rush/Rez/Optional (dchop/shock).

You're still doing very big damage - you're just losing the +36 or so from eviscerate, but because you're pulling off your adrenal spike more often.

You just have more survivability, which you gave up an interrupt or a kd for (probably give up dchop but that's me).

It's a shockaxe without eviscerate that won't melt in 5 seconds.