Curse

distilledwill · Nov 07, 2008, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Discord is freaking awesome, whatever the mode. Although it was originally designed for HM, its even more effective in NM where the enemies have less health. Unfortunately, there is no better hero team at the moment for NM or HM. The only downside of Discordway in NM is that enemies are usually dead before you have a chance to do anything against them, as long as you equip the heroes with conditions and hexes.

AtomicMew · Nov 07, 2008, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masao

...

You're contradicting yourself all over the place. I'm starting to believe you're just making up things. Why don't you just go ahead and post your build?

30 minions??? Okay... Triple MM ftw?

Quote:

Name some that are better for e-management.Oh, you can't.

Actually, I can.

Masao · Nov 07, 2008, 06:18 AM // 06:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

You're contradicting yourself all over the place. I'm starting to believe you're just making up things. Why don't you just go ahead and post your build?

30 minions??? Okay... Triple MM ftw?

There are no contradictions in any of my posts. If you would care to specifically point them out then I would accept such slander, but seeing as you have no evidence of any contradictory statements I have made, your point is moot.

[Mo/A AP Spammer;OwcT0GH7ZaXMm0mcBy6bfAAQnAA]

[N/Mo Bomber;OANDUshfSxMVBoBVVKV1DBEKgA]

[N/Rt Healer;OAhjUgGaIPxsMm0cyNOHmV1kLA]

[N/Rt Curses;OAhkUoG6xGGTMrKYHKDfCLRVN5C]

All rezzes disabled and microed when needed, which is pretty much never. Run with whatever henches are available and have high damage output.

WoW on N/Rt is swapped out for another copy of Bone Minions in areas with large amounts of corpses or over 200+ mobs.

Never use the last two slots on my bar, so I usually take an in-combat rez and some random Smite. I never get a chance to use either skill and really have no reason to since I'm busy enough spamming the first 5.

EDIT: Something wrong with the bbCode, keeps making the builds PvP versions.

EDIT2: Another problem with the bbCode, it's listing Weaken Armor as a hex.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Actually, I can.

Then make yourself useful to us and spill it instead of making unfounded claims.

Also, my monk is UAS and there is no better form of e-management than Castigation without maintaining enchants on myself or dropping AP. I've done my research.

Destro Maniak · Nov 07, 2008, 02:13 PM // 14:13

I only use IV for SS other than that I use classic sabs MM and I use HB necro healer

AtomicMew · Nov 07, 2008, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masao

There are no contradictions in any of my posts. If you would care to specifically point them out then I would accept such slander, but seeing as you have no evidence of any contradictory statements I have made, your point is moot.

Contradictions:
You stated you run with 30 minions. Your build does not have "30 minions." We are talking about hero/hench. I could care less about 2-man discordway atm.
You stated you kill ever 2 seconds. That's impossible considering discord doesn't even recharge fast enough. Also let's ignore the two facts that you need hex/condition primer, and that heroes have 7 other skills.

Quote:

Also, my monk is UAS and there is no better form of e-management than Castigation without maintaining enchants on myself or dropping AP. I've done my research.

Yes there IS better e-management available. It's called soul reaping. Note that I'm not even saying discordway + monk is bad - I'm just saying it's inferior, as monk primary brings nothing to the table compared to necro or even mesmer. Hence, you are forced to use **** like castigation signet.

Quote:

Then make yourself useful to us and spill it instead of making unfounded claims.

WTF are you talking about? My claim is that RF is superior to weakn armor because of AoE spreadability, duration (and not really important but damage too). I've backed this up with numbers, so maybe it is you who is unfounded.

Of course, if you're able to successfully roll 30 minions, it's doesn't make a modicum of difference, and I suspect it'd be inferior to have either as you'd already have poison from minions blowing up everywhere.

Masao · Nov 07, 2008, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Contradictions:
You stated you run with 30 minions. Your build does not have "30 minions." We are talking about hero/hench. I could care less about 2-man discordway atm.

My build runs with 30 minions depending on the area. Read my post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

You stated you kill ever 2 seconds. That's impossible considering discord doesn't even recharge fast enough. Also let's ignore the two facts that you need hex/condition primer, and that heroes have 7 other skills.

Number of other skills heroes have doesn't matter, since the majority are long recharge time. Hex/Condition primer takes 3/4 of a second to cast, Discord takes 1 second to cast, Finish Him! to seal the kill is instant.

By the time the mob winds down (I usually draw two groups at a time since minions will bodyblock all damage and AoE will kill faster, speeding up my VQ time), I can just AP and Finish Him! to kill the majority of the mobs, and Discord won't even matter.

Usually the last 4-5 mobs take only 3/4 of a second to kill, and quite often I can't even get off a cast of AP before they're killed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Yes there IS better e-management available. It's called soul reaping. Note that I'm not even saying discordway + monk is bad - I'm just saying it's inferior, as monk primary brings nothing to the table compared to necro or even mesmer. Hence, you are forced to use **** like castigation signet.

In case you didn't know, you can't spec Soul Reaping on a monk.

The entire point of Discordway is to make VQing easy for any class of character who has 3 Necro heroes. My main is a monk. This has nothing to do with having a Necro or Mesmer main. There is no better e-management for a Mo/A running Discordway than Castigation Signet.

You fail to argue against this point entirely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

WTF are you talking about? My claim is that RF is superior to weakn armor because of AoE spreadability, duration (and not really important but damage too). I've backed this up with numbers, so maybe it is you who is unfounded.

Of course, if you're able to successfully roll 30 minions, it's doesn't make a modicum of difference, and I suspect it'd be inferior to have either as you'd already have poison from minions blowing up everywhere.

Again you fail to read my post. It's quite obvious that my comment was directed toward your failure to state a better type of e-management for a Mo/A main running H/H Discord heroes and henchmen.

Which again you have failed to do.

N1ghtstalker · Nov 07, 2008, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Yes there IS better e-management available. It's called soul reaping. Note that I'm not even saying discordway + monk is bad - I'm just saying it's inferior, as monk primary brings nothing to the table compared to necro or even mesmer. Hence, you are forced to use **** like castigation signet.

tell me
how do you get soul reaping on a monk char?
srsly that would be an indestructible monk rly

MercenaryKnight · Nov 07, 2008, 09:37 PM // 21:37

If you need more energy management as a caster class with assassin's promise, your doing something wrong.

I run a p/a ap build and my only problem is maybe if I cast repeatedly enough that I have to wait 2-3 seconds to cast another 10 energy spell after ap.

You just have to manage your casts a bit. I reduce my casts to ap, you move like a dwarf, then assassin support or pain inverter. Then wait for ap to give me my energy and repeat.

As a monk, using ap. You should be running protect with aegis. You can infinitely chain aegis in battle with ap and thus reduce your damage by a ton against physicals.

AtomicMew · Nov 08, 2008, 01:33 AM // 01:33

[QUOTE=Masao;4341527]My build runs with 30 minions depending on the area. Read my post.
You didn't originally state a 30 minion build, and then later changed your stance when I called u out on it. Also: triple MM are terribly bad builds. Gee I wonder who said that.

Quote:

Number of other skills heroes have doesn't matter, since the majority are long recharge time. .

Yes like death nova, feast of the dead, prot spirit,MBaS, spirit lightenfeebling blood, barbs, weaken armor are so long recharge. Oh wait not. Oh wait, over half your skills BESIDES discord are short recharging.

Quote:

Hex/Condition primer takes 3/4 of a second to cast, Discord takes 1 second to cast, Finish Him! to seal the kill is instant.

Discord doesn't even recharge fast enough for you to be able to kill once every 2 seconds. Just admit you are wrong... seriously. It IS very fast, so fast that it seems faster than it actually is. Creating minions take time, and you have 2 of them.... Realistically, it's like every 4-6 seconds depending. You seem to think that ur pro since you can easily vanquish an area with stupid amounts of bodies with triple necro and 3x MM (lol).

In case you didn't know, you can't spec Soul Reaping on a monk.

Quote:

The entire point of Discordway is to make VQing easy for any class of character who has 3 Necro heroes. My main is a monk. This has nothing to do with having a Necro or Mesmer main. There is no better e-management for a Mo/A running Discordway than Castigation Signet.

Wow missing the point entirely. I'm just going to copasta what I've already typed since you apparently don't read. "Note that I'm not even saying discordway + monk is bad - I'm just saying it's inferior, as monk primary brings nothing to the table compared to necro or even mesmer. Hence, you are forced to use **** like castigation signet."

Masao · Nov 08, 2008, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

My build runs with 30 minions depending on the area. Read my post.
You didn't originally state a 30 minion build, and then later changed your stance when I called u out on it. Also: triple MM are terribly bad builds. Gee I wonder who said that.

The thing is, it's not triple MM. Minions are solely used to bodyblock. Out of the three Necros, only one is a dedicated MM.

Not a contradiction, because throwing a single skill to use corpses doesn't make a character into an archtype.

Throwing a Well on a character doesn't make it a Wells, now does it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Yes like death nova, feast of the dead, prot spirit,MBaS, spirit lightenfeebling blood, barbs, weaken armor are so long recharge. Oh wait not. Oh wait, over half your skills BESIDES discord are short recharging.

For one, you can key a Hero skill to cast immediately on recharge.

Second, 9/21 isn't over half. Bone Minions realistically shouldn't even count seeing as it activates only when there is a corpse around. Also, after the first mob dies, it generally takes only one cast of Discord and Finish Him! to kill the rest since they've already taken a hit from one of the other AoE spells specced on a Necro.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Discord doesn't even recharge fast enough for you to be able to kill once every 2 seconds. Just admit you are wrong... seriously. It IS very fast, so fast that it seems faster than it actually is. Creating minions take time, and you have 2 of them.... Realistically, it's like every 4-6 seconds depending. You seem to think that ur pro since you can easily vanquish an area with stupid amounts of bodies with triple necro and 3x MM (lol).

I've timed it myself. It takes 4-5 seconds to take out the first mob by keying Discord on all three heroes then prepping the target. After that it's pretty much mop-up if the entire group was clustered, if not then it still takes very little time as minions will have already moved in within 3 seconds.

Where are you getting that I think I'm pro? It's PvE for Christ's sake, everyone is a pro at it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

In case you didn't know, you can't spec Soul Reaping on a monk.

Glad to see you finally understand that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Wow missing the point entirely. I'm just going to copasta what I've already typed since you apparently don't read. "Note that I'm not even saying discordway + monk is bad - I'm just saying it's inferior, as monk primary brings nothing to the table compared to necro or even mesmer. Hence, you are forced to use **** like castigation signet."

Read your prior posts. You kept alluding to the fact that there was better e-management on a Mo/A than Castigation Signet, and now you're grasping for straws to make yourself not look like a complete tool.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

As a monk, using ap. You should be running protect with aegis. You can infinitely chain aegis in battle with ap and thus reduce your damage by a ton against physicals.

I've done testing with Aegis/PS/other prots.

There's absolutely no point, seeing as it is very rare that a physical will get past minions to hit you and the rest of your casters.

Energy management also becomes a major problem when spamming Aegis. I highly suggest against even considering using Aegis on a monk when running Discordway.

EDIT2:

This has gone from a Sabway vs. Discordway thread to bitching about the technicalities of Discordway.

Therefore, I'll end this here. It's quite clear that I've proven my point, and that no amount of evidence will convince you to change your mindset that anything other than a Necromancer main is inferior to the point of unusability when running a Discord team.

If you wish to continue to debate with me, please take it to PM. There I'll expect at least somewhat more maturity than I've been seeing in this thread.

MercenaryKnight · Nov 08, 2008, 07:04 AM // 07:04

Discordway is preferred as long as you can easily bring assassin's promise and you move like a dwarf. Every other skill you bring along is optional and helpful.

If I was in a hard area with discord way and a monk I would have them cast ap, ymlad and aegis chain if there were hm physicals. If not then bring vanguard sin and finish him.

Sabway is decent if you can't run discord but still discord should be used in every other situation.

Masao · Nov 08, 2008, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

Discordway is preferred as long as you can easily bring assassin's promise and you move like a dwarf. Every other skill you bring along is optional and helpful.

If I was in a hard area with discord way and a monk I would have them cast ap, ymlad and aegis chain if there were hm physicals. If not then bring vanguard sin and finish him.

Sabway is decent if you can't run discord but still discord should be used in every other situation.

You have 8 slots anyway. All you need on any class of character is EVAS, FH!, YMLaD!, AP, some form of e-management, and three optionals.

More often than not, the one copy of Aegis on a hero is enough to deal with physical aggro break.

As for Mo/A, I stand by reasoning that Aegis is bad for energy reasons. In Ranger heavy areas, I agree that it is a fairly good option to spec it into your bar, if you can put some points into Prot, but aside from that situation you're better off focusing on keeping your energy up. FH! is far too broken to not have energy to cast because you decided to maintain Aegis instead.

Super Igor · Nov 08, 2008, 02:38 PM // 14:38

I dont like Discordway because I find it ugly very ugly build hence c-spacing with sabway gives a better feeling

kai4321 · Nov 08, 2008, 03:04 PM // 15:04

For the people saying that PvX has bad builds for Sabway and Discordway, can you send me a link to a good build for them or tell me some?

Also, my second question is; what skills would I really need to run discordway in NM? I mean in PvX it has quite like 4 that they say are necessary, but the problem is that I don't have all of them, for now I may be able to get YMLaW and Finish Him.

Xenomortis · Nov 08, 2008, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai4321

Also, my second question is; what skills would I really need to run discordway in NM? I mean in PvX it has quite like 4 that they say are necessary, but the problem is that I don't have all of them, for now I may be able to get YMLaW and Finish Him.

YMLaD and Finish Him are the most useful skills. Ebon Assassin isn't really necessary, but nice to help kill off a target.
Otherwise, anything that can be cast quickly and fulfills the condition of Discord. You must have Assassin's Promise really. Enfeeble is nice, it has a quick cast time and is quite cheap. Your heroes should also be able to lay down some AoE hexes and conditions.

AtomicMew · Nov 08, 2008, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masao

Second, 9/21 isn't over half.

You must not be able to count 15/21.

Quote:

Where are you getting that I think I'm pro? .

You: bragging about VQ dalada, when it's obvious any triple nec will walk in the park the area lol. You: calling others terribly-bad for usage of a skill you think is subpar.

Quote:

Therefore, I'll end this here. It's quite clear that I've proven my point, and that no amount of evidence will convince you to change your mindset that anything other than a Necromancer main is inferior to the point of unusability when running a Discord team.

If you wish to continue to debate with me, please take it to PM. There I'll expect at least somewhat more maturity than I've been seeing in this thread.

The only thing you've proven is that you're incapable of admitting when you are wrong about things that are even just factually incorrect....
Examples:
-you said most of your hero skills consisted of long recharging.
-you said you could kill ever 2 seconds in more difficult areas ur not gonna be running around with 30 minions.

Finally, you are by far the most immature person here. Examples: "If ur too stupid to understand this I dunno w" "people who use X or Y are terribly bad" "...look like a complete tool". Yes, you have been reeeeal mature. It' just so transparent.

Finally, if you want to show ur mature, just admit you were wrong on those points mentioned above. It is okay that you don't like/use RF as it's not an essential skill just like weaken armor is not essential.

Masao · Nov 08, 2008, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai4321

For the people saying that PvX has bad builds for Sabway and Discordway, can you send me a link to a good build for them or tell me some?

Also, my second question is; what skills would I really need to run discordway in NM? I mean in PvX it has quite like 4 that they say are necessary, but the problem is that I don't have all of them, for now I may be able to get YMLaW and Finish Him.

AP is necessary, YMLaD! is pretty much necessary. FH! and EVAS aren't required but by far the most useful skills to have.

For normal mode, just roll the first four skills on your character and just Discord on your heroes, then add four henches. Nothing is more fun than finishing NM with a half empty bar and heroes one-skilling. xD

Standing by my last post I won't feed the trolls.

MercenaryKnight · Nov 08, 2008, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masao

You have 8 slots anyway. All you need on any class of character is EVAS, FH!, YMLaD!, AP, some form of e-management, and three optionals.

More often than not, the one copy of Aegis on a hero is enough to deal with physical aggro break.

As for Mo/A, I stand by reasoning that Aegis is bad for energy reasons. In Ranger heavy areas, I agree that it is a fairly good option to spec it into your bar, if you can put some points into Prot, but aside from that situation you're better off focusing on keeping your energy up. FH! is far too broken to not have energy to cast because you decided to maintain Aegis instead.

Something is WRONG WITH YOU. 12 deadly arts, is 17 energy minus 5 from casting ap. Then 10 with you move like a dwarf. Is still a net worth of 2 energy. I understand that you like to hit finish him as well on every single enemy, but to me that is a waste when they die quickly enough as it is. Then you end up wasting time forcing extra energy management which will slow down more chains.

I can cast assassin's promise, then ymlad on a paragon with 2 energy pips and watch the enemy die with nothing else needed by me nonstop.

If you need additional energy management, besides assassin's promise you are doing something very wrong/ spamming too much.

Not to mention all the casters have 4 energy pips and thus they will regain more energy during casting/ waiting for the monster to die in a couple of seconds.

Instead of bringing more pointless energy management skills, you should focus on how to work your chain so that you will have all the energy you need through assassin's promise and natural regen.

I only have problems if I cast ap, ymlad and sin about 5 times in a row with 2 energy regen. I use a high energy staff and get like 50 or so energy. Then all I have to do is use assassin's promise on one already conditioned/ nearly dead enemy and gain back enough energy to start over.

If your not playing any place hard with a lot of heavy physicals then aegis spamming is pointless. But when you need it, a monk can easily pull off casting ap, ymlad and aegis nonstop as long as you don't waste casts on other skills. If you run low, you minimize your casting to just Assassin's promise on a foe with a condition already and bam, 12 free energy right there.

Finish him usually isn't required. They will die quick enough so knocking off 2-4 seconds doesn't quite do as much as effectively protecting a party from physical damage. Then again, that is only if your actually playing in a hard mode/ difficult area where your minions will go down in a second/ don't even have minions.

Masao · Nov 08, 2008, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

Something is WRONG WITH YOU. 12 deadly arts, is 17 energy minus 5 from casting ap. Then 10 with you move like a dwarf. Is still a net worth of 2 energy. I understand that you like to hit finish him as well on every single enemy, but to me that is a waste when they die quickly enough as it is. Then you end up wasting time forcing extra energy management which will slow down more chains.

Sure, they die fast enough but FH! is an instant kill on nearly every mob for me at R10 Norn.

It's mostly a matter of preference, but I'd much rather run e-management over Aegis when the benefit of Aegis will be minimal, and in most situations utterly useless.

Also, use of Aegis would require energy management skills in the first place seeing as it would be a net loss of 13 energy per cast.

Sure, this would result in breaking even with a slight gain if all you do is cast Aegis once every 10 seconds and AP + YMLaD! on every mob, but FH! will help you roll groups faster than simple protting will.

I prefer speed over extra protection simply because my time is worth more than a lower chance of dying, when the probability of a single death, much less a party wipe, is next to nothing to begin with.

Daesu · Nov 09, 2008, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masao

Sure, they die fast enough but FH! is an instant kill on nearly every mob for me at R10 Norn.

It looks like an instant kill to you because FH can only be used on enemies with already half or lower life anyway, while YMLAD doesn't have that serious limitation.