Curse

Silversword22 · Nov 14, 2008, 04:57 PM // 16:57

*gets popcorn and watches the fireworks*

Super Igor · Nov 14, 2008, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

Id could join the contest but i left my microscope at home.

You need to get better at this game before you can enter the contest daze.

On a similar note, was it you who suggested br on pvx discordway build page? Made people lol.

MercenaryKnight · Nov 14, 2008, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Add in SoA, and then depending on the area and party - hex/condition removal. That's all the prot you need.
I never denied that - I actually said that.

The only part I don't like is stating that hex/ condition removal is worthwhile. Conditions and hexes generally in pve never have such damaging affects, especially against a discordway team. Of course, if your not running 6 discord necromancers, then you may need some additional hex/ condition removers. But for a 6 discord hero team it is mostly pointless. If you run 2 restoration n/rits. One brings recovery, thus reducing condition durations and both have mbas which will remove a condition.

Hexes in pve, are pretty much never needed to remove. Exception of course is fow with all the spiteful spirits and what not. The problem with hexes in pve monster's skill bars is that. If you actually need hex removal, your going to need to load up so much of it. Because monsters will spam hex upon hex. Thus resulting in half the heroes time being spent on removing hexes which for the most part don't affect you much.

Heroes can't prioritize a backfire vs a parasitic bond to remove. Thus, instead of bothering with them trying to remove hexes which will never remove the ones needed. Just heal through them and let them expire.

So, theres not really a whole lot of things you can add after you have reliable heals and protection skills. Already have condition removal (even though conditions don't damage/ affect discordway except dazed which is hardly in most of pve) and hexes will be spammed so much that focusing 3+ skills on hex removal to get them all off is a waste.

That seems to be the problem with making the best variant. There really is nothing needed besides heals, protective spirit, aegis and maybe soa (excluding of course, your hex and condition requirement such as enfeebling blood and shadow of fear). The rest can be blank or filled with whatever you feel like adding on personal preference.

Super Igor · Nov 14, 2008, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

Ill go against my suggestion to not feed the trolls. Yes i put br in my discordway build. Br is 1 out of 48 skills to make up a discordway team (hardly enough to make a team build "bad". And dude, just some advice it is pretty pathetic that you jump out of nowhere to insult and throw flames, especially when the only ammo you have is a difference of opinion about BR.

Nowhere is a wrong word to use, Im all over the campfire if you havent noticed.

Lets face it, you aint less of a troll than I am. BR, its funny when you give necroes with unlimited energy even more energy management and its bad, we discussed it.

Quote:

and No, you fail at your flames but you succeed at misquoting. I didnt recommend that BR be put on the PvX page (different thread). But in the future, try to keep your posts relevant to the current thread.

See? Ure baiting here, gj. :3

I've been to pvx today, saw an IP that been reverted in d-way's edit history, and it's edit summary was that it added BR because "eles have problems with energy even at 80+ energy" or something. Was similar to what you claimed for a reason to bring br for your ele daggerspammer...
Turns out there are more people like you or theres actually someone who takes your suggestions seriously lol, sad tbh.

upier · Nov 14, 2008, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

For NM and easy areas in HM, the hench healers are probably fine, but for areas that would actually pose a challenge, you want more capable healers in your team. A little bird told me that upier tends to stay away from HM.

You are right.
I stay away from GW HM since I consider it to be one of the worst things to be added to PvE.
And just the same way that I don't show my Lightbringer/GWEN titles to receive bonuses - I don't bother with HM unless my help is needed.
A picture of my "title hunter" as evidence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

No it is an extreme representation of what GW PvE is like, so as to cleary demonstrate the deficiencies of the healer henchies compared to N/Rt healers.

Restoration has a generally higher heal/energy ratio than even healing prayers, if you dont take divine favor into account. What restoration lacks most is hex removal which is not necessary in most PvE areas, since with a higher heal/energy ratio + soul reaping (fueled further by a minion bomber), a N/Rt can out-heal degen even in Dalada Uplands against the insects that cast Conjure Nightmare among other hexes. You should also try taking Mhenlo+Lina as the only healers into HM Dalada and observe how they perform against strong degen over there.

The required protection skills like PS and Aegis are already covered in a typical discordway/sabway. If you have extra skill slots, you can add SoA and a hex removal. But healing may just be the most important role in a PvE team. Too important to be handed over fully to a runeless hench.

But - just for you:

The degen wasn't an issue in the slightest.
The biggest problem was that my guys loved to stand in Firestorms/Showers.
So I am guessing your monk hench must be broken?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

That seems to be the problem with making the best variant. There really is nothing needed besides heals, protective spirit, aegis and maybe soa (excluding of course, your hex and condition requirement such as enfeebling blood and shadow of fear). The rest can be blank or filled with whatever you feel like adding on personal preference.

That's the reason why I like Protection.
When you have 3 guys running Prot - you have some of the coolest skills in the game and at the same time the skills do not distract the hero from spamming Discord. 3 guys with Aegis - you have a 50% chance to be missed at all times - yet each of the guys casts it only once every 30 secs. The same thing with multiple PSs. And then you add hex/condition removal. Not because it would be vital - but because you have room, removing a hex/condition is helpful (despite not being crucial) and it doesn't distract the necro from Discord spammage. Whereas if you go resto - you waste 10 ranks worth of attribute points and you have PwK, one Life per party and then you are pretty much done since if you add heals the guys will prioritize on the heals rather then Discord spammage.
Which means you'd want skills that do not distract the necro from spamming Discord yet at the same time aren't wasted slots due to just adding skills that have insanely long recharges to prevent the issue from arising.
That's why I run prot or something like wards. Superb effect and the guys aren't distracted by them.

Super Igor · Nov 14, 2008, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

Nonsense, i enjoy an intelligent respectful discussion but (and im not trying to offend you) but with you throwing around insults and disrespectful comments, its hard to carry one.

Yet the first thing I see you doing is flaming PvX as if it actually matters topping it with baiting, gj.

Quote:

And contrary to what you may think, I dont think BR should be in the wiki for discordway, because the only time i bring it is when i run a build with no/minimal e-management. So finally, can you give it a rest? Im sure people will take you much more seriously if you stop resorting to immature behavior and start throwing around a little more respect. Because respect is something you have to give to get back.

Attack the age when you have nothing more to say? Imo, more people talk about maturity the more immature they really are, this conclusion fits you well.
As for respect, why dont you start?

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I stay away from GW HM since I consider it to be one of the worst things to be added to PvE.

I knew it!

MercenaryKnight · Nov 14, 2008, 11:01 PM // 23:01

I agree with you upier, I guess my "argument" was from the fact that I run 6 discord necromancers whenever I do anything hard. Because I hardly ever hero/hench. So yes, if you were hero/henching of course monks are the first thing you bring for the hench.

However, for the people who run 6 discords then n/rit with restoration is the best we can get. N/mo healer can work, but they rely on word of healing as the elite and thus is one less discord you can bring.

So yeah, for everyone who is hero/henching, let the 2 monk hench focus on the healing and the heroes focus on discord/ support.

daze · Nov 14, 2008, 11:26 PM // 23:26

But i give up, im going to delete all of my pervious posts in where i get dragged into a sad argument. But on a side note.

[build=Curser with shambling;OAhkUsG6hGGUMTVlColA70uzRVyF]
[build=Hex remove heal;OANDUrptSxMVVKgGNTftERgyEA]
[build=Minion master;OABDQatmSxMVVVBoBLCKVJgdCA]
[build=Prot with shambling;OANDUrpvSxMVVKgHVBE1D3VyEA]
[build=Restore life;OAhjUoGYIPxsqaGbcKNHmTuLGA]
[build=Restore recovery;OAhjUoGYIPxsqKxjaLNHmTuLGA]

I ran this in FoW and cleared it faster than i have ever done before.. I ran it on 2 computers, my AP ele on my main, and my SS necro on my other. I gave the necro more condition applications because the heros are kinda lacking in it. [enfeebling blood][weaken armor][rip enchantment] are the condition skills my necro used.

i was thinking of swapping out a [discord] for a [virulence] just to make it a bit more condition heavy.

Id like to thank Tyla for his suggestions.

Daesu · Nov 15, 2008, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Upier, you do know that vanquishing doesn't really prove anything nowadays right? -55DP pop in a powerstone and behold, everyone in the team has 10% morale boost! Furthermore, that area has a siege for you to use if you want to cheat. So I have never asked anyone to prove a build by proving vanquishing, I only asked you to try it out between a hench healer and a restore healer.

Anyway, it looks like your heroes have all died before since they would ended with morale boosts from the bosses there if they hadn't. I believed I had better results when I vanquished long time ago, without even using the siege.

AtomicMew · Nov 15, 2008, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Upier, you do know that vanquishing doesn't really prove anything nowadays right? -55DP pop in a powerstone and behold, everyone in the team has 10% morale boost! Furthermore, that area has a siege for you to use if you want to cheat. So I have never asked anyone to prove a build by proving vanquishing, I only asked you to try it out between a hench healer and a restore healer.

Anyway, it looks like your heroes have all died before since they would ended with morale boosts from the bosses there if they hadn't. I believed I had better results when I vanquished long time ago, without even using the siege.

Dying doesn't really prove anything either. It's very easy to die almost anywhere by rushing, not pulling a HUGE mob or being ambushed from behind by a patrol.

If he used a resto instead, I honestly doubt he'd experience much different results. Playing smart >>>>>> than using one or the other. From my experience (and I've tried both ways) I honestly can't tell the difference in defensive abilities between the two.

upier · Nov 15, 2008, 08:40 AM // 08:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

So I have never asked anyone to prove a build by proving vanquishing, I only asked you to try it out between a hench healer and a restore healer.

I actually entered the map twice.
The first time - and having vanquished half the map with that team, before running into Charr - I managed to forget to add Mhenlo.
Which means our ONLY source of healing was Linas DF bonus, Dismiss Condition, Cure Hex, Zealous Benediction and the self-healing skills that hench carry.
The heavy degen guys that you asked to be used as proving ground were as easy as anything else I had played against.
Basically I went against them with NO healer and you are saying that two monk hench aren't good enough and you need to take a hero that does the healing instead?
Keep in ming that that was achieved by a guy that pretty much never does HM. Imagine the godly results if a pro would do it instead!

Seriously - if Mhenlo and Lina do not provide sufficient healing there - you're doing it wrong.

(And yes, we did die a few times. Like I said - Firestor/Shower is too much for the AI to handle, Molotov surprised us, Aiden loved being obstructed and the idea to actually take down the Dominators first hit me WAAAAY to late. But we used your heavy degen guys to remove the DP instead of them being the testing grounds.)

upier · Nov 15, 2008, 01:16 PM // 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

i was thinking of swapping out a [discord] for a [virulence] just to make it a bit more condition heavy.

Don't bother.
Virulence is single target - outside of Disease - and requires the target to already be under a condition. Which means the condition-requirement for Discord is already fulfilled thus by running Virulence you just add further conditions on the same target. Which isn't needed - but the fact that this takes up your elite slot and has a 15 sec recharge, actually hurts you since this means you can't run a better elite.
If you need more conditions - just throw Enfeeble on a few bars - it recharges insanely fast and has a superb cast time. Plus even with next to 0 in Curses - lasts long enough to nuke the target with Discord. (I actually prefer it to Enfeebling Blood.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

I agree with you upier, I guess my "argument" was from the fact that I run 6 discord necromancers whenever I do anything hard. Because I hardly ever hero/hench. So yes, if you were hero/henching of course monks are the first thing you bring for the hench.

However, for the people who run 6 discords then n/rit with restoration is the best we can get. N/mo healer can work, but they rely on word of healing as the elite and thus is one less discord you can bring.

So yeah, for everyone who is hero/henching, let the 2 monk hench focus on the healing and the heroes focus on discord/ support.

Here is the thing I am wondering - if you run 6 necros - does it even make sense to bring Discord on all of the guys?
I mean if you run AP+YMLD!+FH! + some 4 Discords - that will kill most of the things because that's some 600 damage. The two guys that are healers (be it resto or healing) thus free up some 10+ attribute ranks worth of points by not going Discord. And those can then be wasted on additional lines or to just improve the main attributes.
Especially since you want the healers to heal - and when they are healing they aren't nuking.
It seems like a wasted attribute line/elite on these guys.

daze · Nov 15, 2008, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Don't bother.
Virulence is single target - outside of Disease - and requires the target to already be under a condition. Which means the condition-requirement for Discord is already fulfilled thus by running Virulence you just add further conditions on the same target. Which isn't needed - but the fact that this takes up your elite slot and has a 15 sec recharge, actually hurts you since this means you can't run a better elite.
If you need more conditions - just throw Enfeeble on a few bars - it recharges insanely fast and has a superb cast time. Plus even with next to 0 in Curses - lasts long enough to nuke the target with Discord. (I actually prefer it to Enfeebling Blood.)

Here is the thing I am wondering - if you run 6 necros - does it even make sense to bring Discord on all of the guys?
I mean if you run AP+YMLD!+FH! + some 4 Discords - that will kill most of the things because that's some 600 damage. The two guys that are healers (be it resto or healing) thus free up some 10+ attribute ranks worth of points by not going Discord. And those can then be wasted on additional lines or to just improve the main attributes.
Especially since you want the healers to heal - and when they are healing they aren't nuking.
It seems like a wasted attribute line/elite on these guys.

It was just a thought, i was thinking of a way to counter condition removal by stacking conditions on the enemies. maybe id be better off kicking a hero for an air ele.

upier · Nov 15, 2008, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

It was just a thought, i was thinking of a way to counter condition removal by stacking conditions on the enemies. maybe id be better off kicking a hero for an air ele.

Meh - I'd start by dumping SolS on a few guys and adding Enfeebling/Weaken.
They don't really need additional e-management - and those skills don't really need a high investment into Curses.

And I'd certainly raise the MM's Death attribute to 12. And also remove Death Nova of him - put it one of the other guys since this guy should be spamming Minions - and that way you have multiple things going on at the same time rather then waiting for Animate to finish and then go into a Death Nova frenzy.

Daesu · Nov 15, 2008, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Traversc, we are talking about builds, not how to vanquish. Vanquishing is dead easy, and we have all done that before many times over that it is boring to talk about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The heavy degen guys that you asked to be used as proving ground were as easy as anything else I had played against.

Like I said, I have never asked for any proof. Since I have also vanquished the same area before that doesn't mean prot is better than restore now does it?

Quote:

Seriously - if Mhenlo and Lina do not provide sufficient healing there - you're doing it wrong.

Yes Mhenlo and Lina do not provide sufficient healing for most of the harder areas in the game.

Would I be able to vanquish Dalada with just Mhenlo and Lina? Of course, because vanquishing is easy with all the tricks in pve that I have mentioned. But you would have obtained better results and kept your heroes alive if you have a better healer. From your screenshot, it shows that you had experience at least a team wipe or all your heroes had died before while vanquishing that area.

upier · Nov 15, 2008, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Traversc, we are talking about builds, not how to vanquish. Vanquishing is dead easy, and we have all done that before many times over that it is boring to talk about it.

Like I said, I have never asked for any proof. Since I have also vanquished the same area before that doesn't mean prot is better than restore now does it?

Yes Mhenlo and Lina do not provide sufficient healing for most of the harder areas in the game.

Would I be able to vanquish Dalada with just Mhenlo and Lina? Of course, because vanquishing is easy with all the tricks in pve that I have mentioned. But you would have obtained better results and kept your heroes alive if you have a better healer. From your screenshot, it shows that you had experience at least a team wipe or all your heroes had died before while vanquishing that area.

If the player has access to only 3 heroes - then the player must make a compromise. Had I made one of the heroes a restorer - my damage output would have dropped. Because that guy would be restoring instead of nuking.
If the guys aren't nuking - things aren't dying.
And if things aren't dying - those things do damage.
Which means even more restoring is needed.

Would I like a better healer?
Of course - that is why I would LOVE it if they would provide us with the ability to use all hero parties. But till then - monk hench will need to do because other hench perform worse. I'd rather fill other roles with heroes then wasting it on healing - a role that the hench perform sufficiently.

Pretty much the only way the wipes would have been prevented is if the hero AI is programmed differently when it comes to reacting to AoE.

Daesu · Nov 15, 2008, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If the player has access to only 3 heroes - then the player must make a compromise. Had I made one of the heroes a restorer - my damage output would have dropped. Because that guy would be restoring instead of nuking.
If the guys aren't nuking - things aren't dying.
And if things aren't dying - those things do damage.
Which means even more restoring is needed.

That is why we bind discord to key presses if we want faster damage. Heroes dont heal if you already have max life, otherwise they would be healing all the time even without enemies. But in situations where the team is in trouble, is when the dual restore N/Rt healers start to pay off. If I need more hex removal in an area, I would convert one of them to a N/Mo.

Since all 3 necro heroes carry discord, you are not lacking in the damage department because you only need to spam discord to kill anything, once you have the curse and condition on your target.

Which henchies do I usually bring? Herta for wards (always), Zho for interrupts (almost always), Cynn for AoE (useful to confuse melee attackers), and either Mhenlo or a tank (with protective shouts) depending on the situation. I use the henchies for protection one way or another. You complained about heroes standing in firestorm, but guess what, monster AI has the same problem so I use Cynn and Herta (with Sandstorm) to turn the tables right back at them.

Quote:

Would I like a better healer?
Of course - that is why I would LOVE it if they would provide us with the ability to use all hero parties. But till then - monk hench will need to do because other hench perform worse. I'd rather fill other roles with heroes then wasting it on healing - a role that the hench perform sufficiently.

Pretty much the only way the wipes would have been prevented is if the hero AI is programmed differently when it comes to reacting to AoE.

I dont want to say that your way cant work because it can, but typical sabway and discordway simply use huge heals to handle hexes and conditions in most areas. They are more fool proof. Since you lack that, you have to plan your build more carefully depending on the area. For example, if there are more hexes, you need to bring more hex removal to counter Mhenlo's sucky healing. If there are more casters, then you may want to get rid of one of your dual Aegis for something else. If there are more life steals, think of something else. Healing on the other hand, is more universal.

upier · Nov 15, 2008, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

But in situations where the team is in trouble, is when the dual restore N/Rt healers start to pay off. If I need more hex removal in an area, I would convert one of them to a N/Mo.

Since all 3 necro heroes carry discord, you are not lacking in the damage department because you only need to spam discord to kill anything, once you have the curse and condition on your target.

That's my issue.
Once the team starts getting into trouble the heroes turn into healers. And when they are healing - they aren't spamming Discord.
Because these guys can be either damage dealers or healers - but not both at the same time.
And if one goes down - you not only lost a healer you also lost one of your best damage dealers.

Btw - are you running a SY! guy with that?
Or a simple caster?

Daesu · Nov 16, 2008, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

That's my issue.
Once the team starts getting into trouble the heroes turn into healers. And when they are healing - they aren't spamming Discord.

If they die they are not going to be spamming Discord either, so healing is important when you really need to heal. The issue here is where should the balance of offense vs defense be and heroes dont always agree on the same balance as you do. So binding Discord to key presses is useful.

Quote:

Because these guys can be either damage dealers or healers - but not both at the same time.
And if one goes down - you not only lost a healer you also lost one of your best damage dealers.

Btw - are you running a SY! guy with that?
Or a simple caster?

I can run this with either a physical character or caster character. Although on my SY! character I will switch the curse N/Rt into channeling for splinter weapon, so I have only one restoration healer like in sabway.

The build in your screenshot seems customized to the area. You brought 2 cure hexes (even though you didnt bring any other healing prayer skills) and 2 minion masters knowing that the area has lots of exploitable corpses and degen hexes. As for me, I usually use a generic build like sabway or discordway and still managed to vanquish Dalada without bringing a single hex removal other than Mhenlo's sucky deny hexes.

MercenaryKnight · Nov 16, 2008, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Don't bother.
Here is the thing I am wondering - if you run 6 necros - does it even make sense to bring Discord on all of the guys?
I mean if you run AP+YMLD!+FH! + some 4 Discords - that will kill most of the things because that's some 600 damage. The two guys that are healers (be it resto or healing) thus free up some 10+ attribute ranks worth of points by not going Discord. And those can then be wasted on additional lines or to just improve the main attributes.
Especially since you want the healers to heal - and when they are healing they aren't nuking.
It seems like a wasted attribute line/elite on these guys.

I could devote another elite to healing. However, you also have to accept that since I add extra hexes and conditions (enfeebling blood and shadow of fear). Plus the minion bomber is usually casting death nova/ minions/ aegis/ protective spirit instead of focusing on discord. The healer usually is the first hero at the start of the battle to discord. Because no health has been lost so they can be free to add another 90 damage while the other necro's get distracted by minions or cursing.

Restoration elites are lackluster, weapon of remedy is only used mainly for conditions. Xinrae's weapon is something the ai can't use as a pre-protect. I could make them have word of healing and use monk healing spells, however a free bonus 90-100 damage for an elite which really can't be replaced and have too much of an effect.

I agree, that it may be "overkill" but when your fighting bosses or multiple monks who keep healing, the extra discords are what pushes the enemy over the edge. Plus, with all the minions tanking the healers can get off a few discords before we start taking damage.

The healers, will focus on healing when needed and will aid in the insane damage as needed. I play in a lot of hardmode areas and especially with all the vanquishing, it helps a lot against bosses as well as the areas where there are a few 3-5 healers. I do also run finish him and my friend runs pain inverter as well as another ap nuker.

We completed 4 or so kurzick vanquishes this weekend in about 35-45 minutes with our discordway build. Ferndale, Eternal Grove and a few others. Only one or two deaths throughout all the vanquishes, because of a hard hitting boss and the heroes were slow to cast.