Curse

FoxBat · Jun 03, 2009, 05:38 AM // 05:38

Racway was MADE for imbagons, I don't see why you even consider evaluating it without that. He said up front the reason he doesn't bring prot or minions is he has SY to handle the job.

Daesu · Jun 03, 2009, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Racway was MADE for imbagons, I don't see why you even consider evaluating it without that. He said up front the reason he doesn't bring prot or minions is he has SY to handle the job.

The problem is, SY doesn't mitigate all forms of damage and it is also useless against hexes. Minions provide close to AoE form of damage (which the pvx version of the build sorely lacks), especially with Death Nova, and they soak up attacks (including hexes and conditions) at the same time.

SY alone, can't easily replace the benefits of having minions.

faraaz · Jun 03, 2009, 06:40 AM // 06:40

Quote:

Racway was MADE for imbagons, I don't see why you even consider evaluating it without that. He said up front the reason he doesn't bring prot or minions is he has SY to handle the job.

Prot spirit limits ALL armor ignoring Damage...so does SoA, reversal of damage etc...SY! does not.

Smiteway, Discordway, Sabway...all are meant to be used with ANY primary profession character, one of the reasons why they are so popular. By saying that Racway must ONLY be evaluated when used by a primary Imbagon, you are going to sound incredibly naive. If that is the case, you must then accept that it is a niche, subpar build which is inferior to the more universally applicable team builds.

upier · Jun 03, 2009, 06:41 AM // 06:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Sure it's sturdier than triple necro ,but it's much, much slower. The very fact that there is no MM in racway should make this point painfully obvious.

Did you just say that the hero MM is there for damage?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I tried replacing the D/N with a fiend MM N/Rt with Splinter Weapon, FF, in Archipelagos HM, and that worked quite well, even with just 1 hex removal.

My 2 Paragon heroes have DA, Cruel Spear, Strength of Honor, Gfte, Fall Back, Anthem of Weariness and Envy, etc. Henchmen taken were Sister Tai, Zho, Kai Ying, and Argo.

The Ebon ward increases the damage of the fiends as well as the paragons. Gfte and Fall Back synergizes with the minions also. Minions provides meat shield, and increased damage.

I am still tweaking it, but the MM goes something like this:

[build prof=N/Rt death=12 sou=8 res=2 cha=10][Aura of the Lich][Animate Bone Fiend][Putrid Bile][Death Nova][Splinter Weapon][Animate Shambling Horror][Foul Feast][Flesh of My Flesh][/build]

Since all my characters are ranged attackers, if I pull carefully, my melee minions will go forward, and soak up attacks, while I stay behind with the fiends and the rest of the party with ebon ward of honor.

The bolded parts made no sense.

As you said - the only reason why minions would be a nice addition is to potentially soak up the hexes. You don't need them for anything else.
And if they don't soak up the hexes - you have a wasted slot. I'd rather just take sufficient hex removal instead.

The best parts of the MM bar you posted in terms of a heavy physical team are Splinter and FF. Everything else is pretty much just included in paragons having 100 AL.

Daesu · Jun 03, 2009, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

As you said - the only reason why minions would be a nice addition is to potentially soak up the hexes. You don't need them for anything else.
And if they don't soak up the hexes - you have a wasted slot. I'd rather just take sufficient hex removal instead.

The best parts of the MM bar you posted in terms of a heavy physical team are Splinter and FF. Everything else is pretty much just included in paragons having 100 AL.

And they DO soak up hexes and attacks but that can't be the only reason why minions are useful since they are also a nice source of damage. SY doesn't provide any AoE damage, minions do with the help of death nova and death nova works best with melee minions.

The problem with 100 AL is that it doesn't stop all forms of damage. People in this game, just overrated SY to be equivalent to "god" mode invincibility. That is just naive.

SY alone can never be a complete replacement for all the benefits provided by minions.

As for the SoH, I used to bring melee henchies for SoH but forgot to take it out when I switched. I dont like the melee AI.

upier · Jun 03, 2009, 09:30 AM // 09:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

And they DO soak up hexes and attacks but that can't be the only reason why minions are useful since they are also a nice source of damage. SY doesn't provide any AoE damage, minions do with the help of death nova and death nova works best with melee minions.

The problem with 100 AL is that it doesn't stop all forms of damage. People in this game, just overrated SY to be equivalent to "god" mode invincibility. That is just naive.

SY alone can never be a complete replacement for all the benefits provided by minions.

Well, there is also TNtF.
Also, keep in mind that the first teams you run into when running minions - you fight them as a team of 7. The MM does nothing. Which means, unless the first teams are super dooper easy, you should be able to do other things without a MM also.
If the MM is really that vital, the first battles before you get your minions up and running, should be insanely hard.
They are not.
And at the same time - the battles AFTER you get your wall up and running aren't that insanely easier to justify potentially running around with just 7 party members.

Minions are completely over-rated for a physical team.
The meat shield that they provide isn't needed and the best thing they do is potentially serve as a magnet for hexes and conditions. And like I said - I'd rather have something that is more reliable for this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

As for the SoH, I used to bring melee henchies for SoH but forgot to take it out when I switched. I dont like the melee AI.

Ahh, ok!

chris1234565 · Jun 03, 2009, 10:05 AM // 10:05

thanks guy i think after what people have said im gonna use my own veriant of discord as not many ppl think this Racway is any good

Daesu · Jun 03, 2009, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Well, there is also TNtF.
Also, keep in mind that the first teams you run into when running minions - you fight them as a team of 7. The MM does nothing. Which means, unless the first teams are super dooper easy, you should be able to do other things without a MM also.
If the MM is really that vital, the first battles before you get your minions up and running, should be insanely hard.
They are not.
And at the same time - the battles AFTER you get your wall up and running aren't that insanely easier to justify potentially running around with just 7 party members.

Minions are completely over-rated for a physical team.
The meat shield that they provide isn't needed and the best thing they do is potentially serve as a magnet for hexes and conditions. And like I said - I'd rather have something that is more reliable for this.

I wont say a MM is vital, just very useful and you get to choose your first battle so not having minions in the first battle is not such a big issue. Otherwise sabway and discordway would not have been so popular.

Even with buffs the weaknesses in pvx racway are:

1) No enchant removal which can be a pain when fighting targets with strong protection spells. Need to adjust the build in some areas.
2) Weak red barring combined with limited hex removal can make it weak against hexes and other armor ignoring attacks. Need to adjust the build in many areas.
3) Only single target, non-armor ignoring physical attack and no AoE attacks.

I think SY is overrated for a physical team.

Just having SY doesn't mean you would survive well without enough red barring in many HM areas. Higher armor doesn't stop all damage, even a physical team needs enough healing in HM.

AtomicMew · Jun 04, 2009, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Did you just say that the hero MM is there for damage?

Yes I did.

Actively: Even minions just auto attacking is ~40 dps, but then there's also combination with barbs, MoP and death nova.

Passively: soaking up shutdown. In discordway, this means your discord healers spend less time removing conditions/hexes and more time discording/MMing.

A single physical will never outdamage a MM up and running.

Thank you for playing!

edit:

Quote:

Also, keep in mind that the first teams you run into when running minions - you fight them as a team of 7. The MM does nothing. Which means, unless the first teams are super dooper easy, you should be able to do other things without a MM also.
If the MM is really that vital, the first battles before you get your minions up and running, should be insanely hard.
They are not.
And at the same time - the battles AFTER you get your wall up and running aren't that insanely easier to justify potentially running around with just 7 party members.

Completely missing the point. And I mean utterly, and completely.

1) First of all, MMs can do all sorts of things besides MM. Prot spirit, aegis, remove hexes, remove conditions.

2) By your same logic, ALL necros are bad because tthey are worse off until the first kill and soul reaping kicks in.

3) The first battle is NEVER the hardest.

4) Lastly, the thing you really need to understand, or else there is no hope for you, MMs are primarily meant to speed things up NOT make a sturdier build! The battles after you get your minions up may not necessarily be "easier" but they are faster, because you get hella less hexes/conditions/damage and your team as a whole can spend more time blowing everything up.

Sure you can make a sturdier build, add in another healer instead, pull carefully and never ever risk dying at all. Me, I'd rather just smash through everything.

Maybe I'll die a bit more often than you. That's acceptable.

In short, I agree with Daesu.

Gigashadow · Jun 04, 2009, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

\
4) Lastly, the thing you really need to understand, or else there is no hope for you, MMs are primarily meant to speed things up NOT make a sturdier build! The battles after you get your minions up may not necessarily be "easier" but they are faster, because you get hella less hexes/conditions/damage and your team as a whole can spend more time blowing everything up.\

This is pretty much the crux of the matter. Devoting 2 skill slots (animate bone fiend + death nova) and 12+2 (or even 10+2) in Death to minions, seems a reasonable overall tradeoff for me in terms of making the run faster, while not really bogging myself down too much if I don't have any minions up for a particular fight (and I don't have Dwayna's Kiss either because I really don't want to crutch on the whole MM/DK synergy THAT much). This is certainly way more true for vanquishing than HM dungeon crawling, as vanquishing is so much easier.

I'm open to suggestions, though. My main reason for trying to come up with something better than minions is that the MM spends most of his time casting Death Nova, and I'm looking to find something else that will help the team kill about as fast. I haven't found it yet though.

I don't, however, think that minions auto-attack for 40 dps on hard mode targets. Level 18 fiends and bone horrors hit for an average of around 27 on level 20 normal mode targets. They also attack random targets, and barbs is by no means guaranteed to be on those. In fact, I was a little surprised when I found out when my curse necro, who has barbs as his most spammable skill, didn't have it up on as many targets as I thought it would be. This reminded me a little bit of the situation with Weaken Armor when he used to have it, which he also didn't spread around as much as I was hoping.

AtomicMew · Jun 04, 2009, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigashadow

I don't, however, think that minions auto-attack for 40 dps on hard mode targets. Level 18 fiends and bone horrors hit for an average of around 27 on level 20 normal mode targets. They also attack random targets, and barbs is by no means guaranteed to be on those. In fact, I was a little surprised when I found out when my curse necro, who has barbs as his most spammable skill, didn't have it up on as many targets as I thought it would be. This reminded me a little bit of the situation with Weaken Armor when he used to have it, which he also didn't spread around as much as I was hoping.

Personally, I use a combination of fiends, minions and the one that makes stuff bleed spread over 2 MMs. Fiends DO attack the same target. Minions are irrelevant, mostly and are just there to blow up and block.

40 DPS is a very, very, very conservative number. With 8 minions up, that's each of them doing 5 DPS. Fiends do ~13 DPS against lvl 20 targets. I cba to figure out how that translates exactly to HM, but I'm pretty sure 5 DPS is pretty damn reasonable.

Axel Zinfandel · Jun 04, 2009, 04:59 AM // 04:59

You don't use minions for damage, you use them to soak up damage.

Unless your bombing said minions.

If you're doing anything else with them, you're doing it wrong

Carinae · Jun 04, 2009, 05:22 AM // 05:22

@SY not protting all damage: The entire party becomes essentially immune to Elemental and Physical damage.

NOT TOO SHABBY FOR ONE SKILL SLOT!

Pretty good bar compression there, even if you count Dark Fury or more than one copy of SY, the effect is incredible and I challenge you to get more bang for your skill-slot-buck.

Will you still want hex removal, condition removal, enchant removal and other utility skills? Yep.

...and now you have room to fit them all in.

Your arguments have now been neutralized.

@everyone: If you are running Orders, then you take henchmen that trigger Orders.

Axe, Sword and/or Hammer hench
Archer (NOT Aidan/Zho except in EotN)
Paragon
Prot/Healer

Aidan, Zho and Dervish hench usually do NOT trigger Orders.

If one of these isn't available, take the Earth hench. If more than one isn't available, do your best or get a friend.

_______
Smiting Orders

13 Blood
11 SR
10 Smiting

Order of Pain
Dark Fury
Empathic Removal
Smite Hex
Smite Condition
Strip Enchantment/Convert Hexes
Masochism
Strength of Honor (disabled)

There's your Orders with heavy hex removal, heavy condition removal and enchantment removal. Problems solved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

A single physical will never outdamage a MM up and running.

Thank you for playing!

That is so wrong it's beyond words.

Onto the rest of your comments:

A single Bone Fiend averages ~14.5 DPS versus 60AL by itself. So, a MM with 10 Fiends averages ~145 DPS.....spread against ALL targets. Assuming a mob size of 6 that comes to ~24.1 DPS per enemy.

That's pressure, not DPS.

That could be more or less doubled with OoU and EBSoH, but hero MM's can't run either of those. Heroes also don't aim for a 10 Fiend army, so the numbers will only go down.

I've run as a human MM (10 Fiend OoU+EBSoH) in a VQ of Morostav with 4 Discord heroes, myself, a human Paragon and a human AP/MoP, and I felt like I was significantly outdamaging all four Discord heroes combined, at least on the minions side of the equasion.

When I (tried) running minions on Racthoh's field trips, I couldn't really keep up, let alone make a significant contribution. The battles were over that fast. By the time I got the minions engaged, everything was within milliseconds of death. Except for Urgoz runs, but that's an MMs playground. I also grant that there were usually several humans in the party.

If minions are speeding up your killing, then you aren't killing as quickly as you could be. I realize that people are limited by the primary professions they are locked into, and Discord offers fair speed with a high chance of success, especially for caster classes.

But outdamage, let alone outrun, a physical team? No way. Not even close.

Daesu · Jun 04, 2009, 06:51 AM // 06:51

The biggest problem I have with SY is that it is so overrated. People call it "god-mode" but if you look at it closely is it really "god-mode"? "God-mode" to me implies invincibility but try taking SY without any healing in most hex heavy areas and tell me if it you still feel it is "god-mode". Because of this "god-mode" mentality many of the SY based builds just do not have enough red barring to be effective in most HM areas when encountering hexes and armor ignoring damages. There is a BIG difference between calling it a good skill versus claiming that having said skill implies "god-mode". SY can also be stopped through many hexes. There is an over-reliance in SY.

Second, I usually dislike dual Orders on a single character because that implies 34%hp sacrifice every 5s or so. Unless you have special provisions for that character, that character would be a "magnet" for spikes because of his low hp.

Pvx racway certainly has the physical damage but it is abit of a paper cannon. The conditions in the area have to be right for it to shine. If you are in a hex heavy area, or an area with lots of armor ignoring damage, multiple aegis, etc. then it tends to fail more often than sabway. You have no PS, or Aegis. You also have no minions to mitigate damage, you dont even have AoE damage and you also dont have any enchant removal. It lacks universality, which is a factor to be considered for rating pvx builds, and like most builds there, the ratings are terribly skewed.

When considering damage number, you should also take the form of damage into account. Does the damage ignore armor? Does it require line of sight? Does it interrupt or cause knockdown? How fast do the skills recharge? Is the damage affected by blocking? When I play a MM, I dont just rely on my minions for damage, I make sure that I am dishing out damage on my own at the same time as my minions are. I would be throwing out MoP and attacking the target with my spear, so just counting my minions DPS would be way off.

Racthoh · Jun 04, 2009, 07:07 AM // 07:07

The biggest issue you'll discover by using the build without a Paragon as the player is the lack of "There's Nothing To Fear!". The additional healing and damage reduction of that one skill becomes obvious when just using "Save Yourselves!" to mitigate. Another problem is the role your character plays. Are you melee, ranged, or healer? Part of the issue with the AI (last time I played anyhow) was their obsession with staying in 'formation', most evident when I used the same builds on my warrior. As I was constantly on the move, especially in hard mode where kiting becomes an issue, the heroes and henchmen would follow behind rarely making any sort of action. You're basically forced to plant a flag before every encounter to ensure this doesn't happen. Not to mention using a melee weapon makes you more susceptible to physical shutdown; swapping to a Wand as a melee physical to avoid things like Blind to maintain "Save Yourselves!" isn't a bad idea.

Playing a healing role with the AI suffers similar issues. You need to call targets to have focused fire and if you need to kite they'll usually come with you. This is also the reason why melee heroes/henchmen are so undesirable because of their ineptitude to stay on target. If however you play a ranged character a lot of the AI issues go away. I always found the easiest way to make hero builds was to make them as simple as possible so the AI couldn't screw up. Necromancer heroes eventually became one of my least favorite to use for Hard Mode because of the fragility of Soul Reaping; unless it was being abused you could wind up in a lot of trouble.

However the build was indeed designed with the Paragon running a specific build in mind. My warrior ran different heroes, my monk ran different heroes. Had I ever found three builds that meshed well with those professions in mind they too would probably fall into the niche. I would argue while there are builds that work well for all 10 there has to be options that appeal better to each of them, something that capitalizes on their individual strengths.

Quote:

Originally Posted by faraaz

Prot spirit limits ALL armor ignoring Damage...so does SoA, reversal of damage etc...SY! does not.

I'm not quite sure I understand the argument here. There aren't going to be situations where the armor ignoring damage is going to overwhelm the heals, especially not when you consider how much damage is being reduced through "Save Yourselves!". Armor ignoring damage isn't going to be delivered with the frequency and size of regular damage, not to the point where red bar skills can't deal with it. The only way it wouldn't be able to handle it would be in AoE form, but were that the case Shield of Absorption, Protective Spirit, or Reversal of Damage (why is that listed exactly?) wouldn't be of much use either. Basically what I'm saying is you can easily red bar what wasn't mitigated through "Save Yourselves!".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

SY alone, can't easily replace the benefits of having minions.

I wouldn't expect it to, it's one skill on one player, not multiple skills on two or more players to fuel an energy engine while providing the backbone for your defense and assisting with the offense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

1) No enchant removal which can be a pain when fighting targets with strong protection spells. Need to adjust the build in some areas.

Spear Swipe, Stunning Strike, change targets. There is no reason you can't unload on one target to draw out those enchantments and then switch onto the caster of those enchantments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

2) Weak red barring combined with limited hex removal can make it weak against hexes and other armor ignoring attacks. Need to adjust the build in many areas.

The healing becomes an issue with the henchmen and their AI, not with the build; Cracked Armor's application with Aggressive Refrain became the most annoying thing in the world as a Paragon when playing Hard Mode. However the fact that it can survive despite henchmen throwing out Blessed Lights/Dismiss Condition/Draw Conditions/Mend Ailment on recharge is a testament to the defense the build showcases.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

3) Only single target, non-armor ignoring physical attack and no AoE attacks.

Order of Pain and Ebon Battle Standard of Honor are a lot of armor ignoring damage. AoE is never necessary outside of The Deep and Urgoz. But again this goes back to the niche design of the build itself where the PvE skills and being a Paragon play a huge factor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

The biggest problem I have with SY is that it is so overrated. People call it "god-mode" but if you look at it closely is it really "god-mode"? "God-mode" to me implies invincibility but try taking SY without any healing in most hex heavy areas and tell me if it you still feel it is "god-mode". Because of this "god-mode" mentality many of the SY based builds just do not have enough red barring to be effective in most HM areas when encountering hexes and armor ignoring damages. There is a BIG difference between calling it a good skill versus claiming that having said skill implies "god-mode".

I agree, it changes the mentality of players for the worse. Personally I started to find the game dull if I wasn't running around with consets all the time and a team loaded with PvE skills. Probably why I almost always favored Paragon to my Monk or Warrior because everything felt like a struggle without the skill.

AtomicMew · Jun 04, 2009, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Quote:

That is so wrong it's beyond words.

Onto the rest of your comments:

A single Bone Fiend averages ~14.5 DPS versus 60AL by itself. So, a MM with 10 Fiends averages ~145 DPS.....spread against ALL targets. Assuming a mob size of 6 that comes to ~24.1 DPS per enemy.

That's pressure, not DPS.

You have never used fiends, have you?

They attack the SAME TARGET. The only time they don't is the time you spawn them. Otherwise they roll in a tight formation and you can easily combo them with barbs/MoP.

Carinae... I'm saying this because I care about people, even if they're anonymous over an internet board (lol). I would like to see you simply admit you are wrong. In Guild Wars, bone fiends simply do not work like the way you described. This isn't the first time you have said something that is just outright impossible and assumed something that is just not the way Guild Wars worked, and at the same time acted like you knew it all. (Like saying how a physical can out DPS a MoP nuker) Show that you are better than what you have previously shown in other threads.

Omgopolis · Jun 04, 2009, 07:18 AM // 07:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Pvx racway certainly has the physical damage but it is abit of a paper cannon. The conditions in the area have to be right for it to shine. If you are in a hex heavy area, or an area with lots of armor ignoring damage, multiple aegis, etc. then it tends to fail more often than sabway. You have no PS, or Aegis. You also have no minions to mitigate damage, you dont even have AoE damage and you also dont have any enchant removal. It lacks universality, which is a factor to be considered for rating pvx builds, and like most builds there, the ratings are terribly skewed.

You have plenty of spare slots to fit hex removal and enchantment removal into the hero builds. With SY and TntF up you don't really need to worry about having PS or Aegis or minions to soak up damage either. It isn't as braindead as loading up the exact same 3 necro builds and winning PvE, because you can't ignore conditions/hexes and still do damage. But if you're willing to put a bit of thought into your team's builds it will work quite nicely. It can be used universally, you just need to tweak skills here and there, which is why no one uses it. People are lazy.

Daesu · Jun 04, 2009, 07:55 AM // 07:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omgopolis

You have plenty of spare slots to fit hex removal and enchantment removal into the hero builds. With SY and TntF up you don't really need to worry about having PS or Aegis or minions to soak up damage either. It isn't as braindead as loading up the exact same 3 necro builds and winning PvE, because you can't ignore conditions/hexes and still do damage. But if you're willing to put a bit of thought into your team's builds it will work quite nicely. It can be used universally, you just need to tweak skills here and there, which is why no one uses it. People are lazy.

Yes I agree and that is also what I have been saying. I tend to feel the need to tweak it more often than using sabway or discordway and if I dont and just stick to the default version in pvx, then I can expect wipes in HM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

The biggest issue you'll discover by using the build without a Paragon as the player is the lack of "There's Nothing To Fear!". The additional healing and damage reduction of that one skill becomes obvious when just using "Save Yourselves!" to mitigate. Another problem is the role your character plays. Are you melee, ranged, or healer? Part of the issue with the AI (last time I played anyhow) was their obsession with staying in 'formation', most evident when I used the same builds on my warrior. ... I would argue while there are builds that work well for all 10 there has to be options that appeal better to each of them, something that capitalizes on their individual strengths.

That makes sense to me.

Quote:

I'm not quite sure I understand the argument here. There aren't going to be situations where the armor ignoring damage is going to overwhelm the heals, especially not when you consider how much damage is being reduced through "Save Yourselves!". Armor ignoring damage isn't going to be delivered with the frequency and size of regular damage, not to the point where red bar skills can't deal with it. The only way it wouldn't be able to handle it would be in AoE form, but were that the case Shield of Absorption, Protective Spirit, or Reversal of Damage (why is that listed exactly?) wouldn't be of much use either. Basically what I'm saying is you can easily red bar what wasn't mitigated through "Save Yourselves!".

This is also related to what I mentioned as having insufficient red barring in the build. Also take into account the huge amount of sac, about every 5s, from the dual Orders D/N that is burdening your heals. SY does nothing to help with that, so I would say in certain areas it is possible for the armor ignoring damage (including degen) to be delivered to the point where red bar skills in the build can't deal with it.

Quote:

Spear Swipe, Stunning Strike, change targets. There is no reason you can't unload on one target to draw out those enchantments and then switch onto the caster of those enchantments.

True but to an extend. The caster maybe casting Aegis before you have a chance to use stunning strike or it can be a monk boss with fast casting condition removal skills, like CoP.

Quote:

Order of Pain and Ebon Battle Standard of Honor are a lot of armor ignoring damage. AoE is never necessary outside of The Deep and Urgoz. But again this goes back to the niche design of the build itself where the PvE skills and being a Paragon play a huge factor.

I was thinking of armor ignoring damages that can't be easily mitigated by counters to physical attacks.

I dont necessarily agree that AoE is not useful outside of The Deep and Urgoz. The fact that Splinter Weapon is so useful in general PvE already shows that.

Racway has its strengths and weaknesses. I appreciate the shout synergies between the paragons and the physical damage is good but I hate the dual orders. I also feel that Orders would belong more to a >= 6-heroes build than a 3-heroes build. I also wish there is more utility and red barring built into it than just relying on Mhenlo. I agree that the build is more niche designed and requires more tweaking to be effective in many areas compared to the usual triple necro builds.

upier · Jun 04, 2009, 09:02 AM // 09:02

Justa few things that I feel weren't already pointed out while I was sleeping.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Yes I did.

Actively: Even minions just auto attacking is ~40 dps, but then there's also combination with barbs, MoP and death nova.

Passively: soaking up shutdown. In discordway, this means your discord healers spend less time removing conditions/hexes and more time discording/MMing.

A single physical will never outdamage a MM up and running.

Thank you for playing!

That's going to be a physical primary. I wouldn't be even bringing up discordway since we all know how poor heroes are with hexes and conditions on their own.

The passive effect of not running around with squishies?
One healer per team. Which means that that more party members will spend their time attacking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Completely missing the point. And I mean utterly, and completely.

1) First of all, MMs can do all sorts of things besides MM. Prot spirit, aegis, remove hexes, remove conditions.

2) By your same logic, ALL necros are bad because they are worse off until the first kill and soul reaping kicks in.

3) The first battle is NEVER the hardest.

4) Lastly, the thing you really need to understand, or else there is no hope for you, MMs are primarily meant to speed things up NOT make a sturdier build! The battles after you get your minions up may not necessarily be "easier" but they are faster, because you get hella less hexes/conditions/damage and your team as a whole can spend more time blowing everything up.

Sure you can make a sturdier build, add in another healer instead, pull carefully and never ever risk dying at all. Me, I'd rather just smash through everything.

Maybe I'll die a bit more often than you. That's acceptable.

In short, I agree with Daesu.

The problem that you fail to see is that ANY necro can do that. And if the necro is spending time cleaning up party members - that means that the wall isn't soaking up bad stuff. Which means you'll still need cleaning tools you'd normally bring. And if they are soaking up stuff - that means no super dooper 40 DPS from them!
Hell, like I said, the more non-squishies you run, the less stuff like Aegis and PS you'll need.

Basically it's either: soak up damage that would get severely reduced through SY+TNtF if it hit party members or do pitiful damage.
That's why I wouldn't go near a MM on a physical team.
Everything a MM does effectively can be easily fit on your bitch of choice. And gain a few slots and attribute points by not wasting it on Death.

And once again, if you are running physicals and taking it slow - then you are doing it wrong. The only time I take it slow is when I've been massively overloaded with hexes and conditions and I need to take time to clean everything up. As anyone that keeps up AR knows.

Gigashadow · Jun 04, 2009, 09:51 AM // 09:51

I was just thinking that after all this debate, I would be really interested in seeing how you guys play. This came to mind because tonight I decided to try doing Vloxen Excavations HM, which I had been dreading doing because of its reputation, and it turned out to be quite easy (due to some good advice from others in the thread about it). So I made a post with some additional info and a video clip.

But I figured, why not post the link here too? Maybe the clips are a little too specific to the dungeon (the build really isn't except for 2 smiting necros instead of my normal just one), but it's got minions, physicals, physical buffs, Save Yourselves, and what I think is some pretty good damage output. Plus now when you see me talk about playstyle you at least see how I play. I'd be interested in seeing how some of you guys play with the builds you're talking about also.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53_0UmnxuNA