Curse

Improvavel · Jul 07, 2009, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Way to completely ignore the REAL issue. E-management takes far less time than it takes for melee to run around.

In one post people talk melee being riskier because enemies hit me, on the next one they tell me they are running away from me.

Please make up your mind!

Either they are standing still hitting me or they are running around fleeing from me.

They don't do like "Mob A and B are hitting me I attack mob A, mob A flees and B follows me trying to hit me, I stop attack mob B, mob B flees and mob A returns".

And mobs like to split into melee hitting me or harassing my backline and casters there.

And that energy management, please post actual SIN CALLER BARS. You know, those that even with rank 16 AP lose 14 energy every 2 seconds, deal minimum 250 damage every 2 secs and even have slots/energy for utility.

rick1027 · Jul 07, 2009, 04:55 AM // 04:55

im not argueing the ap caller being faster ive used it before and seen the results. my arguement goes with why sabway over discord with a physical even with not being an ap caller discord kills things faster then i can with sabway. not trying to knock sabway i like sabway but for speed how can you say sabway works better then discord with physicals

MercenaryKnight · Jul 07, 2009, 04:56 AM // 04:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

In one post people talk melee being riskier because enemies hit me, on the next one they tell me they are running away from me.

Please make up your mind!

Either they are standing still hitting me or they are running around fleeing from me.

They don't do like "Mob A and B are hitting me I attack mob A, mob A flees and B follows me trying to hit me, I stop attack mob B, mob B flees and mob A returns".

And mobs like to split into melee hitting me or harassing my backline and casters there.

And that energy management, please post actual SIN CALLER BARS. You know, those that even with rank 16 AP lose 14 energy every 2 seconds, deal minimum 250 damage every 2 secs and even have slots/energy for utility.

Yet again you don't realize how to run an ap caller. If an enemy can be spiked down within 2-3 seconds with a simple ap and ymlad then your actually even/ better on energy. Finish him and other skills are added bonus. I can run a paragon with 2 bars of energy and ap until my heart's content.

Paul Dawg · Jul 07, 2009, 05:05 AM // 05:05

The part I've highlighted is exactly what DOESN'T always happen. If it DID always happen, I'd immediately say OK, discord is the best possible GW team and I too am convinced. But it doesn't ... and that's why I'm not. Stuff doesn't always die by the time they start blocking, nor can I use Finish Him by the end of the EVAS chain because the target is sometimes nowhere near 50% health. When it works, great ... when it doesn't work, all I seem to hear from discord people is "Well, it should work."

That's why the standard AP caller bar blows chunks as far as I'm concerned. The bar I posted is fairly energy intensive, but energy really wasn't the main problem. I use it with A/N, but N/A might be even better.

Another observation. As I've said before, the discord team really doesn't work well against mobs with multiple casters because it doesn't kill things fast enough. Igor said something like Oh discord is GREAT against multiple casters because you take them out quickly. The problem is that you take them out ONE BY ONE, and when there are good healers involved, you don't take them out quickly. Today I was doing Elona Reach HM, because it's today's Z mission. I can h/h that on my war with Sabway without any serious problems. (Hell, I can h/h anything on my war.) Pull, knock-lock, kill. Well, I gotta tell you, the discord guys kept wiping. Why? Because they can't kill the sages fast enough. The sages heal themselves (and everybody else) too quickly. Eventually, the heroes run outta energy, and we die. (That's what happens in protracted battles in HM.) The battles with the sage-arcanist-arcanist groups take FOREVER. The sages heal the trio faster than anybody can kill anything, and if you kill an arcanist before you remove the sage, the sage just resses him. This is a trio that a godmode warrior with PI/SY! and ordinary Sabway heroes can wipe out very quickly. PI one of the arcanists, call the sage and knock-lock him, SY! as needed, and the whole trio doesn't live more than a couple of rounds. An MS/DB sin has a slightly harder time, but not much harder. Again, I'm not a mathematician, but the DPS has GOT to be higher. I see them die.

If somebody can h/h Elona Reach HM with an AP caller and a pure discord setup, I'd like to see a video of it. Cuz if you can, it's gotta be with something other than the pvxwiki skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

I personally don't think you should bother with Rigor Mortis unless it's a boss (I can see why throw it on but I don't think it's really nessecary most of the time). The EVAS main attacks are unblockable (Iron Palm-Fox Fangs-Nine Tail Strike). Stuff will pretty much die by the time they even think about throwing up blocking stances (enchantments can be removed by a Necro with Rip Enchantment) because Discord should be hitting by the time your Assassin has teleported. You should quite literally be using Finish Him by the end of the EVAS chain if done right.

Are you running this on a Necro? Because that looks energy heavy aswell.

maxxfury · Jul 07, 2009, 10:30 AM // 10:30

Micro the disco for a "clean spike" on priority targets, or when under no pressure and no need for your trio to be casting their utility.

Tenebrae · Jul 07, 2009, 11:00 AM // 11:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

BS dude. E-management takes ~1-2 seconds every ~10-20 seconds. Compare that with the time wasted running from target to target in melee. ~(1-2 seconds every 3-4~ seconds) Not even close.

That would be great .... but its a shame that is a LIE. Still faking times dude ? who do you think you are fooling ?. You kill everything in 3 secs with an Full AP chain of 35 energy , losing 14 ( because if you say not full chain is 25 energy and you are only losing 14 theres no way in hell you are killing in 3 secs ) and you ONLY have to e-management every .... 5-10 chains ?. 100% BS , and even more , you say "time wasted running from target to target" like the mobs spread with at least 10mt from each other and were ALWAYS running. Seriously dude no way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

The hypocrisy in this thread is pretty mind-blowing.

Thats what he said looking at the mirror lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Besides, MS/DB is a terrible melee choice, even if you do choose melee. u shouldn't even have enough time to use MS since things should be dead before then. SA or critscythe FTW.

HAHAHAHA , please explain HOW COME an MS/DB wont have time to use MS and a Critscythe will have time to deal more damage than the MS/DB sin in LESS than 3-4 secs ( because thats when you use MS ), faking again best cases for one and worst cases for the other tsk tsk .....
Yeah ,thats right , even in your imagination you are wrong. Dont think that any melee player is as brainless as the regular Discordway+AP caller , thats a very VERY BIG mistake.

Btw a regular AP Sin is also a VERY good option with the right combo for an specific zone .... and many times even BETTER.

zwei2stein · Jul 07, 2009, 11:11 AM // 11:11

Running discordway without AP caller is like running physicals without orders.

Sure, you gain one party slot for something imba but at cost of effectiveness of several other party members. Your choice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

If somebody can h/h Elona Reach HM with an AP caller and a pure discord setup, I'd like to see a video of it. Cuz if you can, it's gotta be with something other than the pvxwiki skills.

I did it for Z-quest.

And yes, it was not PvX discord. I do such wild and dangerous stuff as running one discorder as N/E with wards (and sometimes with stoning. Wild and Dangerous!) ...

It was not easy, I can see how someone can get wiped there. But not really hard either because the only part of mission of that gave me trouble was left crystal bridge. I got surprised by patrols so got attention of two monks and boss group at same time. What saved me from wipe was flagging heroes so that stone dagges/stoning got obstructed and then spiking both monks down (failed once so it was without ap and well timed boss kill to recharge res sigs (henches died).

Rest of mission was typical mindless brain rotting "yawn" 1234 and nothing to boast about.

maxxfury · Jul 07, 2009, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

That would be great .... but its a shame that is a LIE. Still faking times dude ? who do you think you are fooling ?. You kill everything in 3 secs with an Full AP chain of 35 energy , losing 14 ( because if you say not full chain is 25 energy and you are only losing 14 theres no way in hell you are killing in 3 secs ) and you ONLY have to e-management every .... 5-10 chains ?. 100% BS , and even more , you say "time wasted running from target to target" like the mobs spread with at least 10mt from each other and were ALWAYS running. Seriously dude no way.

when i ran an ap caller on mes i used ether sig, and it cast fine and never interupted my chain and finished just before finish him procs.

So casting a glyph to coincide with FH will be no different, and will be ready again after every AP.

the 1sec gap between evas aftercast and the time when FH procs is enough to cast a glyph/ether sig ect. (maybe loose a fraction of a second in the delay. timing isnt hard :S

But unless you running a nec,i dare say you need to use your eman more tha once every 10 chains..

Carnivorous Cupcake · Jul 07, 2009, 02:23 PM // 14:23

The answer is YEA!

Discord without AP Caller is like lolrus without a bukkit, very sad.

Tenebrae

Me and my guildie decided to vanquish a bit. I ran AP Caller and Discords, he ran MS/DB with SS Necro, Channeling Rit and Incoming!/Fall Back! paragon for speed. Most of the time poor fella couldn't even land a hit on the same target i attacked let alone getting all the way to MS.

Thats a good comparisson of AP Caller effectiveness to MS/DB, it also shows that among all melee choices MS/DB isn't the best choice.

Waiting 1 extra second to cast energy management when you play A/E or E/A isn't a big deal because you will only have to cast it once in around 20 seconds like traversc said. It's not a lie, it's true, I get the same results.

AP Caller is better, trust me, you will see it for yourself when you stop stubbornly denying it and evaluate all pros and cons in an unbiased manner or try it on practise if it's too hard for you (or do both, if you arent lazy).

Paul Dawg

Discords are a perfect team for a game like Guild Wars because it allows allot of variety and adaptation possibility is needed.

Blocks have no effect on my killing speed whatsoever because spells cannot be blocked and EVAS spike chain consists fully 2/3 of unblockable attack skills and 1/3 of touch skills that obviously go through block too.

You should remember that sometimes you heroes will refuse to cast Discord and start casting other things or just kiting thats why you must have Discords keybound in case that happens because AP Caller has no dot at all. Althoguh I can't disagree with people who say it has has a pretty good spike it wont be enough to kill high hp mobs in Hard Mode. ^^

In Elona reach, were you running AP Caller or something else?

Super Igor

Being "perfect" and having a short temper at the same time only scores you bans, telling you this from personal expirience, I hope you will remember it next time you return.

Tenebrae · Jul 07, 2009, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake

Me and my guildie decided to vanquish a bit. I ran AP Caller and Discords, he ran MS/DB with SS Necro, Channeling Rit and Incoming!/Fall Back! paragon for speed. Most of the time poor fella couldn't even land a hit on the same target i attacked let alone getting all the way to MS.

That only proofs that you and your guildie dont know how to sync with each other. If you agree with traversc ( i pity you ) and you can kill 1 HM ( no matter what lvl it is , except bosses ) in 3 secs , its pretty brainless for the another human melee to attack the same target you and your discord heroes are killing. That , my friend as you can see , proofs nothing but the fact that you didnt work together as well as you should do , it has nothing to do with this discussion soz.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake

Thats a good comparisson of AP Caller effectiveness to MS/DB, it also shows that among all melee choices MS/DB isn't the best choice.

As i said before , no , is not a good comparison by far. Im curious , what ( in your opinion ) are best melee choices WITHOUT an AP caller for discord ? keep in mind that Critscythe has been said before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake

Waiting 1 extra second to cast energy management when you play A/E or E/A isn't a big deal because you will only have to cast it once in around 20 seconds like traversc said. It's not a lie, it's true, I get the same results.

Not only me , there are about 3 or 4 ppl in this thread that thinks the opposite . Keep in mind that traversc states that he can kill ANY HM mob ( regardless of lvl , zone , and profs ) in 3secs or less with a FULL AP chain ( 35 energy , 14 loss ) without casting emanagement in around 20 secs , that means 7 chains = 91 energy lost ( ok 75-85 if you count regen ). Please tell me what E-management are you using to get those results on a X/A ( N/A not allowed , soul reaping ). Words are cheap huh ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake

AP Caller is better, trust me, you will see it for yourself when you stop stubbornly denying it and evaluate all pros and cons in an unbiased manner or try it on practise if it's too hard for you (or do both, if you arent lazy).

Is better sometimes , is equal others and some is worse. That guy you mentioned is talking like it was GODSPEED KILLING 100% of the times. Stop calling me "unbiased" and stubborn because for god sake im SO FAR of that. Tell me to experiment an easy smash button build kinda sounds like you think that build actually requieres skill to use ..... thanks for making me laugh 3 secs

.

Soz dude but this thread is so long and some ppl has dropped huge amounts of fake times and impressive unfair comparisons on purpose that sometimes you think you are saying something pretty fair with reasons and those reasons are not so true.

Carnivorous Cupcake · Jul 07, 2009, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Tenebrae

The point is that MS/DB is by nature poorly suited for spiking, thats why if you for any reason decide to run it instead of AP Caller with Discords you will be unlikely to ynlesh your combo to full potential before the target is destroyed.

Our sync was obviously lacking due to this, half way through the Vanquish my guildie got fed up and we had to go back so he could roll a Critscythe and replace the SS Necro with AP Curses necro, worked much better.

For MS/DB alternative I will go with what others have said and suggest a Wounding Strike Critscythe. It can apply Discord requrements without "gimping" it's bar, it can unlesh it's high damage attack combo much quicker too so it's ideal for spiking. I won't advise to run it instead of AP Caller still though.

In total any profession with four pips of energy regen is only going to lose around 10-11 energy, thats not a big deal considering all of those professions have around 50 energy minimum and extra means of managing their energy if necessary.

3 second kills is true, thats how long it takes me with Assassin, Monk, Ritualist and Necro, little more with Warrior but I rarely run Discords on him. I assume its the same with other profs I dont play.

I only see you and Improvavel arguing against AP Caller, that includes energy management.

Ok now on my Monk I use Castigation Signet to manage my energy if needed. It has decent armor ignoring damage and works all the time because mobs are always attacking.

My Ritualist is either using Essence Strike or Boon of Creation which makes EVAS pretty much free, I also add Explosive Growth which makes my EVAS deal a bit of extra AoE damage as well.

My Warrior doesnt have any decent eenrgy management, counterattack isn't good enough and is hard to pull off but as I have said i rarely use Discords with my War.

I dont have Mesmer, Ele, Ranger and Para but they can manage their energy very well with Inspiration Magic line, Mysticism, Leadership, my friends have expirience running AP Caller with these professions and have never comlained about energy, they say theyre always full.

Rangers can spec into beast mastery and use Scavenger's Strike which is a very decent energy management. Pet will also provide a very good aggro sink.

I'm calling you stubborn and biased because your posts, contrary to traversc, lack reasoning or referring to personal expirience but consist mostly of harassment and total refusal to listen.

I think that you should try AP Caller + Discords, you will see how good it is. It won't make you wrong or make people laugh at you, quite contrary actually.

Tenebrae · Jul 07, 2009, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake

The point is that MS/DB is by nature poorly suited for spiking, thats why if you for any reason decide to run it instead of AP Caller with Discords you will be unlikely to ynlesh your combo to full potential before the target is destroyed.

No one said MS/DB is made for a spike and who said that Discord should always attack the same target at the same time than the sin ? can switch in 0.1 , is just simply not the way you play it . I encourage YOU to try instead tell me to try the opposite ( wich i already did , soz if you dont believe me , is not my prob ).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake

For MS/DB alternative I will go with what others have said and suggest a Wounding Strike Critscythe. It can apply Discord requrements without "gimping" it's bar, it can unlesh it's high damage attack combo much quicker too so it's ideal for spiking. I won't advise to run it instead of AP Caller still though.

Thats your opinion but i have played Critscythe and MS/DB bloody lots of times and i can tell ya ,for damage and Discord triggering is ALMOST the same for those builds , try it instead of being stubborn ( recognize the attitude ?

) .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake

In total any profession with four pips of energy regen is only going to lose around 10-11 energy, thats not a big deal considering all of those professions have around 50 energy minimum and extra means of managing their energy if necessary.

If your chain is 5-6secs long , thats true , but if you are doing 7 full AP chains every 21 secs , thats a lie. Pure maths you cant beat that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake

3 second kills is true, thats how long it takes me with Assassin, Monk, Ritualist and Necro, little more with Warrior but I rarely run Discords on him. I assume its the same with other profs I dont play.

No its noooot and you know iiiiiiiiit . Is not the same on lvl 26 foes than lvl 30 , nor even if you have microed discord wich i can tell you at least 50% of the Discord users haaaaaave and ..... well .
There are so SO SO MANY situations where the chain times vary that if you want to say a number , saying the LOWEST full APchain kill time is so untrue that its almost a lie .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake

I only see you and Improvavel arguing against AP Caller, that includes energy management.

Nope , we are the only ones that still have fun posting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake

... emanagements etc ...
Rangers can spec into beast mastery and use Scavenger's Strike which is a very decent energy management. Pet will also provide a very good aggro sink.

Im not saying that is a bad e management but explain me if you ONLY use it every 7 full AP CHAINS ( 21 sec ) how do you get 75-85 energy back ? you dont. Period.
Talking about the ranger mmmmmmmm , taking a pet with scavenger is hella risky , i bad shot and your bar goes down 3 ..... X seconds depending on BM att.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake

I'm calling you stubborn and biased because your posts, contrary to traversc, lack reasoning or referring to personal expirience but consist mostly of harassment and total refusal to listen.

That is your opinion but hey , im not here faking maths or making false "fair" scenarios where my build ALWAYS wins , remember it. I say builds, i say skills but some guys keep talking in "general" because they really know that when they claim something we are gonna take it down with ease and real maths .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake

I think that you should try AP Caller + Discords, you will see how good it is. It won't make you wrong or make people laugh at you, quite contrary actually.

I dont really know why you still think that me or Improvavel actually NEVER tested or tried AP caller + Discords microing discord to 3 keys on several ZQ ( for example ) , and even more ; dunno why you think that WE think the build is not good

I really encourage you to find a melee/ranged build to play discord effectively without AP ( i can tell you , is not hard ) instead of telling us to play something that we already played . Try switching targets and playing as a MS/DB or CritScythe or whatever if you are not lazy and used to a button smasher brainless skilled build ( note that never said BAD build )

PS: And please , dont call ppl names , you dont need to

Omgopolis · Jul 07, 2009, 05:59 PM // 17:59

I've played around with an AP caller on my monk, and energy does get tight rather quickly if you have to use AP, YMLaD, the sin support, and Finish Him for each target. Even getting an occasional Blood Ritual from a necro henchie doesn't solve energy issues, and it slows you down a lot after killing 3 guys. I did have to use all 4 skills to spike down each target, but that's probably because my titles for each skill are rather low, so the damage isn't as high as it could be. Maybe if I did some title grinding I could save a lot of energy.

I've also noticed that even a small amount of hex or condition removal can screw you over, as long as the mob has it on more than one enemy. Rather annoying to try and kill a monk or rit and have a different guy remove a condition or hex and stop the discords. Worst case, you're stuck relying on your heroes or henchies to spread the hexes for you, and that can be pretty slow.

I've also played around with discord stuff on my para, using asuran scan and barbed spear for the hex and condition. Not quite as solid for spiking, but since both skills charge quickly and can be used often it's quite nice for areas with more hex/condition removal. It definitely beats trying to run an AP caller on a guy with 2 pips of energy regen.

The AP caller is pretty solid, but it's not perfect and you can definitely run discord without it.

AtomicMew · Jul 07, 2009, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

That would be great .... but its a shame that is a LIE. Still faking times dude ? who do you think you are fooling ?. You kill everything in 3 secs with an Full AP chain of 35 energy , losing 14 ( because if you say not full chain is 25 energy and you are only losing 14 theres no way in hell you are killing in 3 secs ) and you ONLY have to e-management every .... 5-10 chains ?. 100% BS , and even more , you say "time wasted running from target to target" like the mobs spread with at least 10mt from each other and were ALWAYS running. Seriously dude no way.

Quote:

Keep in mind that traversc states that he can kill ANY HM mob

I never evah said that dude

I realize discordway limitations. I wouldn't take it to vloxen HM for example.
It's not a lie. By the 3-4th target, you don't need full chain, since they'll probably be limping at around 1/2 health from all the random AoE/henchmen dmg/death nova/degen etc. A lot of the time you actually only need AP + FH! when they're already < 50 which recharges your energy pretty quickly.

Also, please stop with the random flaming. I realize you are new, but it doesn't help in debating.

@Paul Dawg: I dont recall elona's reach being particularly difficult. I did it with discordway + 2 pugs. I'll try it with henchmen later.

Improvavel · Jul 07, 2009, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

Yet again you don't realize how to run an ap caller.

I love those kind of remarks. A monkey can run AP caller.

My Necro runs an AP caller with no problems. Opposed to other classes and especially vs physical classes, it has much much better way energy management. Even then I need to refrain the use of my backup skills like reckless haste because MOP+EVAS+YMLAD+AP or whatever combination is energy demanding.

In your wet dreams and with micro discord can work like some people are saying in here. In game it doesn't work like that. Just doesn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake

Tenebrae

The point is that MS/DB is by nature poorly suited for spiking, thats why if you for any reason decide to run it instead of AP Caller with Discords you will be unlikely to ynlesh your combo to full potential before the target is destroyed.

Our sync was obviously lacking due to this, half way through the Vanquish my guildie got fed up and we had to go back so he could roll a Critscythe and replace the SS Necro with AP Curses necro, worked much better.

Best use for your sin would have been go bash someone else while the rest of the team focused on your target.

Melee professions needs a bit more thinking. That is why they have low reputation.

Quote:

I think that you should try AP Caller + Discords, you will see how good it is. It won't make you wrong or make people laugh at you, quite contrary actually.

Yeah, I run it with my necro, clearly the best profession for AP caller of the game.

Still, the claims in this thread are hard to fulfill even with the best emag in the game - kills every 2 secs, butt loads of support skills, etc.

No, melee+discord plays different from APcaller+discord, but the end result is about the same, in terms of time spent to kill a full mob.

Carnivorous Cupcake · Jul 08, 2009, 10:20 AM // 10:20

Tenebrae

I'm not telling you a lie, those are actual averege killing times.

Indeed, MS/DB isn't made for a spike, thats why I dislike it in a spike orientaited build.

I like Critscythe better because it has quicker chain and is better at applying conditions without hindering it's abilities.
I also like the AP Caller because it is best at applying the requrements and also comes with decent spike, knocklocks and 4 free slots. For example on my Assassin I am currently experimentig with FH! + Epid combo to spread Deepwound and Cracked armor around, needs good reaction but is quite effective.

Maybe 20 seconds is a bit of an overestimate but I said around, maths dont really apply here because theoretical result doesn't take any variables into consideration like for example you can already have a condition on the target that has lost some hp so you only have to cast AP and follow with FH! Thats also the reason why I dont believe that either of you tried the AP Caller, all of yor statements are based on theory, not practice.
It takes me on averege 3 seconds to take a mob down, I can make 4 full spikes before expiriencing energy problems and lets add roughly another second to each spike for time requred to select a new target assuming all new targets are at full hp (which is very unlikely) it will take me around 16 seconds until I will have to cast energy management, in a more realistic scenario where making a full chain sometimes is not requred, it's around 20 seconds, so I think my timing is right.

Don't tell me what to do or what to play.
I won't play a less effective build for the sake of it, I will keep playing a strong build I like.

Skill level requred to play AP Caller compared to MS/DB.
You say it's mindless button mashing, I say it's hardly different from other Assassin builds because in fact you need more timing, less mindless button mashing and same target selection skill (if not more because wrongly picked target can be devastating for Discord) than MS/DB running which only requres going through your chain in a repetative fasion and not forgetting to mantaining any buffs you have brought with yourself. Not saying it's a bad build or anything like that though.

Improvavel

I wouldn't make such remarks about the AP Caller, playing an AP Caller is like playing a caster afer all, and playing a caster has more depth to it in my opinion.

You argue for MS/DB but as I have said above in my reply to Tenebrae I can say that build doesn't have more depth than AP Caller.

You must micro Discord for best effects, heroes sometimes refuse to cast Discord when they should.

Discord works exactly like people have described here, very fast kills, it's amazing. Try running it like people suggest here, you will see.

Tenebrae · Jul 08, 2009, 11:46 AM // 11:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake

I'm not telling you a lie, those are actual averege killing times.

What part of this "There are so SO SO MANY situations where the chain times vary that if you want to say a number , saying the LOWEST full APchain kill time is so untrue that its almost a lie ." didnt you get ?. Dont say your experiences are the average on the build. It will be sad for me to have to explain you WHY i am right and you are not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake

Maybe 20 seconds is a bit of an overestimate but I said around, maths dont really apply here because theoretical result doesn't take any variables into consideration

Hahahaha i see you retreat , thanks , at least you have what it takes to do it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake

Thats also the reason why I dont believe that either of you tried the AP Caller, all of yor statements are based on theory, not practice.

You are wrong and like i told ya before , i dont care if you dont believe me but im actually telling the truth. Dont make your experience and your use of the build as the "average" its a bloody HUGE mistake

like this ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake

It takes me on averege 3 seconds to take a mob down, I can make 4 full spikes before expiriencing energy problems and lets add roughly another second to each spike for time requred to select a new target assuming all new targets are at full hp (which is very unlikely) it will take me around 16 seconds until I will have to cast energy management, in a more realistic scenario where making a full chain sometimes is not requred, it's around 20 seconds, so I think my timing is right.

I bet my left arm that at least 70% of the Discordway users in all GW players in the world CANT do that so , IF ( and yes , its an Empire State building size "IF" ) those numbers are your true average times ( no matter zone or HM foe lvl ) theres no way in hell that can be taken as FULL BUILD average killing times. Period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake

Don't tell me what to do or what to play.

Take your own advice , dont tell me what to do , what to play or take for granted ( based only in your opinion ) what i have or havent played/tested and time ive spent doing it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake

I can say that build doesn't have more depth than AP Caller.

Dude , the only thing that doesnt have more depth than an AP caller is an Ursan build and its nerfed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake

You must micro Discord for best effects, heroes sometimes refuse to cast Discord when they should.

Discord works exactly like people have described here, very fast kills, it's amazing. Try running it like people suggest here, you will see.

We know what has to be done , its you the one that doesnt realise that you and some ppl are making a lot of assumptions , playing unfair comparison cases and selling their own experience with X prof , X modifications and their "real" (

) killing times as the Average build times and that mate , that is very far from reality.

maxxfury · Jul 08, 2009, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Ap: 3/4sec cast + 3/4 sec aftercast 1 1/2 seconds
Ymlad!: shout. 0 seconds.
EvAs: 1sec cast + 3/4 aftercast 1 3/4 seconds
FH!: Shout. 0 seconds.

So you have 3 1/4 seconds NOT counting player been slow and not hitting them perfectly! Micro discord in in the first seconds to allow for discords aftercast. And the mob is dead. All skills are recharged and aftercast has completed. Rinse and repeat.

So that works out at a kill every 4 seconds~ giving time for selecting next target and delays in your play(due to lag, slow fingers) thats how it goes for most targets.

half way through a mob you can stop casting the sin and just AP+ylmad, FH the target. cutting the chain to 3seconds~ due to the henchies/rest of teams aoe/damage and what ever your spammed sins have been doin.

That covers an entire group from first to last
monster(not inc boss types) So for most mobs 4 or 3 seconds kill times are easily achievable WITH micro of discord.

A little slower if you dont micro due to the trio casting their other skills if you need your necs to heal ect if your taking too much damage.

THATS why people use disco, because its THAT easy. any idiot can do that in their sleep. hell macro all the buttons to your mouse/g15 if you must(or just jab all your keyboard binds at once)

Disco is easy mode to h&h, hence you use the easiest and least effort primer bar. *shrugs.

If you wanna make some effort and think about your team you take your friends and smash stuff up with melee and bitches way harder!

To answer the OP's question....YES you can use a melee caller...No one cares what you run! your heroes and hench deffo dont

Shursh · Jul 08, 2009, 02:32 PM // 14:32

omg, so much discussion over something so trivial...

no, discordway does not need an AP caller, however it will be faster to apply the necessary hex/condition if you use an AP caller, plus you get the added benefit of having powerful PvE skills recharged with huge energy returns.

Carnivorous Cupcake · Jul 08, 2009, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Tenebrae

My averege killing time is 3 seconds, same for my entire guild and every person in this thread aoart from you. Maybe, we just happened to be those 30% of godly players but by a more realistic scenario you would have to give up your left arm.

I assumed you havent tried AP Caller Discords because you denied that this is possible, but now I think that something might be wrong with your playstyle or builds. ^^

Saying that I'm wrong without anything to back it up won't go a long way.

Do I retreat? No, I have povided evidence that around 20 seconds is what it realisticly takes until you have to cast energy management. You have ignored that completely, just like any other evidence, so who is really retreating eh?