Curse

MasterSasori · Feb 09, 2010, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

?????

It gives you 8 armor instead of 16 - not that biggie (not making any other consideations of your argument with the other dude).

I know, thanks for the clarification. Still I want my armor as high as possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

oh . i was not talking about you . i was talking about your heroes .

Heroes are the ultimate fail in MoP. They have no sense on how to abuse it. Especially a MoP on a paragon, they won't even have the energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

you runed your heroes . i didn't . they have 400+ hp . it's my problem over here so i've got nothing to say .

You don't need to spend much on runes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

well firstly, i didn't know what MBAS is . secondly, 20 seconds was just an example of how long . i didn't say i could do it faster since i don't time myself . but i know you can't do it in less than 20 seconds .

1. If you're running N/A, you should be killing faster.
2. As I said, it depends on what group. It is easy to kill some groups, even in 20 seconds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

If you're a paragon, you stick with imbagon . i was talking about your heroes . can they run SY ?

There are no paragon heroes in my build. The one I listed is an optional instead of the SoS. And yes I know you were talking about my heroes and as I said, they're horrible at it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

P/N was just an example made up right at that time . I wasn't even considering whether it worked or not . and like i said, all these builds were meant for your heroes . not you . if p/n doesn't work then go p/rt for splinter then . 5 energy cost isn't too much to ask ? if you've already spreaded in 3 attributes then go /me for rupts (cof and power return?) and on your MM, drop /m and get curses or channelling since they have better energy management .

Well I'm going to need an example that will work unfortunately. P/Rt also will not work. Spear and Leadership must both be there and that means very low command and low AL shield. Then you have to consider the opportunity cost - Why would I take a P/Rt over a SoS rit? Or even, why would I run that over a SoS Rit with Para skills?

On my MM, curses doesn't have much to offer me other than Enfeebling Blood. Channeling is a better idea but since I have the SoS rit, I am reluctant to change it. This would put my soul reaping at 8+1 if I want to run a 10 splinter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

the way you speak doesn't seem so to me . i never said i didn't want to talk to you . i'm just offended by the way you reply . it's the words you use, or maybe even me as well, that causes the misunderstanding and if it was the case for me then i apologize .

The way I respond is simply being frank and critical. It has nothing to do with offense. I don't like to be roundabout - just get to the point that needs to be addressed and cut the crap. There is no need to apologize.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

by offence, i mean damage . not the one you thought i was talking about . Alright . Next time i won't suggest anything until i've tested it extensively . and about the HP thing, i didn't rune my heroes so they don't have 500+ hp when a sup rune is used on them . do you consider 400+ to be good enough ?

Yes Offense as in kill power, no misunderstanding on that part.You don't need a superior rune. Major rune + survivor on leg and chest should be enough. Vitae and additional surv insig is nice but not necessary. If you can afford, then use a superior. The only reason my heroes may have a superior vigor or so is because hero armor makes excellent storage. I don't like anything below 450. But thats my opinion, I'm sure other ppl will disagree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_OoV_Heroway <-- you made that didn't you ?

Yes, with the help of Higher Minion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

Well take a look at http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team...ical_Hero_Team

I've seen this and I find it works quite well. However, the SoS Smite doesn't work for me so I stick with the heal.

I also don't like MoP. It's of course still good, but the hero just doesn't take advantage of it.

I dislike the Jagged Bomber. It doesn't provide me with anything that AotL cannot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

edit: is this why i'm dying ? i didn't rune my heroes ?

What are you dying against? Certain monsters are just good against certain hero builds. Not sure why, but I have trouble killing Vaettir quickly and its pissing me off. Mostly because of armor ignoring damage, good heals, and scourge healing bullsh*t.

Lusciious · Feb 10, 2010, 04:41 AM // 04:41

Quote:

Heroes are the ultimate fail in MoP. They have no sense on how to abuse it. Especially a MoP on a paragon, they won't even have the energy.

Agreed . the curses setup in sabway isn't good as well.

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1. If you're running N/A, you should be killing faster.
2. As I said, it depends on what group. It is easy to kill some groups, even in 20 seconds.

1) i do kill fast . esp big groups . but in HM, big groups hurt .

Quote:

Well I'm going to need an example that will work unfortunately. P/Rt also will not work. Spear and Leadership must both be there and that means very low command and low AL shield. Then you have to consider the opportunity cost - Why would I take a P/Rt over a SoS rit? Or even, why would I run that over a SoS Rit with Para skills?

On my MM, curses doesn't have much to offer me other than Enfeebling Blood. Channeling is a better idea but since I have the SoS rit, I am reluctant to change it. This would put my soul reaping at 8+1 if I want to run a 10 splinter.

Paragons does more physical attacks than rits do although overall, rits might do more damage with sos . which is what we want if we're using MoP. You don't like barbs ? Like mentioned earlier by Higher Minion, Reckless Haste is also good for it's 50% miss rate . It's like having aegis on whoever the hexed foe is attacking .

You know how heroes only cast AotL after it ended, well i felt that because i didn't want to micro and in order for my hero to maximize the use of AotL, when masochism is used, i want the duration to be as near recharge as possible so i used a minor rune . 14+1+1+2 . at 16 DM, AotL lasts 48 seconds. at 15, it lasts 45 seconds but because you get 10 minions at 16, i decided to go with 16. What do you think ?

Quote:

What are you dying against? Certain monsters are just good against certain hero builds. Not sure why, but I have trouble killing Vaettir quickly and its pissing me off. Mostly because of armor ignoring damage, good heals, and scourge healing bullsh*t.

JadeSea outside Leviathan pits

HigherMinion · Feb 10, 2010, 09:29 AM // 09:29

Decided to change AotL for Jagged Bones... I haven't used it in a while, but it seems to be better than I remembered. Cheap minion animation spells, Jagged is 5e for two minions. Just depends if the Hero AI will chain cast on every minion in time.

Lusciious · Feb 10, 2010, 09:42 AM // 09:42

Jagged has a recharge of 15 seconds tho ... although AotL has a recharge of 45, the most you can get in 45 is 3 minions . AotL on the other hand is capable of raising 11 minions but yeah .. this is not always the case .

I might just try Jagged Bones again since it has also been a while since i last used it .

edit: i guess it's okay .

atm, i'm trying a MB + Channelling

ER Protter

OoV Healer

1 healer hench, 2 rangers and 1 warrior hench

Arrogant Bastard · Feb 10, 2010, 10:20 AM // 10:20

I find AotL to be more effective overall because it allows you to have 1-2 minions before engaging (with no corpses available beforehand). Also, the ability to raise a bunch of minions at once can be very useful.

However, Jagged Bones can be useful in areas with a lot of AoE.

HigherMinion · Feb 10, 2010, 10:44 AM // 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

Jagged has a recharge of 15 seconds tho ... although AotL has a recharge of 45, the most you can get in 45 is 3 minions . AotL on the other hand is capable of raising 11 minions but yeah .. this is not always the case .

I might just try Jagged Bones again since it has also been a while since i last used it .

edit: i guess it's okay .

atm, i'm trying a MB + Channelling

ER Protter

OoV Healer

1 healer hench, 2 rangers and 1 warrior hench

Well, three uses of Jagged in the 45 seconds will get you 3 minions that, when they die, will come back again.

So essentially that's 6 minions. Ran with Shamblings and you get 4 minions out of one corpse.

I'm sure JB used to have a 1/4 cast time... Well, if I don't run JB, I will go back to either OoU or IJaFW.

I'm also unsure if I remembered to mention I don't run that OoV hero in a h/h setup. I bring another paragon or ranger//pet thing. It's only in 2+(6) teams I use it.

Can Jagged Bones target allied minions? As in, ones you have no raised yourself.

Lusciious · Feb 10, 2010, 11:00 AM // 11:00

yes . jagged minion works on allied minions . and yes, i just found JB to be better than AotL . in massive aoe, JB casted minions can still survive .

And, i realised that heroes don't use warmongers weapon . out of the 1 hr of testing, he only casted it on me once .

and rit henchment are better healers than monk henchmen .

whats IJaFW lol .

I want full physical support . I have splinter, mop, barbs, oov . i dont like soh . so i'm good atm .

edit: also, you know how splinter weapon is the only good skill in the channelling attribute ? i've decided to drop JB and get OoU . JB has too many optionals but there aren't many good skills to fill in those slots .

Yes i know heroes don't know how to spam OoU but whenever they do spam it, the damage increment is alot . so it doesn't matter much if they spam or not imo . of course, spamming would be better . but yeah .

this is what i run for my MM . OoU, Animate Bone Fiend/Minions, Animate Vampiric horror, masochism, blood of the master, putrid bile, Death Nova, Splinter Weapon. more damage

edit: just tested . MMs are better than MBs in HM. I was mobbed earlier by 2 - 3 groups a few times (i'm too used to being mobbed in NM) but i didn't die which is good

HigherMinion · Feb 10, 2010, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

yes . jagged minion works on allied minions . and yes, i just found JB to be better than AotL . in massive aoe, JB casted minions can still survive .

And, i realised that heroes don't use warmongers weapon . out of the 1 hr of testing, he only casted it on me once .

and rit henchment are better healers than monk henchmen .

whats IJaFW lol .

I want full physical support . I have splinter, mop, barbs, oov . i dont like soh . so i'm good atm .

edit: also, you know how splinter weapon is the only good skill in the channelling attribute ? i've decided to drop JB and get OoU . JB has too many optionals but there aren't many good skills to fill in those slots .

Yes i know heroes don't know how to spam OoU but whenever they do spam it, the damage increment is alot . so it doesn't matter much if they spam or not imo . of course, spamming would be better . but yeah .

this is what i run for my MM . OoU, Animate Bone Fiend/Minions, Animate Vampiric horror, masochism, blood of the master, putrid bile, Death Nova, Splinter Weapon. more damage

edit: just tested . MMs are better than MBs in HM. I was mobbed earlier by 2 - 3 groups a few times (i'm too used to being mobbed in NM) but i didn't die which is good

It is true you don't really need an elite slot to maintain your minions.
IJaFW= It's Just a Flesh Wound! Motivational Paragon shout, 1s recharge, remove all conditions from target-other ally. It's pretty awesome, and you don't need points in Motivation.

MasterSasori · Feb 10, 2010, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

yes . jagged minion works on allied minions . and yes, i just found JB to be better than AotL . in massive aoe, JB casted minions can still survive .

JB is still good but so is AotL. In the end, it depends on which one fits your overall build better because I don't see one significantly better than the other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

And, i realised that heroes don't use warmongers weapon . out of the 1 hr of testing, he only casted it on me once .

No he casts it ocassionally. A very seldom occasionally. You'll have to micro it especially since it would be a very useless weapon spell on occasions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

and rit henchment are better healers than monk henchmen .

No they are a MUCH better healer than monk henchies with the exception of Mhenlo. Hes not a total douche.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

whats IJaFW lol .

It's a fail elite that specs in motivation and should not be mentioned again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

i dont like soh . so i'm good atm .

whyyyyyyyyyy? SoH is awesome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

Yes i know heroes don't know how to spam OoU but whenever they do spam it, the damage increment is alot . so it doesn't matter much if they spam or not imo . of course, spamming would be better . but yeah .

I haven't used OoU in a while so I'm reluctant to talk much about it but from my experience, OoU may cause trouble but BotM is the worse of the two.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

edit: just tested . MMs are better than MBs in HM. I was mobbed earlier by 2 - 3 groups a few times (i'm too used to being mobbed in NM) but i didn't die which is good

It depends on the situation. That was only one, but it sounds promising.

Paragons does more physical attacks than rits do although overall, rits might do more damage with sos . which is what we want if we're using MoP. You don't like barbs ? Like mentioned earlier by Higher Minion, Reckless Haste is also good for it's 50% miss rate . It's like having aegis on whoever the hexed foe is attacking .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

...at 16 DM, AotL lasts 48 seconds. at 15, it lasts 45 seconds but because you get 10 minions at 16, i decided to go with 16. What do you think ?

Whether you use OoU, JB, AotL, Death Magic should always be at 16. If there is any hero that needs to be at 16, it is MMs/MBs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

JadeSea outside Leviathan pits

What in particular are you dying against? The dragons, giant turtles?

HigherMinion · Feb 10, 2010, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

It's a fail elite that specs in motivation and should not be mentioned again.

Why don't you like this elite? It's elite condition removal, which is rather much better than the usual Empathic Removal that alot of MBs use, though I'd say Signet of Removal is on par with it.

You only spec into Motivation if you REALLY want +25% IMS for 4 seconds or however long. The condition removal part is free.

MasterSasori · Feb 10, 2010, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Why don't you like this elite? It's elite condition removal, which is rather much better than the usual Empathic Removal that alot of MBs use, though I'd say Signet of Removal is on par with it.

You only spec into Motivation if you REALLY want +25% IMS for 4 seconds or however long. The condition removal part is free.

I just don't like using my elite for condition removal unless its really necessary. As you stated, we can use a cleaner mes instead and Empathic removal is really unimpressive. I wouldn't waste an elite slot of just about anything for Empathic.

Also what else is that para going to do? Can't keep up SY 24/7, not particularly great in damage, and the anthems it gives are only good with other physicals and a few for casters.

SmokingHotImolation · Feb 10, 2010, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Why don't you like this elite? It's elite condition removal, which is rather much better than the usual Empathic Removal that alot of MBs use, though I'd say Signet of Removal is on par with it.

You only spec into Motivation if you REALLY want +25% IMS for 4 seconds or however long. The condition removal part is free.

I disagree with this.
Empathic removal heals for 60 AND removes a condition AND a hex from target other ally AND yourself, which makes it, along with Signet of removal, better for general pve.
Besides, if you really need a heavy condition removal like IJaFW, why not go with RC? It does the same, has a better bonus effect, and also allows you to spec into prot prayers, which is a much more useful attribute line than Motivation.

EDIT:

Agree with above. Foul Feast and some other small condition removers should generally do the trick

Lusciious · Feb 10, 2010, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

You'll have to micro it especially since it would be a very useless weapon spell on occasions.

i dislike micro-ing ...

Quote:

whyyyyyyyyyy? SoH is awesome.

Because microing is troublesome . enchantment removal + microing is not nice

If there are no enchantment removals then i'll use it . i don't mind doing it once or twice but not 30 times .

Quote:

It depends on the situation. That was only one, but it sounds promising.

Paragons does more physical attacks than rits do although overall, rits might do more damage with sos . which is what we want if we're using MoP. You don't like barbs ? Like mentioned earlier by Higher Minion, Reckless Haste is also good for it's 50% miss rate . It's like having aegis on whoever the hexed foe is attacking .

Also, a few of MM's minions tend to survive in AoE attacks. making it possible for them to get to the enemies backline . MB on the other hand is different . they have no health regeneration whatsoever to back them up when being attacked on the way to the enemies . yes they die on the day . a wasted minion . No i love barbs . I love numbers

yeah i said that (about reckless haste being aegis on whoever the hexed is targetting) earlier too .

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Whether you use OoU, JB, AotL, Death Magic should always be at 16. If there is any hero that needs to be at 16, it is MMs/MBs.

so you can get 1 more minion ? o.o

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What in particular are you dying against? The dragons, giant turtles?

just mobs who happen to stroll along very fast making it impossible for me to dodge's them and they add to the current group i'm fighting but yeah . i got rid of that problem when i switched to a MM .

Quote:

Also what else is that para going to do? Can't keep up SY 24/7, not particularly great in damage, and the anthems it gives are only good with other physicals and a few for casters.

paragons can't maintain SY 24/7 ? o.o that's weird . the last time i had a paragon, this wasn't the case . also, dark fury and mark of fury says hi .

Quote:

I disagree with this.
Empathic removal heals for 60 AND removes a condition AND a hex from target other ally AND yourself, which makes it, along with Signet of removal, better for general pve.
Besides, if you really need a heavy condition removal like IJaFW, why not go with RC? It does the same, has a better bonus effect, and also allows you to spec into prot prayers, which is a much more useful attribute line than Motivation.

EDIT:

Agree with above. Foul Feast and some other small condition removers should generally do the trick

50 healing . not 60 .

Yeah. RC is better than IJaFW. Even if you don't spec in prot, it still heals for quite a bit.

both skills costs 5 energy and have a 2 second recharge . RC has a 3/4 cast time which is not a big deal .

I like recovery . it looks good but i haven't really tried it .

edit: is animate flesh golem not worthy of using ? a lv 28 golem is nice .

HigherMinion · Feb 10, 2010, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmokingHotImolation

I disagree with this.
Empathic removal heals for 60 AND removes a condition AND a hex from target other ally AND yourself, which makes it, along with Signet of removal, better for general pve.
Besides, if you really need a heavy condition removal like IJaFW, why not go with RC? It does the same, has a better bonus effect, and also allows you to spec into prot prayers, which is a much more useful attribute line than Motivation.

EDIT:

Agree with above. Foul Feast and some other small condition removers should generally do the trick

It was an idea posted a while ago by Moloch Vein; on how MBs are always focused on either raising minions or spamming death Nova. IJaFW on the MB is so it can use it WHILE it's busy doing something else. Keeps physicals clean of blind, which is the main thing. There will be hex removal on either Vekk or the healer hench, I do believe.

MasterSasori · Feb 11, 2010, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

Because microing is troublesome . enchantment removal + microing is not nice

If there are no enchantment removals then i'll use it . i don't mind doing it once or twice but not 30 times.

Someone just confirmed that once you disable SoH after micro casting it, the hero will continue to maintain the enchantment.

Also, a few of MM's minions tend to survive in AoE attacks. making it possible for them to get to the enemies backline . MB on the other hand is different . they have no health regeneration whatsoever to back them up when being attacked on the way to the enemies . yes they die on the day . a wasted minion . No i love barbs . I love numbers

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

yeah i said that (about reckless haste being aegis on whoever the hexed is targetting) earlier too .

Yeah I know you said that because that's actually a part of your post that for some reason got stuck to my reply.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

so you can get 1 more minion ? o.o

Yes and stronger, higher level minions and bigger novas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

paragons can't maintain SY 24/7 ? o.o that's weird . the last time i had a paragon, this wasn't the case . also, dark fury and mark of fury says hi .

That's because your normal neighborhood imba uses focused anger, not with the IJaFW so 24/7 SY is present. You need double adren to keep SY up 24/7. Mark of Fury blows, it's only on OoV bar because the rest of blood sucks even harder. And we mentioned earlier that if you run dark fury, you can't run OoV.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

Yeah. RC is better than IJaFW. Even if you don't spec in prot, it still heals for quite a bit.

both skills costs 5 energy and have a 2 second recharge . RC has a 3/4 cast time which is not a big deal .

Not necessarily is RC than IJaFW better. IJaFW is a shout and requires little spec. RC can also be interrupted w/ or w/o daze and that is a possibility where monsters can rupt like crazy.

And you also have 3/4th second after cast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

I like recovery . it looks good but i haven't really tried it .

edit: is animate flesh golem not worthy of using ? a lv 28 golem is nice .

Recovery is decent. I like it where there is alot of blind, more so than most options.

Flesh Golem is probably the worst of all MM elites

JB, OoU, AotL > Empathic Removal > Garbage > Flesh Golem. The best thing Flesh Golem has to offer is that when it dies, you can make a minion out of him.

maxxfury · Feb 11, 2010, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

Someone just confirmed that once you disable SoH after micro casting it, the hero will continue to maintain the enchantment.

Must go test this!.....Disable AFTER you micro it eh? hmmmm...time/effort saver ftw!
ty :P

MasterSasori · Feb 11, 2010, 01:36 AM // 01:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Must go test this!.....Disable AFTER you micro it eh? hmmmm...time/effort saver ftw!
ty :P

That's what I was told. I've dont it a couple of times but never really dedicate myself to paying attention to whether it was being maintained or not.

Improvavel · Feb 11, 2010, 03:01 AM // 03:01

You just keep the skill disabled (you can and I advise you to do so, disable the skill before you actually cast it) - that skill slot will be disabled if you change area/go to outpost - so if you not swapping builds/changing skills that skill will stay disabled on that particular hero.

Then when you enter a new area you just click to cast the spell (you can let the forbid sign stay).

If you play with you hero bars showing shouldn't be to hard to keep track if the skill is being maintained or not (although it is true - in areas with loads of enchantment removal can be a pain in the ass if you don't really like to micro your heroes and prefer to play your build).

Lusciious · Feb 11, 2010, 08:39 AM // 08:39

Quote:

That's because your normal neighborhood imba uses focused anger, not with the IJaFW so 24/7 SY is present. You need double adren to keep SY up 24/7. Mark of Fury blows, it's only on OoV bar because the rest of blood sucks even harder. And we mentioned earlier that if you run dark fury, you can't run OoV.

i don't really use mark of fury and yes, skills in the blood attribute is bad ..

Quote:

Not necessarily is RC than IJaFW better. IJaFW is a shout and requires little spec. RC can also be interrupted w/ or w/o daze and that is a possibility where monsters can rupt like crazy.

And you also have 3/4th second after cast.

that is the only thing that i can see that is better than RC.

Why is flesh golem bad ?

@ the point about disabling AFTER micro-ing it, it doesn't work . once you cast it, it gets stripped immediately . unless your reflexes is really fast . but i still dont think it'd work .

MasterSasori · Feb 11, 2010, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

Why is flesh golem bad ?

@ the point about disabling AFTER micro-ing it, it doesn't work . once you cast it, it gets stripped immediately . unless your reflexes is really fast . but i still dont think it'd work .

What do you mean? The heroes stop maintaining it? You're supposed to disable it, then click on the icon to cast on the target.

Flesh golem failures:

1. Slow attack resulting in less damage
2. Used in a MM build and OoU is far superior
3. Melee and because its a stupid minion
4. have all the weaknesses of a minion and undead