Curse

HigherMinion · Feb 05, 2010, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

no no . what i mean by the weapon spells question is that if he casted splinter on you, would he cast another weapon spell on you for no apparent reason ?

Here's what i'm having a dilemma about .

OotV Channelling + 1 healer hench + 3 physical hench

OotV Restoration + 4 physical hench

SoS Channelling + 4 physical hench .

Which one is better ?

Edit: How would Well of Blood be good when it's fighting for corpses against the MM ? I don't like micro-ing so yeah ..

I've been using the first one; OoV weapon with a healer hench.

MasterSasori · Feb 05, 2010, 09:14 PM // 21:14

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Originally Posted by Lusciious

i have no energy problems spamming OotV . i meant spamming prot spells

Necros shouldn't be spamming Prot. They should be busy keeping OoV up. ER Infuser is for the prot spamming.

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Originally Posted by Lusciious

that's why we use infuse like you said earlier .

Just because a ER Infuser CAN keep the HP up doesn't mean it should. Losing a third of HP from Awaken and OoV is unnecessary and puts the necro at risk.

OotV Nec = SoS Restoration Support Rit > Order of Pain Nec > Others

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Originally Posted by Lusciious

The only reason why Order of Pain would be dealing less than it's stated damage is against high AL bosses . since Order of Pain = Physical damage like barbs . However a spirit's attack is armour ignoring and added together with Painful Bond, you would see up to 50 damage per spirit . But remember that even though it's armour ignoring, it does not by pass prots so prots like shielding hands would reduce its damage . But also, don't forget that the spirit's attack aren't 200 and that it has to be blocked by prot spirit . they do small damage packs which is good and bad .

I don't recall Shielding Hands to be a real problem in PvE. OoV is armor ignoring so that can't be used in the argument for SoS rit v. OoV. I'm not mentioning any thing about OoP Fury because I don't support it.

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Originally Posted by Lusciious

Look at it . the most harmful prots e.g. RoF, LS, Guardian, Aegis and against spirit attacks also affect OotV .

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Originally Posted by Lusciious

so far i like Well of Power + Order of Pain . The support is good . and i get to use (+ a major and awaken the blood for 17 blood for +7 hp regen from well of power) and of course higher damage from order of pain . no life steal is bad but w.e .. i can't make a good build with OotV -.-

I am not seeing why you're having a problem running both.

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Originally Posted by Lusciious

a SoS Restoration Rit is the best . Sorry . Just proven it over and over again ...

SoS + Painful Bond + 47 damage x 5 splinter weapon + Heals > OotV

OoV has huge potential as well. Mass physical AoE attacks such as Barrage/Whirlwind/Scythes trigger OoV multiple times.

OoV also heals and the life becomes significant when there is heavy pressure.

It is also not as if OoV cannot run splinter or any of the other rit weapon spells. They are easily one of the most customizable heroes.

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Originally Posted by Lusciious

Look . with a hybrid SoS Rit, you don't have to get another healer . that means you get to bring 4 physicals . and this means that SoS wins

We want to make the most out of mark of pain . not OotV . Against high AL foes mainly bosses, we have painful bond + 3 spirits . against normal foes, we have a very strong splinter weapon . and henchmen don't always have 25/33% ias . neither do casters with spears .

You can bring 4 physicals so SoS wins? You're asking for a wipe. Are you serious that a SoS rit is supposed to be enough of a healer to replace a dedicated one? Even if the other one is an infuser, that team will be having great difficulty in higher PvE. If it isn't higher PvE then your heroes doesn't matter enough to go into detail and specifics.

Lusciious · Feb 05, 2010, 10:34 PM // 22:34

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OoV has huge potential as well. Mass physical AoE attacks such as Barrage/Whirlwind/Scythes trigger OoV multiple times.

That's single aoe attack . yes i know OoV triggers more than once but you're still hitting each foe for 1 time . My 14 channelling splinter > your 10 channelling splinter .

damage difference ? 12 ? OotV takes a longer time to cast than Splinter .

And i have 3 x 50 armour ignoring damage every 2 seconds that is only affected by prots . Can a party of 8 physicals do that high ? you might say that all of them have IAS but how can healers have IAS ? Bows with IAS don't attack much faster than normal .

150 / 8 = roughly 20. yes swords, axes, spears can attack faster than spirits .

Lets say you have 2 physical heroes + you + a healer hero and my team of 4 casters (MoP Nuker, ER Renewal, OoV Channelling Nec, MM) = 8 physicals

Chances are your heroes would have to constantly be on IAS + no blind to beat 150 additional damage. And your heroes would have to be warriors in order to achieve this . Rangers with 33% IAS cannot attack twice in 2 seconds. Don't forget that my splinter does higher damage and your warriors have to run around when changing targets. my spirits don't .

You keep talking about higher PvE yet you don't know the importance of HP ?

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ust because a ER Infuser CAN keep the HP up doesn't mean it should. Losing a third of HP from Awaken and OoV is unnecessary and puts the necro at risk

Alright then . We shall not use Awaken the blood and the nec shall only use OoV when it is at full hp . and my ER infuser will not help . That would reduce your DPS by how much ? How long does it take to regen 17% of your life back ? Okay maybe you don't have to wait till your full hp . just let the nec sacrifice itself to death ?

Another problem is ER protters don't spam as fast as human ER healers . Infuse someone and if was a target of the spike then good bye . I've seen my ER protter do nothing after an infuse . why ? and even if he did something, there would be a time when he would not have ER up . or maybe ER was stripped . How is he gonna get his own hp back ?

The purpose of Infuse is to catch spikes ? Do heroes know that ? They'd rather infuse a minion then to keep their own hp up -.-

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OotV Nec = SoS Restoration Support Rit > Order of Pain Nec > Others

i agree with this . however i find SoS rits to be at the top .

The SoS Restoration Rit have 2 wide party heals which adds up to 200 hp . 172 hp spike heal and a 100+ condition heal . I think that is more than enough to survive any form of pressure whatsoever and that it can replace a dedicated healer .

IMO, an ER protter = 1 1/3 healer . so i just need another 2/3 healer would suffice . you only need 2 healers .

3/3 healers = dedicated healers .

2/3 healers = hybrid but leans more to the healing side .

4/3 or 1 1/3 = very strong healer .

Besides, how long do you plan on taking to kill ? Pull properly and you wouldn't have a problem . And you have spirits helping to boost your damage . You don't take 10 mins to kill a balanced group of 8 . Cast enfeebling blood on physicals and target the castor in the middle .

Yes i do not deny the fact that spirits have low hp . but get spirit leech aura and armour of unfeeling and your problems is solved .

please correct my mistakes if you find any .

MasterSasori · Feb 06, 2010, 07:39 AM // 07:39

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Originally Posted by Lusciious

That's single aoe attack . yes i know OoV triggers more than once but you're still hitting each foe for 1 time . My 14 channelling splinter > your 10 channelling splinter .

Multiple hits = large life steal chunk. If you are running a Rit primary for SoS, it should be at 16. My GDW> your lvl 16 splinter weapon.

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Originally Posted by Lusciious

damage difference ? 12 ? OotV takes a longer time to cast than Splinter .

Splinter goes on one person. OoV goes on 8.

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Originally Posted by Lusciious

And i have 3 x 50 armour ignoring damage every 2 seconds that is only affected by prots . Can a party of 8 physicals do that high ? you might say that all of them have IAS but how can healers have IAS ? Bows with IAS don't attack much faster than normal .

That's assuming that the spirits are placed correctly and aren't on recharge and aren't dead. Heroes don't do as much damage with their spirits as people do because they position it horribly so damage isn't always being dealt. They also die easier because the spirits can't be moved, the hero casts the spirits in a dangerous area, and their spawning is lower due to the att split into restoration. If humans aren't using their split into restoration, which is very frequent, it's into communing with AoU or at least more spirits.

I also don't know what retard would bring a party of 8 physical to a team unless its paragons. But yes, physicals using AoE can do higher and they can also add in KD, either from themselves or GDW. An example - 100lolz

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Originally Posted by Lusciious

Lets say you have 2 physical heroes + you + a healer hero and my team of 4 casters (MoP Nuker, ER Renewal, OoV Channelling Nec, MM) = 8 physicals

You do realize that the build of "your team" is what Higher Minion and I have been using for a while right? And wait a minute - where is your SoS rit in this group? Would you mind explaining why I would be bringing 8 physicals?

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Originally Posted by Lusciious

Chances are your heroes would have to constantly be on IAS + no blind to beat 150 additional damage. And your heroes would have to be warriors in order to achieve this . Rangers with 33% IAS cannot attack twice in 2 seconds. Don't forget that my splinter does higher damage and your warriors have to run around when changing targets. my spirits don't .

My heroes aren't physical. I've never tried running all physicals with 1 OoV and I do not intent to do so either. You also didn't mention where your SoS rits fit into your team.

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Originally Posted by Lusciious

You keep talking about higher PvE yet you don't know the importance of HP ?

No you don't know the importance of HP or you wouldn't be suggesting a minor on the rit. It is easy to run a superior rune in PvE because there are no true, targeted spikes. The vast majority of damage can be easily protected and thus, running a minor rune is a waste.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

Alright then . We shall not use Awaken the blood and the nec shall only use OoV when it is at full hp . and my ER infuser will not help . That would reduce your DPS by how much ? How long does it take to regen 17% of your life back ? Okay maybe you don't have to wait till your full hp . just let the nec sacrifice itself to death ?

I'm not saying that the necro shouldn't use OoV when the life isn't full and it's not as if it does it anyway - the hero consistently uses OoV, often when the health is dangerously low. However, the 17% and 33% is a huge difference when saccing life and the extra life steal from OoV at 18 instead of 16 isn't worth it. If the pressure steps in, the ER can't always save the necro's ass. If the OoV kicks the bucket, then you've just lost your Red Bar Up right there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

i agree with this . however i find SoS rits to be at the top .

The SoS Restoration Rit have 2 wide party heals which adds up to 200 hp . 172 hp spike heal and a 100+ condition heal . I think that is more than enough to survive any form of pressure whatsoever and that it can replace a dedicated healer .

People don't use restoration SoS rits because N/Rt restores just fine and the typical hero SoS is a dedicated damage dealer with decent secondary heals. Is it strong enough to survive any form of pressure? No. They're hardy but there is little to no difference between that and the N/Rt. What N/Rt lacks in stronger heals, the necro makes up in energy. Since your rit is probably also using PwK, the energy bar is even smaller and after a single painful bond and a splinter, energy is almost up.

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Originally Posted by Lusciious

Yes i do not deny the fact that spirits have low hp . but get spirit leech aura and armour of unfeeling and your problems is solved .

please correct my mistakes if you find any .

Far from it.

Unless you plan to split your atts into 4, you can't go communing for AoU. Use SLA and you've just taken up a slot of the incredibly full rit bar. At best you must take out a heal, which is a bad investment on your secondary healer.

The ideal split is 12 channel, 11 restoration, 6 spawning. Even with this split, spirits are still going to die. Spirit life and armor is too low, they have no heal, spirits can't be repositioned and positioning is often bad in the first place. If you're not convinced, watch Xandra the next time you do Forgewight.

Lusciious · Feb 06, 2010, 08:16 AM // 08:16

It looks like this is going to lead into a very big argument so firstly.. let me clarify something.

If i have offended you in whatsoever way, do accept my sincere apologies. I happen to be ignorant .

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My GDW> your lvl 16 splinter weapon.

Your GDW does not do AOE attack . Neither does GDW work on yourself .

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Splinter goes on one person. OoV goes on 8.

Dont forget you're comparing an elite with a non elite .

How bout SoS + Painful Bond + Splinter (14 channelling) against OoV (16 blood) + Splinter (10 channelling)?

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You do realize that the build of "your team" is what Higher Minion and I are using right? And wait a minute - where is your SoS rit in this group? Would you mind explaining why I would be bringing 8 physicals?

The SoS Rit would replace an OoV Nec .

Shouldn't a team with a lot of physical support be filled with physicals ? and by 8 physicals, i also mean casters + spears . you probably misunderstood what i meant .

anyway,

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No you don't know the importance of HP or you wouldn't be suggesting a minor on the rit. It is easy to run a superior rune in PvE because there are no true, targeted spikes. The vast majority of damage can be easily protected and thus, running a minor rune is a waste.

Why do they suggest you to get as high hp as possible in the survivor talk page of GWW ? I quote ...

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. A high health not only improves your general survivability, but also makes you a less desirable target for the monster AI.

I guess if what you're saying .. that there are no true, targeted spike then what i've bolded is complete BS ? And how would a single prot spirit be able to save your team from wide party AoE damage from an Ele boss ?

Proper positioning ? Yeah . So what is proper positioning ?

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My point I was arguing with you is that it won't matter much if there is a 17% sac in life, but a heavy 33% sac is too high, even with an Infuser. There may not be much of a problem for some places but if the pressure is relatively high, the ER can't always save the necro's ass. If the OoV kicks the bucket, then you've just lost your Red Bar Up right there.

where did 33% sac come from ? just so you know, awaken the blood just increases sacrifice by 50% . 17 x 1.5 = 26% an infuser has a 50% loss of current hp from infuse .

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I didn't quote the rest of your response on ER infusers because it doesn't pertain to anything I'm talking about and I have no idea why you added it in.

Apparently neither do i . I was probably thinking about 50% sac and how humans can catch spikes better than heroes . since the 50% sac is i guess considered a spike .

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I'm not saying that the necro shouldn't use OoV when the life isn't full and it's not as if it does it anyway - the hero consistently uses OoV, often when the health is dangerously low. However, the 17% and 33% is a huge difference when saccing life and the extra life steal from OoV at 18 instead of 16 isn't worth it.

You state that the extra life steal from OoV at 18 and 16 (sup runes) or even from 16 and 14 (minor runes) isn't worth it since it's only 2 more right ? And health sacrificed increased from 17 to 26. an additional 9% . How much is 9% ? if you had 600 hp, 9% would be 54 hp. a total of 156 hp (600 * 0.26) .

Now tell me . A superior rune increases blood magic from 14 to 16 . An additional of 2 more life steal . How much hp do you lose from using a superior rune ? 75 . That is constant life gone . Your maximum hp is reduced . so 525 left . and if you used OoV (17% sac), you lose another 89 hp (525 * 0.17). 75 + 89 = ? 164 hp .

You lose even more hp than i do with a constant loss of 75 hp . And you find that better ? So my minor blood nec + awaken the blood ( 16 blood ) loses less health than your superior blood nec w/o awaken the blood . Care to explain ? whats more, You say that 9% extra health sac is not worth it for that 2 more life steal . so why would you want constant 75 hp loss from using that sup rune ?

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People don't use restoration SoS rits because N/Rt restores just fine and the typical hero SoS is a dedicated damage dealer with decent secondary heals. Is it strong enough to survive any form of pressure? No. They're hardy but there is little to no difference between that and the N/Rt. What N/Rt lacks in stronger heals, the necro makes up in energy. Since your rit is probably also using PwK, the energy bar is even smaller and after a single painful bond and a splinter, energy is almost up.

Don't forget that an SoS rit damages whereas N/Rt doesn't . No i don't use PwK . and even if i did, i have spirit siphon . That's rits new energy management skill .

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Heroes don't do as much damage with their spirits as people do because they position it horribly so damage isn't always being dealt.

Apparently, i don't prot myself and go into a group . I let them come to me . With the attack radius of spirits, bad positioning doesn't always mean it's a bad thing .

Edit: Yes, I've finally come to the conclusion, due to you countering everything i say about SoS Rits, that an OoV is better than an SoS Restoration Rit . However, i still feel that a 14 BM OoV is better than a 16 BM OoV . unless you can prove my calculations wrong .

MasterSasori · Feb 06, 2010, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

It looks like this is going to lead into a very big argument so firstly.. let me clarify something.

If i have offended you in whatsoever way, do accept my sincere apologies. I happen to be ignorant .

I'm not offended by anything but the hp comment. Consider it dropped since there is no point arguing about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

Your GDW does not do AOE attack . Neither does GDW work on yourself .

The purpose of using GDW with physicals is to let the Physicals with the AoE abuse it to the greatest possibility. 100 blades, whirlwind, scythe attacks, barrage are all begging for GDW to be used. Splinter is incredibly powerful and is one of the biggest pros for any channeling user, but GDW still beats it out despite its drawbacks when abused.

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Originally Posted by Lusciious

How bout SoS + Painful Bond + Splinter (14 channelling) against OoV (16 blood) + Splinter (10 channelling)?

The SoS Rit would replace an OoV Nec .

OoV is customizable to anything you want, but switching it out with SoS can change the team significantly despite having similar properties.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

Shouldn't a team with a lot of physical support be filled with physicals ? and by 8 physicals, i also mean casters + spears . you probably misunderstood what i meant .

In that case, every team in gw should be 8 physicals because spear+shield set is incredibly useful for armor, hp, and adren gaining purposes.

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Originally Posted by Lusciious

Why do they suggest you to get as high hp as possible in the survivor talk page of GWW ? I quote ...

If you are going for survivors, you should get to r3 before doing any high end PvE. Otherwise you're asking for trouble because it don't matter if you have the best team in gw, you're still going to die if your dog trips over your router and you dc.

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Originally Posted by Lusciious

I guess if what you're saying .. that there are no true, targeted spike then what i've bolded is complete BS ? And how would a single prot spirit be able to save your team from wide party AoE damage from an Ele boss ?

What you highlighted is not BS but it can be misleading.

I'm not sure whether or not you are referring to survivability as in not wanting to wipe or the title. If its the title, you should probably have your hero's HP lower than yours.

Otherwise if you're talking about team survival, then know that the general behavior of the AI is to attack those with not only least hp but weakest armor and closest proximity. The AI does not automatically switch and all target the character with the least hp. So although there is no spike, there is still large general damage swinging in your direction and the party member with the least hp or armor is most prone to death.

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Originally Posted by Lusciious

Proper positioning ? Yeah . So what is proper positioning ?

Proper positioning is something as simple as common sense such as not setting up SoS down a hill or behind a rock. Unfortunately heroes, don't always get wind of that. People don't realize how important it is because they just Summon Spirit the spirits away when the area is inconvenient for them. Otherwise they'd realize how much putting a spirit in a certain position matters. Unless you flag them back or have a spear/shield set, they tend to come into the fray of battle if you get too close to the monsters and they begin summoning them there where every monster and its mother can start trampling the hell out of the spirit. Spirits automatically attack the creature thats endangering it and does not leave you enough time to call out a target for the spirits to follow.

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Originally Posted by Lusciious

where did 33% sac come from ? just so you know, awaken the blood just increases sacrifice by 50% . 17 x 1.5 = 26% an infuser has a 50% loss of current hp from infuse .

Yes I meant 26%. I don't know where the 33% came from. A 17% cut in life is significant but a larger increase starts to become dangerous and the infuser is more inclined to infuse the necro. In all, this risk is unnecessary as the benefits do not outweigh the risks.

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Originally Posted by Lusciious

You lose even more hp than i do with a constant loss of 75 hp . And you find that better ? So my minor blood nec + awaken the blood ( 16 blood ) loses less health than your superior blood nec w/o awaken the blood . Care to explain ? whats more, You say that 9% extra health sac is not worth it for that 2 more life steal . so why would you want constant 75 hp loss from using that sup rune ?

A 14 with awaken =/=16 blood magic because it take up a slot unnecessarily and as an enchantment, it can be removed. The constant 75 hp loss isn't as important because the real danger comes from the sudden fluctuation in life loss. Though it is obvious that 25%>17%, you have to consider that you are actually losing more than that percentage with awaken the blood because max hp are not the same as 14 should have 75 hp higher. Every use of OoV is a risk and a 25% change from an even higher hp will require more heal and time from a healer and closer attention. In addition, it is likely that OoV necro is probably going to be under PS so the lower hp isn't as significant as the majority of the dangerous damage will be over the 10% anyway.

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Originally Posted by Lusciious

Don't forget that an SoS rit damages whereas N/Rt doesn't . No i don't use PwK . and even if i did, i have spirit siphon . That's rits new energy management skill .

It depends on what the N/Rt does. Although the SoS rit does damage, it is still primarily a damage dealer and thus, will not focus its entire attention to healing. The bigger problem is that SoS rit, like all heroes, run out of energy. SS is a godsend, but I've caught the rits using SS too often to net less energy than what they started off with before casting the spell.

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Originally Posted by Lusciious

Apparently, i don't prot myself and go into a group . I let them come to me . With the attack radius of spirits, bad positioning doesn't always mean it's a bad thing .

Be nice to your monk and to yourself and let preprotting be easy and give them a target. When you let the monsters come to you, you let them choose their targets and it makes things a bit of a mess. It's also harder to AP-MoP if you don't get them into a tight bunch and usually a bait sends them all swarming into the middle.

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Originally Posted by Lusciious

Edit: Yes, I've finally come to the conclusion, due to you countering everything i say about SoS Rits, that an OoV is better than an SoS Restoration Rit . However, i still feel that a 14 BM OoV is better than a 16 BM OoV . unless you can prove my calculations wrong .

No this is not what I am trying to get to. In fact, there are many times I rather than the SoS rit over the OoV. My point is that there are alot of factors that must be considered when balancing a team and though often it is being overcautious/paranoid, it may be necessary to avoid alot of headaches later.

I stick with my 16 BM OoV because the 14 BM + Awaken is an unnecessary risk and if you are going to stick with 14 BM, you might as well run the ER Blood orders which gives you OoP+Dark Fury and doesn't kill itself unlike its necro counterpart.

Lusciious · Feb 06, 2010, 10:13 AM // 10:13

I'm selfish . I like GDW on myself but sadly i'm a caster and GDW isn't maximized if casted on me . I won't bring GDW unless i have a hero who has an AoE attack e.g. barrage .

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OoV is customizable to anything you want, but switching it out with SoS can change the team significantly despite having similar properties.

Like you said in one of the posts in pages 2-3, an OoV nec would have OoV, Mark of Fury and Strip Enchantment . 5 optionals . Which secondary class can fill in all those optionals ?

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Though it is obvious that 25%>17%, you have to consider that you are actually losing more than that percentage with awaken the blood because max hp are not the same as 14 should have 75 hp higher

yes i have taken that into my consideration that's why i did 600 * 0.25 = health sacced by a nec with a minor using awaken and 525 * 0.17 = health sacced by a nec with a sup .

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the real danger comes from the sudden fluctuation in life loss.

i never really thought of it that way . that's for enlightening me in that area .

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Be nice to your monk and to yourself and let preprotting be easy and give them a target.

my monks have no feelings . heroes

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No this is not what I am trying to get to. In fact, there are many times I rather than the SoS rit over the OoV.

But that's what got me to that conclusion .

OoP + Dark Fury is vastly inferior to OoV + Mark of Fury so i have to decline your suggestion .

I have myself decided to try out a sup rune on my OoV nec .

In areas where there is a vast area of land e.g. no hills etc, i would bring SoS Rit because their attacks won't be blocked .

Sometimes OoV > SoS . vice versa .

edit: i just played with an OoU MM instead of AotL MB . When you have 10 minions with a MM and OoU, nothing lasts for more than 5 seconds . xD

Your party has extra armour ignoring damage via OoV and the minions have OoU xD

I've decided to replace my AotL MB with OoU MM .

HigherMinion · Feb 06, 2010, 11:39 AM // 11:39

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Originally Posted by Lusciious

I'm selfish . I like GDW on myself but sadly i'm a caster and GDW isn't maximized if casted on me . I won't bring GDW unless i have a hero who has an AoE attack e.g. barrage .

That's not selfishness, that's greed. GDW works perfectly for taking down large groups of monks and outputting a little more damage. It can also be maintained on more than one ally. ALLY=Party-member, summon skill, pet, minion.

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edit: i just played with an OoU MM instead of AotL MB . When you have 10 minions with a MM and OoU, nothing lasts for more than 5 seconds . xD

Your party has extra armour ignoring damage via OoV and the minions have OoU xD

I've decided to replace my AotL MB with OoU MM .

I had been using OoU on my MM for a long time, it does work alot better than people say. Sometimes I still switch to it, but I haven't been using h/h recently.

Lusciious · Feb 06, 2010, 12:07 PM // 12:07

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That's not selfishness, that's greed. GDW works perfectly for taking down large groups of monks and outputting a little more damage. It can also be maintained on more than one ally. ALLY=Party-member, summon skill, pet, minion.

it's a weapon spell . OoV (according to your build) has 3 weapon spells . chances are high that one of them takes over GDW . unless heroes have been programmed not to cast weapon spell on a target who already have a weapon spell .

I just tried OoU . I charged in a mob . I died cause my MM was strolling behind . and when he came, he obliterated everything o.o any only 1 minion died .

Would OoU MM or AotL MB synergize better with MoP ? I'm guessing MB since you want as many minions as possible to proc MoP . But OoU just makes Minions damage so much . and they can even tank !

Edit: Come to think of it, any lv 18-20 minions can tank >.>

testing OoU in low corpse areas .

results : in low corpse areas, OoU doesn't perform alot better than AotL . Kinda like bombing more anyway.

Would you guys use OoU or AotL ?

MasterSasori · Feb 06, 2010, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

I'm selfish . I like GDW on myself but sadly i'm a caster and GDW isn't maximized if casted on me . I won't bring GDW unless i have a hero who has an AoE attack e.g. barrage .

Look at it this way. By using GDW, you potentially save time. When you save time, you are doing everyone a favor. If you don't bring it when you have humans around, you're actually being selfish and using up people's time. See how I just flipped it all around?

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Originally Posted by Lusciious

Like you said in one of the posts in pages 2-3, an OoV nec would have OoV, Mark of Fury and Strip Enchantment . 5 optionals . Which secondary class can fill in all those optionals ?

Yes but I wouldn't run OoV when my team is majority casters that aren't humans.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

yes i have taken that into my consideration that's why i did 600 * 0.25 = health sacced by a nec with a minor using awaken and 525 * 0.17 = health sacced by a nec with a sup .

i never really thought of it that way . that's for enlightening me in that area .

Yes higher health is all the more difference in life loss.

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Originally Posted by Lusciious

my monks have no feelings . heroes

Tahlkora will remember this when she gets your voltaic spear drop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

OoP + Dark Fury is vastly inferior to OoV + Mark of Fury so i have to decline your suggestion.

Vastly inferior is an overstatement. Be wary of using such terms if you have not tested it extensively. I do not like OoP+DF but this combination is good and very usable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

edit: i just played with an OoU MM instead of AotL MB . When you have 10 minions with a MM and OoU, nothing lasts for more than 5 seconds . xD

Your party has extra armour ignoring damage via OoV and the minions have OoU xD

I've decided to replace my AotL MB with OoU MM .

.....

Would OoU MM or AotL MB synergize better with MoP ? I'm guessing MB since you want as many minions as possible to proc MoP . But OoU just makes Minions damage so much . and they can even tank !

Would you guys use OoU or AotL ?

Where are you testing this? Minions are too unreliable to activate MoP so really it doesn't matter which one you use - it's only a matter of preference. The reason why people don't use OoU is because the heroes don't always use it right and that humans use OoU more effectively than heroes do. Though I am not sure how significant this difference makes, note that MM heroes are usually thought of being superior to MM humans.

I would, but it depends on what kind of set up I have.

Lusciious · Feb 06, 2010, 03:33 PM // 15:33

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Look at it this way. By using GDW, you potentially save time. When you save time, you are doing everyone a favor. If you don't bring it when you have humans around, you're actually being selfish and using up people's time. See how I just flipped it all around?

I h/h almost everything . I'll only be wasting my own time .

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Yes but I wouldn't run OoV when my team is majority casters that aren't humans.

Well .. 5 casters with spears and 3 physicals . I would probably be attacking quite alot to proc mop . so it's 4 casters and 4 physicals . is that too few physicals ?

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Vastly inferior is an overstatement. Be wary of using such terms if you have not tested it extensively. I do not like OoP+DF but this combination is good and very usable.

Yes i've tried it . Well of Power, OoP, DF/Mark of Fury, instead of OoV, Mark of Fury, Well of power (optional).

Similar to barbs, against monster skills such as turtle shell all these extra damage would be reduced . OoV on the other hand bypasses them all/most of them.

okay then . not vastly inferior . but it cannot be compared to an elite version of it .

and wells are not nice to use . you won't know which corpse you'd be exploiting.

a good thing about OoP is that heroes (at least mine does) seem to maintain this since it doesn't have a recharge .

Quote:

Where are you testing this? Minions are too unreliable to activate MoP so really it doesn't matter which one you use - it's only a matter of preference. The reason why people don't use OoU is because the heroes don't always use it right and that humans use OoU more effectively than heroes do. Though I am not sure how significant this difference makes, note that MM heroes are usually thought of being superior to MM humans.

I would, but it depends on what kind of set up I have.

I tested this in Eotn in drakkar lake .

Minions do sometimes listen to what you're targeting. feels like it anyway. I've seen on my screen more than 10 x 42 shadow damage on a adjacent foe because of all the physical damage proc-ing mop.

Anyway,

Do you prefer a Minion master (preserving minions with Blood of the master) or Minion bomber ?

Could i use animate bone minions with an OoU MM ? like a hybrid MM / MB . animate bone minions because they spawn minions faster, although their attack speed might be lower than animate bone fiends, and animate vampiric horror to counter life loss .

also, which do you prefer ? OoV + mark of fury + well of blood (optional) or well of power + OoP + mark of fury / dark fury ?

HigherMinion · Feb 06, 2010, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

I tested this in Eotn in drakkar lake .

Minions do sometimes listen to what you're targeting. feels like it anyway. I've seen on my screen more than 10 x 42 shadow damage on a adjacent foe because of all the physical damage proc-ing mop.

Anyway,

Do you prefer a Minion master (preserving minions with Blood of the master) or Minion bomber ?

Could i use animate bone minions with an OoU MM ? like a hybrid MM / MB . animate bone minions because they spawn minions faster, although their attack speed might be lower than animate bone fiends, and animate vampiric horror to counter life loss .

also, which do you prefer ? OoV + mark of fury + well of blood (optional) or well of power + OoP + mark of fury / dark fury ?

Firstly, I prefer OoV+MoF due to the lifesteal.

About the OoU build, this is what I ran:

1.Order Of Undeath.
2.Animate Bone Fiend.
3.Animate Bone Minions.
4.Blood Of The Master.
5.Fall Back.
6.We Shall Return.
7.Signet Of Lost Souls.
8.Masochism.

It produces good results, and a LOT of damage. It's like a second barbs+Ebosh for minion clusters.

If there are problems with BotM, either disable it or change it for Putrid Bile for a bit more damage; or maybe more energy management.

Lusciious · Feb 06, 2010, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

About the OoU build, this is what I ran:

1.Order Of Undeath.
2.Animate Bone Fiend.
3.Animate Bone Minions.
4.Blood Of The Master.
5.Fall Back.
6.We Shall Return.
7.Signet Of Lost Souls.
8.Masochism.

It produces good results, and a LOT of damage. It's like a second barbs+Ebosh for minion clusters.

If there are problems with BotM, either disable it or change it for Putrid Bile for a bit more damage; or maybe more energy management.

but you changed to AotL yes ? you mentioned that in the first page of this thread . why ? because it raises minions faster ? what are a few advantages for a hero to use OoU over AotL .

i might just bring EBSoH to make up for some more damage when using AotL on my hero . I have a free pve slot anyway .

MasterSasori · Feb 07, 2010, 02:43 AM // 02:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

but you changed to AotL yes ? you mentioned that in the first page of this thread . why ? because it raises minions faster ? what are a few advantages for a hero to use OoU over AotL .

i might just bring EBSoH to make up for some more damage when using AotL on my hero . I have a free pve slot anyway .

Comparing OoU and AotL would be pointless because they do not serve the same purposes. What I mean by this is that AotL is supposed to be for a MB (some use it as a MM) build while OoU is strictly MM. In a MB, you want the minions to die as that is where the damage is coming from. This is not true for MM, for MMs, you want to preserve your minions.

In addition:

AotL gives you minions now instead of waiting for a corpse. OoU also has a nasty habit of not being optimal on a hero and can cause a hero to die needlessly.

AotL bar shouldn't have a needless space.

Lusciious · Feb 07, 2010, 04:32 AM // 04:32

Firstly, I wasn't comparing OoU with AotL. I was just asking why he decided to drop OoU to AotL ?

Has a minion bomber been proven to be better than a minion master ?

In areas where there are not a lot of corpses or even to an extent low corpse areas, would a MM be better than MB ?

I don't like the long recharge of jagged bones. I don't know why people like their heroes to have it other then heroes being able to use them better than humans can .

maxxfury · Feb 07, 2010, 05:22 AM // 05:22

Hero's are crap at using OuU, they dont spam it on recharge in a fight, they are stupid..hence they use AotL better, cos its a much easier and less taxing thing for them to do..At least in my past exp, heroes blow with Oud

sadly. And dont have access to EBsoH..

OuD for a human minion MASTER! for damage output.
AotL/Jagged* or some bitch elite for cleaning phys on a Hero minion BOMBER.

*not a big fan of jagged tbh.

In a low corpse area, depending how low, i wouldnt bring any toon thats reliant on minions in the first place

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Has a minion bomber been proven to be better than a minion master ?

A human OuD master will output more damage than any bomber will. ^

Lusciious · Feb 07, 2010, 05:56 AM // 05:56

Whats OuU and OuD ? xD OoU ?

Neither am i a big fan of jagged bones . I used to like em a lot but now they are barely comparable to AotL . I love 11 lv 21 minions xD .

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A human OuD master will output more damage than any bomber will. ^

Hero wise, Would an OoU MM or AotL / Jagged Bones MB have a higher output damage ?

What about a OoU MB Hybrid ? o.o

Order of Undeath, Animate bone minions ( for bombing ), Animate vampiric horror, death nova, masochism, foul feast, plague sending, Fall back! ?

MasterSasori · Feb 07, 2010, 06:57 AM // 06:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

Firstly, I wasn't comparing OoU with AotL. I was just asking why he decided to drop OoU to AotL ?

Has a minion bomber been proven to be better than a minion master ?

In areas where there are not a lot of corpses or even to an extent low corpse areas, would a MM be better than MB ?

I don't like the long recharge of jagged bones. I don't know why people like their heroes to have it other then heroes being able to use them better than humans can .

The purpose of my comparison is to show why Minion chose AotL over OoU. There are situations where AotL work better. They are used more efficiently on heroes, you begin a fight with a minion, and you're not prone to danger under pressure from stupidity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

Hero wise, Would an OoU MM or AotL / Jagged Bones MB have a higher output damage ?

What about a OoU MB Hybrid ? o.o

Order of Undeath, Animate bone minions ( for bombing ), Animate vampiric horror, death nova, masochism, foul feast, plague sending, Fall back! ?

I never tested OoU well so I wouldn't know but considering all risks and benefits, AotL is the more popular one due to its ease of use.

OoU MB hybrid is a bad idea because OoU and MB are trying to accomplish different things. Either run one or the other.

upier · Feb 07, 2010, 07:53 AM // 07:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Hero's are crap at using OuU, they dont spam it on recharge in a fight, they are stupid..hence they use AotL better, cos its a much easier and less taxing thing for them to do.

Just bitching about this - they do NOT use AotL well.
AotL needs to be spammed on recharge, since that allows you to obtain minions that are 2 levels higher. (You use it once, that raises your Death by one - you use it a second time before it runs out and the game raises your already raised Death by one, raising the level of minions by one once again and increasing the length by a few secs once again.)
Heroes fail at that - which means you end up with +1 level minions instead of +2 levels.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

About the OoU build, this is what I ran:

1.Order Of Undeath.
2.Animate Bone Fiend.
3.Animate Bone Minions.
4.Blood Of The Master.
5.Fall Back.
6.We Shall Return.
7.Signet Of Lost Souls.
8.Masochism.

How come Minions and not Horrors?

Lusciious · Feb 07, 2010, 08:36 AM // 08:36

that was what i was thinking too .

anyway,

I realise how much I use MoP (shadow/armour ignoring damage) and how often i see 42 damage . However, what i didn't realise is that you don't find a lot of skills which reduces the damage of MoP even though there are a lot of skills which are capable of reducing armour ignoring damage .

Because of the fact that OoV deals extra life steal in small packs, shielding hands / turtle shell can reduce it to 0 . However when i took my SoS Rit to complete eternal grove, siege turtles couldn't reduce the spirits damage because it was too high and i killed it much quicker than what i thought it would take . i could barely touch it with OoV / Barbs . My point is that although life stealing is always better than armour ignoring damage, small packets of life steal cannot beat high armour ignoring damage (even though they add up to the same amount) . but yeah .. you don't encounter a lot of these skills which render small damage packs useless .

So i can come to the conclusion that life steal in large packets > armour ignoring damage in large packets > life steal in small packets > armour ignoring damage in small packets > rest .

Holy / Shadow damage / spirit attacks = Armour ignoring .

Life steal = life steal . Life steal has no damage type .

Although life steal is always better since there are fewer prots that can negate life steal, large armour ignoring damage works just fine . So that means i'm going with an SoS Rit instead of OoV Nec . I have yet to have any problems with my SoS Rit . I almost died in a few occasions with an OoV Nec .

Yes i know how you said that heroes position spirits badly . well .. i don't have a solution for that but i guess it worked fine for me up to now so yeah .. i'll just see how it goes . And i don't have to rely on many physicals for damage dealt by OoV to be up to par with SoS . which means blind doesn't reduce my DPS much but it would affect my DPS a lot if i used OoV .

apparently, i did very badly when our team had to split up in that mish . OoV didn't help my team much since it was 4 casters with spears . and i was the one (with minions) attacking the most .

Also, what kind of damage is the additional damage done by attack skills e.g. death blossom .

at rank 12, it does +40 damage . I don't think any skills can reduce this damage . other than prot spirit / prot bond . Have yet to test it .

edit:

Quote:

AotL needs to be spammed on recharge, since that allows you to obtain minions that are 2 levels higher. (You use it once, that raises your Death by one - you use it a second time before it runs out and the game raises your already raised Death by one, raising the level of minions by one once again and increasing the length by a few secs once again.)
Heroes fail at that - which means you end up with +1 level minions instead of +2 levels.

that is why i used a minor rune of death magic .

together with masochism, @16 DM, AotL lasts for 48 seconds . You want your hero to be spamming AotL as much as possible but with 18 DM, it's even worst without micro managing.

Since heroes would only cast AotL after it has ended, 15 DM is perfect since it lasts the exact duration it would take to recharge, 45 seconds. but at 15 DM, heroes can only control 9 minions . Might as well go 14 since you know that @14 DM, it wouldn't last as long as it's recharge and heroes, in theory, would spam it since they only cast it when it has expired.

If AotL can only be used to it's maximal potential by humans, it wouldn't be the best elite a human MM would use . a human OoU MM would 100% do more damage than if he were to go AotL and start MB-ing.