Curse

Quaker · May 13, 2010, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by raea29

I was wondering. what is the best 3 Hero builds to use with my Warrior for HM and should the ER Prott be one of them?

To go back to the original question - what criteria do you set for your definition of "best"? Fastest? Least micro-managed? Most enjoyable?

There is no definitive "best". There is only "best for a certain situation" or "best for certain criteria". My best answer is to try different things and see what works "best for you". If you are unable or unwilling to experiment yourself, go to PvXwiki and try out a few different pre-made builds and find one you like.
Beyond that, ignore the various ramblings about what is "best" and what "sux" and simply try to glean any useful suggestions for possible builds you might want to try. Then make up your own mind.

Daesu · May 14, 2010, 05:48 AM // 05:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

If you are unable or unwilling to experiment yourself, go to PvXwiki and try out a few different pre-made builds and find one you like.
Beyond that, ignore the various ramblings about what is "best" and what "sux" and simply try to glean any useful suggestions for possible builds you might want to try. Then make up your own mind.

What makes you think pvx builds are any superior to the builds here? And what makes you think pvx ramblings are worth more than the ramblings here?

Pvx build acceptance is highly political, once the friends of certain build masters rate it high, it will never be voted down from 'Great' even though the build itself is modified from bad to worse after a skill update, it would still be under the 'Great' ranking. Votes that pointed out the build flaws are promptly disregarded by the build master, regardless of how many people try to vote it down.

I trust the community here to still have a higher signal to noise ratio than the pvx community in general. The huge amount of free spams and flames in pvx is just ridiculous and they have to clean up bad page edits very often.

raea29 · May 14, 2010, 07:09 AM // 07:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

what criteria do you set for your definition of "best"? Fastest? Least micro-managed? Most enjoyable?

By best I mean a good all round HM build that can be easily altered for different areas and requires very little micromanagement other than pre casting PS. I don't want anything hugely complicated nor do I want a build that removes the enjoyment of the game. I am currently learning how to effectively corner block and use AoE but I'm not picking it up very fast.

I don't usually like being treated like a noob but after reading some of these forms I have a lot to get better at before I can call myself a decent player of GW so I am willing to accept all and any advice/criticism. =]

EFGJack · May 14, 2010, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by raea29

By best I mean a good all round HM build that can be easily altered for different areas and requires very little micromanagement other than pre casting PS. I don't want anything hugely complicated nor do I want a build that removes the enjoyment of the game. I am currently learning how to effectively corner block and use AoE but I'm not picking it up very fast.

I don't usually like being treated like a noob but after reading some of these forms I have a lot to get better at before I can call myself a decent player of GW so I am willing to accept all and any advice/criticism. =]

As others have pointed already, you should take a look at my thread http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/p...t10434178.html - you can get away with little micro-management and the build is flexible as my hero-builds have got only 3-4 required skills / each.

I posted links to videos of me playing in SoO and Slavers HM for tips & pointers. Check it out.

Eragon Zarroc · May 14, 2010, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

Any dedicated damage dealing build should match, if not exceed, Discordway's DPS on single targets on it's own. That's not even counting a Scythe's multi-hits, if you're running one of those.

Your retarded if you think a single melee char can out dmg 3 necros spamming 100dmg, armor ignoring discord on a single target...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

Any AoE build, like Axes or Hammers, runs completely counter to Discord. While you're trying to wipe out several enemies at once, your Heroes are pinging them down one at a time.

don't bring an aoe physical build with discord... bring a build that helps with the spikes on the targets you call.

Sankt Hallvard · May 14, 2010, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Riiiight...

There are some things I can't help but wonder, maybe you guys can clear it up since I basically do a lot more theorycrafting than actual playtesting.

Let's take this build for example, which was mentioned as a great build for OP earlier in this thread: http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team...ical_Hero_Team

The MM bar looks great. I still wonder if masochism is really worth it. Putrid bile should be on any MM IMO.

ER blood? What's the point? Sacrificing the elite just to maintain his own health? Should be able to spam those spells on a nec primary anyway, especially since you get OoV at 5e over OoP at 10e. Seems like a wasted char slot doing minimal support to me. Probably good for a 100b AI-abusing warrior though.

And what's with everyone taking smiting on 2ndary professions? SoH is the single best skill in pve, why give up on the extra dmg a primary monk with a major/superior rune can provide? The rit version doesn't even use its primary attribute. And what do you gain? Signet of spirits? What am I missing here? 3 lvl 11 spirits that will die in 3 hits even in NM. They don't deal any significant dmg but people are all in awe over these rits in pve. I just don't get it. Splinter at 14 gives you 1 extra attack over an attrib at 10. Not worth the cost, even if the skill is pretty good on a hero. Arage - 100 or so dmg every 10 secs, whoopdy fooken doo. Not worth it. Spirit siphon, are your heroes smarter than mine cause last time I checked they would target the nearest spirit regardless and with a 3s recharge they are likely to spam it at the cost of 5 and get no return essentially throwing energy away.

Daesu · May 14, 2010, 01:32 PM // 13:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eragon Zarroc

Your retarded if you think a single melee char can out dmg 3 necros spamming 100dmg, armor ignoring discord on a single target...

don't bring an aoe physical build with discord... bring a build that helps with the spikes on the targets you call.

Let me just put this as simply as possible to you since all the supporting arguments have already been posted on this thread and I can't be bothered to repeat myself. Discordway has been tested and failed to yield the kind of performance AoE damage can dish out in HM.

If you still think Discordway is superior, please prove us wrong:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/p...0425162p3.html

raea29 · May 14, 2010, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

ER blood? What's the point? Sacrificing the elite just to maintain his own health? Should be able to spam those spells on a nec primary anyway, especially since you get OoV at 5e over OoP at 10e. Seems like a wasted char slot doing minimal support to me. Probably good for a 100b AI-abusing warrior though.

And what's with everyone taking smiting on 2ndary professions? SoH is the single best skill in pve, why give up on the extra dmg a primary monk with a major/superior rune can provide? The rit version doesn't even use its primary attribute. And what do you gain? Signet of spirits? What am I missing here? 3 lvl 11 spirits that will die in 3 hits even in NM. They don't deal any significant dmg but people are all in awe over these rits in pve. I just don't get it. Splinter at 14 gives you 1 extra attack over an attrib at 10. Not worth the cost, even if the skill is pretty good on a hero. Arage - 100 or so dmg every 10 secs, whoopdy fooken doo. Not worth it. Spirit siphon, are your heroes smarter than mine cause last time I checked they would target the nearest spirit regardless and with a 3s recharge they are likely to spam it at the cost of 5 and get no return essentially throwing energy away.

Whats your ideal 3 heroes then. I know people say try your own things but what would you suggest?

Sankt Hallvard · May 14, 2010, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by raea29

Whats your ideal 3 heroes then. I know people say try your own things but what would you suggest?

I don't know to be honest. It just depends too much on what you run and where you plan on running it.

I guess we can assume the player is a melee, even though the thread title says physical. Then I would never leave home without SoH and probably bring more enchantments as well to cover it unless the area has absolutely no enchantment removal. I can see no reason not to bring a MM for any area, it would pretty much have to be an area with absolutely no corpses. The third slot should fill in the gaps. Again depending on whether you do HM or NM, for HM it would have to be some sort of extra prot(ER) or heal(n/rt).

Personally I rarely do HM at all, I just don't see the point. Ridiculous mobs pretty much requiring you to run "Tank'n'Spank" or otherwise abusing AI to not blow up. That's not my style at all. The drops aren't better either.

And I have to admit I can't be bothered to pve alone so I would only do it with a friend and thus bring 6 heroes, or even better bring 2 friends! In this case my standard/favourite setup involves: 2 a/w daggerspam with sys, 1 a/d wounding strike with EBSoH, 2 mm's, 1 smitemonk, 1 OoV blood/prot, 1 IV healer. Easy to run, no need to ball enemies(cheating IMO) with good defense and offense without overdoing either. It's balanced and honorable bringing up to 20 minions to the party that blow up to deal dmg(nova) and are replaced by better ones(jagged), putrid bile+iv doing aoe whenever the physicals kill something, big prot(ps), small prot(soa), 2 copies of aegis, partyhealing(d's sorrow/blood bond/OoV), plenty hex/condi removal, enchant removal and even stance removal if needed(wild strike).

tl;dr - 3 heroes: MM as mentioned, smitemonk and 3rd either curses, n/rt, ER or something else you need for the area. In that order of preference. But I understand mesmers will be buffed relatively soon so maybe that would make a great 3rd hero!

Myotheraccount · May 14, 2010, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Let me just put this as simply as possible to you since all the supporting arguments have already been posted on this thread and I can't be bothered to repeat myself. Discordway has been tested and failed to yield the kind of performance AoE damage can dish out in HM.

If you still think Discordway is superior, please prove us wrong:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/p...0425162p3.html

Stop creating group identity. Makes it look like you have a split personality. Even if you really do: stop now.

Discord is just overall inferior. Spiritway doesn't AoE much but it will yield best results for minimal effort involved. Has better wall, better damage, better everything. If you want to set records in Dungeons then you should probably be looking at tank & spanking. But you have to do more than smashing just face vs. keyboard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

ER blood? What's the point? Sacrificing the elite just to maintain his own health? Should be able to spam those spells on a nec primary anyway, especially since you get OoV at 5e over OoP at 10e. Seems like a wasted char slot doing minimal support to me. Probably good for a 100b AI-abusing warrior though.

What Necro elite? SS? Lol.
There are no Necro elites worth taking so you might as well have a hero with better energy management and massive health gain to combat sacs. OoV means no Dark Bond so less "SY!". But same dommags.
Also, that build is decent to c+space with any melee build, not just 100b warrior. ^^

syphonus · May 14, 2010, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eragon Zarroc

Your retarded if you think a single melee char can out dmg 3 necros spamming 100dmg, armor ignoring discord on a single target...

http://s305.photobucket.com/albums/n...emic/gw014.jpg

http://s305.photobucket.com/albums/n...emic/gw015.jpg

Enjoy.

fireflyry · May 14, 2010, 06:00 PM // 18:00

If your getting back into the game I'd roll Sabway for ease of use, at least till your familiar with the game mechanics again.

Once your ok at pulling, positioning, mitigation and want to blow stuff up take a MM and a couple of Rits aka Spiritway.

Splinter Weapon is gold.You really can't go wrong.

If you want to c-space with a caster bar roll Discord.Seriously one of the worst hero set-ups for a melee, or anything else.

Ever.

Fear The Apocalypse · May 14, 2010, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Take at least 1 ss/mop necro and use MOP on the target you attack. Say GG to mobs in either mode.

Daesu · May 15, 2010, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

What Necro elite? SS? Lol.
There are no Necro elites worth taking so you might as well have a hero with better energy management and massive health gain to combat sacs. OoV means no Dark Bond so less "SY!". But same dommags.
Also, that build is decent to c+space with any melee build, not just 100b warrior. ^^

Stop giving out terrible advice again and again. That pvx physical hero team build (http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team...ical_Hero_Team) plain sucks, even for a pvx fanboy like you.

So you think bringing OOP+DF with 3 caster heroes and 1 melee player is just fine. That is the classic mistake of trying to push too many features into a 3-heroes build that are better left for 6-heroes. Let's calculate the cost, DF+OOP is 34% life sac and 20e every 5s, not even counting AtB. Sure with ER and AoR it recovers most of the hp, but the hero AI does not cast ER whenever it renews. And even if it does, you will still have about 8s at least, without ER, wielding a 20% enchant staff.

All in all, he is definite to lose hp even when no monsters are hitting him. All this for the sake of supporting orders on 1 melee physical player and maybe crappy Aidan. Bring that team to an area with lots of burning/degen and you would start to feel it.

By the way, the variant build with the N/Rt is more realistic in HM and works better than the ER main build. Even this favorite build of yours recommended a necro elite of Ravenous Gaze or SV, despite you flaming him.

Dusk_ · May 15, 2010, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eragon Zarroc

Your retarded if you think a single melee char can out dmg 3 necros spamming 100dmg, armor ignoring discord on a single target...

Discord takes 1 second to cast, 2 seconds to recharge, and another 1 second to cast again.

That's 3 Heroes doing 600 damage in 4 seconds, meaning 150 DPS, under optimal conditions where they don't cast anything else in between. Three thirds of your team are devoted to dealing a pathetic amount of damage.

Have you even played a damage dealer before? If you can't even break 150 DPS, you are doing something seriously, seriously, seriously wrong.

Myotheraccount · May 15, 2010, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Stop giving out terrible advice again and again. That pvx physical hero team build (http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team...ical_Hero_Team) plain sucks, even for a pvx fanboy like you.

So you think bringing OOP+DF with 3 caster heroes and 1 melee player is just fine. That is the classic mistake of trying to push too many features into a 3-heroes build that are better left for 6-heroes. Let's calculate the cost, DF+OOP is 34% life sac and 20e every 5s, not even counting AtB. Sure with ER and AoR it recovers most of the hp, but the hero AI does not cast ER whenever it renews. And even if it does, you will still have about 8s at least, without ER, wielding a 20% enchant staff.

All in all, he is definite to lose hp even when no monsters are hitting him. All this for the sake of supporting orders on 1 melee physical player and maybe crappy Aidan. Bring that team to an area with lots of burning/degen and you would start to feel it.

By the way, the variant build with the N/Rt is more realistic in HM and works better than the ER main build. Even this favorite build of yours recommended a necro elite of Ravenous Gaze or SV, despite you flaming him.

Daesu butthurt again. You must of gotten shitstormed on PvX at some point for being so autistic. =/

There are no Necro elites that heroes can use well. So you might as well run ER for better energy management and health gain. It's a decent build, I see why people recomended it. Defenetely a sort of thing you should be running for c+spacing with a melee.

Dusk_ · May 15, 2010, 12:36 PM // 12:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

Daesu butthurt again. You must of gotten shitstormed on PvX at some point for being so autistic. =/

There are no Necro elites that heroes can use well. So you might as well run ER for better energy management and health gain. It's a decent build, I see why people recomended it. Defenetely a sort of thing you should be running for c+spacing with a melee.

OoP is only useful for Racway, with a minimum of 3 physicals, or for a HB War. Otherwise, it doesn't do anything. You could run SS and get a better damage output.

Daesu · May 15, 2010, 12:48 PM // 12:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

Daesu butthurt again. You must of gotten shitstormed on PvX at some point for being so autistic. =/

There are no Necro elites that heroes can use well. So you might as well run ER for better energy management and health gain. It's a decent build, I see why people recomended it. Defenetely a sort of thing you should be running for c+spacing with a melee.

Would you stop theory crafting and rub that stupid awe-struck look from your eyes whenever you see a green banner with a 'Great' rating for a pvx build? Did you even try that build? If not, did you even read the pvx build discussion tab at least?

The reason why they added the variant was because too many people complain that it sucks, they kept dying, and party wipe so they recommended adding a more sabway-like healing. Why would anyone think such a build deserves a 'Great' rating, with so many negative feedback from their users who have tried it in HM, is beyond me, except maybe some build master is theory crafting and defending the build yet again. How do I know? I actually see a tab called 'rate'. They should have a new rating for this, called 'Great as long as you don't try this in HM, kids'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by From build pvx discussion

I'm not gonna revote to avoid 1RV, but really think this shouldn't be in great. Maybe good, not great.

Your healing comes from monk henchies, or Chiyo or whatever. They have very little/bad energy management, meaning under heavy pressure = dead.
Blood bond HEALS your minions, = less kersplodeyness = less dead enemies = more dead you.
Heroes can't use summon spirits, which means your Rit will cast SoS and then have to wait 30s to cast again. At the rate which things die in PvE, you could say you're wasting your elite slot there since your spirits will be left behind.
Let's look at Sab:

Epic healer which is strong under pressure, and has strong party heals. Healer henchies have few/no party heals.
same MM
curses necro which does more damage than the SoS and incorporates all but the orders from your orders ele.
Room for pure-damage henchies, pew pew, and let's face it, henchies are better at damage than healing (Mhenlo lolol vs say, Herta or Gehraz even)
For a hero build to be great, it has to be practically invincible. Take discord, with which I VQ'd Gandara, the Moon Fortress without completing "a thorn in Varesh's side" beforehand, H/H, without pulling the mobs apart. I just let them run at me as they spawned (all at once). Go try that with this, and tell me if it deserves great.

tl;dr: sucks compared to discord and sab. And yes, you can compare all hero build to those two. -- Star talk 23:29, March 15, 2010 (UTC)

Not enough conditions and hex removal. Not enough (if any) red barring. Sabway has better condition removal and red barring than this build and condition removal is important for a physical who can be blinded or weakened. If you miss, you can't gain adrenaline. Again, I can't login and rate this build any worse than 'Great!' because my vote would be removed as it has already been decided this is the targeted rating. 71.112.20.205 15:16, March 24, 2010 (UTC)

This build cannot be compared to discord or sabway however I think there are some uses for it. In Normal Mode it works better than sabway as you dont need that much healing and a Physical with all those buffs = more damage than SS. For HM it was pretty weak but like I said this could be very well used if you are doing dungeons in NM, for which it works great. The Time Less One 19:59, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

I have tried this and i noticed that the weaker mobs were dead in an instant, but the mobs that were just slightly more stronger could wipe out an entire party in a matter of seconds in HM. I find Sabs or Spiritway to be way more succesful for a melee character.

And lastly, I did try it in HM myself and it definitely does suck. But it would still be ranked 'Great' as long as someone keeps defending its ratings by removing votes that are < 4/5 like an obsessed goalie.

Myotheraccount · May 15, 2010, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Would you stop theory crafting and rub that stupid awe-struck look from your eyes whenever you see a green banner with a 'Great' rating for a pvx build? Did you even try that build? If not, did you even read the pvx build discussion tab at least?

I never theorycraft. Stop crying. Ofcourse I have tried the build. It's pretty decent. ER works very well with orders.

Quote:

The reason why they added the variant was because too many people complain that it sucks, they kept dying, and party wipe so they recommended adding a more sabway-like healing. Why would anyone think such a build deserves a 'Great' rating, with so many negative feedback from their users who have tried it in HM, is beyond me, except maybe some build master is theory crafting and defending the build yet again. How do I know? I actually see a tab called 'rate'. They should have a new rating for this, called 'Great as long as you don't try this in HM, kids'.

Ehh...lol you are desparately butthurt, Daesu. Quoting any criticism from godawful players that have no idea what they are talking about just so you can argue with me.
Negative feedback from four people three of which are whorus and one is bad doesn't count as many. All of them mainly complain about lack of redbarring - lolbad. Some went as far as saying Discord is better for a melee than that build - roflcakes.
It's natural that there are more noobs that need an extra hero dedicated solely to healing and protting. Read the talk, and see why they added the N/Rt bar. Also, Revenous Gaze is bad because it doesn't do enough life steal to cover the sac of two orders meaning you have to drop either one of them and some other spells like MoP and Barbs too so you can take more heals. It makes absolutely no sense to me why you recomend running it over ER. Awful suggestion.

Quote:

And lastly, I did try it in HM myself and it definitely does suck. But it would still be ranked 'Great' as long as someone keeps defending its ratings by removing votes that are < 4/5 like an obsessed goalie.

Somehow anything you try that doesnt have all three heroes dedicated to healing and protting fails and you say it sucks. I say you suck and not the build. =/
Lastly, I tell you this: Someone disagreeing with you doesn't justify your whining. Stop being butthurt or DIAF.

fireflyry · May 15, 2010, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Seriously guys.

Re-read the OP.