Curse

Racthoh · Feb 18, 2011, 09:18 AM // 09:18

Immediate first thought upon seeing the Dervish update was naturally "oh please say my Orders bot still works" since 90% of the skills were apparently tweaked. Thankfully I was quite surprised to see I could actually make improvements to the original design.

In case the image is down:

Avatar of Dwayna {E}
Dark Fury
Order of Pain
Mystic Healing
Mystic Regeneration
Meditation
Eremite's Zeal
Whirling Charge

Blood Magic: 10
Mysticism: 11 + 1 + 1
Wind Prayers: 9 + 1
Earth magic: 4 + 1

Whirling Charge I'm not too fond of since it doesn't really... do anything. It's just that it recharges in 6 seconds and the hero will use it regardless of the situation to trigger Dwayna's effect. It's also very cheap, 1 energy overall so long as Meditation is up. I'm tempted to give Mirage Cloak a whirl; even at 5 Earth Magic the block is over 50% for 3 seconds, but the 10 second cooldown means it won't trigger Dwayna's effect with as much frequency.

Even when I was just beating on the dummy with no other enchantments coming the hero's way the energy management was quite good. There were the occasional moments where the hero would be sitting under 5 but once Meditation got up or Eremite's Zeal that problem was quickly solved. In an actual dungeon situation I frequently observed the hero in good standing, not to mention deaths were a lot less frequent than previous D/N builds.

Mystic Healing is really good now, no more random healing for each enchantment on the caster, but rather healing if anyone is enchanted which works extremely well with Order of Pain/Dark Fury. Also since it heals the caster twice. This in addition to Dwayna's party healing effect and hex wiping abilities makes the hero more resilient as well. Dwayna can potentially be swapped out for Melandru for a condition heavy zone but the additional 150 health could become an issue.

AI on the flash enchantments is a tad underwhelming at the moment but figured why not see what a Scythe wielding hero is capable of.

In case the image is down:

Avatar of Lyssa {E}
Dust Cloak
Sand Shards
Eremite's Zeal
Zealous Renewal
Twin Moon Sweep
Pious Assault
Heart of Fury

Scythe Mastery: 12 + 1 + 1
Earth Prayers: 8 + 1
Mysticism: 10 + 1

The attributes bother me and they can probably be tweaked better somehow but oh well.

Initially I went in trying to make something work with Dwayna since that party heal is just too attractive but to really take advantage of the teardown skills on a hero you're going to need enchantments up always. I tried a combination of enchantments and teardowns, trying to find a happy medium but it just didn't seem possible. I tried just using Pious Renewal first since the hero will happily cast that if it isn't up as I noticed just running towards the Master of Damage. However once engaged the hero no longer keeps it up all the time so that wasn't an option. This also meant I couldn't combine Pious Renewal with any enchantment I didn't want torn down since the hero wouldn't immediately recast after a teardown.

So I settled on three enchantments that can get torn down for effects and one that just ends on its own then two attack skills that teardown. It's a good balance with Lyssa, I'm just not sure if the attack skills I took are the best options. Mystic Sweep might honestly be stronger than Pious Assault since it would allow me potentially drop Eremite's Zeal or Zealous Renewal for something else. Eremite's Attack is another option as well since the AI likes to use teardowns even with no enchantments up (hoping this is addressed but probably won't be).

I tried using Hundred Blades... err, Vow of Strength as well, which did result in more damage. However that was on a training dummy and I had my Orders hero casting; the avatars all unfortunately change the damage types to non-physical. Vow of Strength also meant taking off every teardown skill because of the AI.

Realistically in hard mode Lyssa probably won't be necessary if a) you're using an Essence of Celerity or b) stuff is dying quickly so the hero has a lot of running or do or c) lots of aoe is making the hero run around a lot. Energy, and more specifically the lack of flash enchantment casting could probably be blamed on testing against a stationary target. With that in consideration adrenaline won't build as quickly so the teardown to enchantment ratio can probably be tweaked better.

Overall the new mechanics just seem a lot better in the hands of the player, as to be expected I suppose. Some more experimentation and observing the hero AI should produce some better results though.

distilledwill · Feb 18, 2011, 10:31 AM // 10:31

On your first build I would be tempted to drop Earth Prayers entirely. You must get enough healing for the hero from Dwayna's + Mystic Healing - if not, there are probably other options (Vow of Piety? Does this trigger Dwayna's when it renews?), it just means you can spread your attributes out nicely and invest that rune slot for some extra health or otherwise.

wilebill · Feb 18, 2011, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Racthoh, thank you so much! I spent most of the evening playing with the patch but had not got this far! This is a really good piece of work, excellent. I will set up Melonni and give it a try.

Kaida the Heartless · Feb 19, 2011, 03:05 AM // 03:05

I'm guessing you plan on using these Heroes in conjunction? If so, consider Radiant Scythe as energy management. I've found heroes simply don't spam Eremite's Zeal like they should. (Edit: On the "Melee" Dervish only, obviously.)

Also, this is more of a personal preference, but I would swap Lyssa's Form with Bathazar's, and Pious Assault with Wearying Strike. The AoE burning compensates for the loss of the pathetically small AoE PA provides in just 2 seconds (in addition to hitting the Dervish's target as well) and hits a larger area. Wearying strike still meets your Tear Down requirement, recharges similarly fast with the Orders/Dark Fury Spammer, and costs 0 energy to compensate for the loss of Lyssa's Form. (Edit: And adds Deep Wound, derp. I suck at first tries.)

Oh, and I'm totally stealing your Orders Bot like I did previously. It's my fav Orders spammer.

Racthoh · Feb 20, 2011, 10:06 AM // 10:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

I'm guessing you plan on using these Heroes in conjunction? If so, consider Radiant Scythe as energy management. I've found heroes simply don't spam Eremite's Zeal like they should. (Edit: On the "Melee" Dervish only, obviously.)

I've been using them in conjunction for testing purposes as I've always tried to look at builds as a whole rather than the individual. The extra adrenaline from Dark Fury with a scythe in hand certainly helps build the teardowns as quickly as the skills recharge. Biggest issue being the hero doesn't quite seem to realize that's why those skills are on there! Eremite's I've found the hero won't use until their energy is low which was actually quite surprising, but that is a bit of a pain on the Orders hero since I'd like them to use it as often as they can.

Quote:

Also, this is more of a personal preference, but I would swap Lyssa's Form with Bathazar's, and Pious Assault with Wearying Strike. The AoE burning compensates for the loss of the pathetically small AoE PA provides in just 2 seconds (in addition to hitting the Dervish's target as well) and hits a larger area. Wearying strike still meets your Tear Down requirement, recharges similarly fast with the Orders/Dark Fury Spammer, and costs 0 energy to compensate for the loss of Lyssa's Form. (Edit: And adds Deep Wound, derp. I suck at first tries.)

Did more testing because I just came to find Lyssa's was too much of a pain. The benefit of the skills recharging really fast is just wasted on them, and trying to compensate with two skills on there almost strictly for energy (not including the energy steal from Lyssa's) felt like a waste. Wearying Strike I had been using as one of my teardowns but I just wanted to slap my hero whenever I saw that gray Weakness ring around Melonni. That's the one problem I have with the skill, the hero will use it with no enchantments up which does absolutely nothing but waste 5 energy from someone having to clean up the Weakness and drain the adrenaline. Were it not for the 10 energy cost on "Find Their Weakness!" I was honestly considering it over Wearying Strike simply because it had that +damage. Not as spammable sure, but dropping one target as quickly as possible puts less of a strain on the backline. I agree with Pious for sure; condition application has more potential synergy than straight damage. Maybe if the AI used the Flash Enchantments as frequently as possible it could work, but for now it'll have to wait.

I hadn't considered trying Avatar of Balthazar for the same reason I was hesitant to test Lyssa; the damage change. I sat there thinking "is the damage gained from having a non-physical attack greater than the damage reduction plus what Order of Pain would give?". It's honestly one of those things I've never looked at.

So back to the drawing board it was:

Again if the image is down:

Wounding Strike {E}
Radiant Scythe
Twin Moon Sweep
Staggering Force
Dust Cloak
Balthazar's Rage
Heart of Holy Flame
Heart of Fury

Scythe Mastery: 12 + 1 + 1
Earth Prayers: 8 + 1
Mysticism: 10 + 1

Radiant Scythe is indeed beastly. While the full damage won't be reached it will power the bar quite nicely. Wounding Strike I had glazed over initially completely neglecting the +19 damage part and thinking it was strictly bleeding then teardown for deep wound, so it didn't seem too impressive at first. Also, 5 energy on a 3 second cooldown. Complimenting those two conditions are cracked armor, blind (short but potentially handy although random with the way AI works), and burning. You could probably tweak the bar to use Avatar of Balthazar instead, swapping out Heart of Holy Flame for Wearying Strike, and having an optional slot free for something else. Armor of Sanctity comes to mind immediately for weakness, but the recharge on it is a bit long at 15 seconds. Aura of Thorns is another option for the cripple inducing on removal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by distilledwill

On your first build I would be tempted to drop Earth Prayers entirely. You must get enough healing for the hero from Dwayna's + Mystic Healing - if not, there are probably other options (Vow of Piety? Does this trigger Dwayna's when it renews?), it just means you can spread your attributes out nicely and invest that rune slot for some extra health or otherwise.

The main character I play nowadays is my Paragon so he has "Save Yourselves!" being thrown out almost all the time so Vow of Piety was a rather weak option for me. It would essentially just be +3 regeneration. With the build not using Arcane Zeal any longer I swapped out Faithful Intervention, Watchful Intervention, and Vow of Piety since their primary function was the fuel the elite. They just didn't feel necessary any longer. Eremite's Zeal and Meditation were put in to make up for the change in both elite and functionality of Mysticism. Dwayna's Touch became Mystic Regeneration; the primary use of that skill was for the hero to heal itself, and it was free with Arcane Zeal. With Arcane Zeal out it's no longer free, so the hero could potentially become locked below 5 energy using Dwayna's Touch as they see fit instead of utilizing the rest of the bar. Mystic Regeneration is practically free, assists with the self heal role, and triggers Avatar of Dwayna.

Vow of Piety became Whirling Charge for the setup I have which wouldn't take advantage of the +24 armor. Given a choice between those two and Mystic Regeneration, if I didn't have "Save Yourselves!", I would drop Mystic Regeneration like you said. The extra armor would certainly act as a better replacement to regeneration and the attribute spread would be cleaner. The hero does occasionally have energy issues so I'm hesitant to add anything to the bar that isn't a Dervish enchantment. Maybe there is a 5 energy enchantment from the necromancer secondary with potential.

Kaida the Heartless · Feb 20, 2011, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Your most recent build is what I've found seems to work the best regarding Hero AI. In fact, it's nearly identical. I'll have to look at Wounding Strike again as well, since I also didn't see the +19.

I've also been looking at Reaper's Sweep, which adds a 3 second knockdown to all targets hits if you use it as a tear down. With Dark Fury, the attack can be mega spammed.

It's really frustrating trying to come up with creative builds when the AI is so limited!

Racthoh · Feb 20, 2011, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

I've also been looking at Reaper's Sweep, which adds a 3 second knockdown to all targets hits if you use it as a tear down. With Dark Fury, the attack can be mega spammed.

Reaper's Sweep makes me want to use Rending Aura, problem is the enchantment will more than likely be torn down and the heroes just won't use it on their own currently.

Gabs88 · Feb 21, 2011, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Ether renewal orders is just way better and less stressing as a hero. ^^ But nice to see that "the only viable dervish hero build" is still viable.

Kaida the Heartless · Feb 22, 2011, 02:34 AM // 02:34

They really need to patch Rending Aura in. Might actually make Reaper's Sweep a decent skill on Physway, since all the Forms tend to change the damage type.

Edit: Racthoh said it better right below me.

Racthoh · Feb 22, 2011, 05:24 AM // 05:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

Ether renewal orders is just way better and less stressing as a hero. ^^ But nice to see that "the only viable dervish hero build" is still viable.

The pros of the E/N variant from what I can tell are a slightly stronger Order of Pain and the ability to completely offset the health sacrifice instantly making it more healer AI friendly. However, it does not heal others, nor can it clean its own hexes. Those points can hardly be considered insignificant.

Daesu · Feb 22, 2011, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Interesting Dwayna and Melandru builds.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...52&postcount=1

Xenomortis · Feb 22, 2011, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Real men run a Nec hero for Orders. Although I know why D/N variants are useful.

I would try to avoid Dust Cloak and the Avatars due to the damage conversions. That said, the other Derv elites look very underwhelming for heroes. Wounding Strike might be ok.
Regrettably Dust Cloak and Staggering Force are the only FEs with a 6 second recharge (and Whirling, but that ends annoyingly early) and they both convert to earth damage.
How are heroes at cycling through enchantments? Is there a noticeable difference replacing Dust Cloak with a 10 second recharging one?

Kaida the Heartless · Feb 22, 2011, 05:54 PM // 17:54

I've been doing quite the bit of testing lately and they seem sporadic. Sometimes they'll get a Wearying Strike off without an enchantment on when 3 are sitting there fully charged. Other times they spam all FEnch's indiscriminately.

Staggering Force and Dust Cloak work great assuming your Hero is packing enough tear downs. If they are, they can keep up with the dual 6 second recharges for the most part and completely avoid the earth damage conversion.

LifeInfusion · Feb 22, 2011, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Real men run a Nec hero for Orders. Although I know why D/N variants are useful.

I would try to avoid Dust Cloak and the Avatars due to the damage conversions. That said, the other Derv elites look very underwhelming for heroes. Wounding Strike might be ok.
Regrettably Dust Cloak and Staggering Force are the only FEs with a 6 second recharge (and Whirling, but that ends annoyingly early) and they both convert to earth damage.
How are heroes at cycling through enchantments? Is there a noticeable difference replacing Dust Cloak with a 10 second recharging one?

Rending aura is 6s recharge :P

The Avatar of Dwayna orders I run has no other order than Dark Fury @6 blood. Seeing how damage conversion is all the rage, it's better to have something surefire. It's not like you can fit 12 blood without dropping earth and wind to 0.

Chthon · Feb 22, 2011, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Real men run a Nec hero for Orders. Although I know why D/N variants are useful.

This is the first time the derv hero has really competed with a real live necro, IMO. The necro offers orders+SoH+cleaning. Now the derv offers orders+party healing. Depending on what your party needs, that could be a better fit. Seven heroes will also open up party composition in ways that make the D/N more attractive.

---

I'd really like to get rid of mystic regen and shuffle those points into blood. 10 feels really weak.

---

Quote:

I would try to avoid Dust Cloak and the Avatars due to the damage conversions. That said, the other Derv elites look very underwhelming for heroes. Wounding Strike might be ok.
Regrettably Dust Cloak and Staggering Force are the only FEs with a 6 second recharge (and Whirling, but that ends annoyingly early) and they both convert to earth damage.
How are heroes at cycling through enchantments? Is there a noticeable difference replacing Dust Cloak with a 10 second recharging one?

Rending Aura is 6 sec without the type conversion.

Xenomortis · Feb 22, 2011, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Rending aura is 6s recharge :P

Oh yes, of course it is. I think I just dismissed it out of hand because at the back of my mind I'd read Racthoh complaining about the hero's use of it, but that wouldn't be too relevant with Wounding Strike.

Racthoh · Feb 23, 2011, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Rending Aura works if you don't mind doing the micro all yourself because heroes just don't cast it on its own. Made me sad because I thought a W/D with Earthshaker, Rending Aura, and Test of Faith would've made a nice combo. But hey, they won't use either of those skills so there went that idea!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Real men run a Nec hero for Orders. Although I know why D/N variants are useful.

I used to run a N/Rt for Splinter Weapon, but human monks always complained about healing the damage.

Quote:

I would try to avoid Dust Cloak and the Avatars due to the damage conversions. That said, the other Derv elites look very underwhelming for heroes. Wounding Strike might be ok.
Regrettably Dust Cloak and Staggering Force are the only FEs with a 6 second recharge (and Whirling, but that ends annoyingly early) and they both convert to earth damage.
How are heroes at cycling through enchantments? Is there a noticeable difference replacing Dust Cloak with a 10 second recharging one?

I thought Dust Cloak would be an issue, but it's basically as Kaida put it. Also I figure the loss of damage during that time is an alright trade off for the damage reduction that results from the AoE blind, the additional damage from the AoE cracked armor, and a greater assurance that something is up to be stripped for Twin Moon Sweep or Wounding Strike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I'd really like to get rid of mystic regen and shuffle those points into blood. 10 feels really weak.

11 and 12 Blood both give the same +13 to damage compared to 10's +12. Basically it's +1 point of damage that gives a little something extra for the hero to use. Still, Mystic Regeneration and Whirling Charge I wish could be something... more. The problem is without Arcane Zeal non-dervish enchantments and spells in general could potentially create energy issues. I'm contemplating Signet of Mystic Speed (works with Order of Pain/Dark Fury) when 7 heroes becomes available, working in Lyric of Zeal on a Paragon, and hoping that'll give some leeway for something else. Although the 20 second cooldown is a nuisance just to get an energy return and potential instant cast... gah, must be something useful in those trees to use.

Kaida the Heartless · Feb 23, 2011, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

...Signet of Mystic Speed (works with Order of Pain/Dark Fury)...

GRAWR. Beat me to it. Dangit Racthoh!

What skills we're you trying to open up in regards to the energy issues?

Racthoh · Feb 23, 2011, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

What skills we're you trying to open up in regards to the energy issues?

I'm not really sure, it's just that the bar feels restrictive at the moment and skills like Mystic Regeneration or especially Whirling Charge reflect that.

Chthon · Feb 23, 2011, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

11 and 12 Blood both give the same +13 to damage compared to 10's +12.

Eh, I suppose low +dmg is just an unavoidable problem with all non-necro-primary orders builds.