Curse

Soryuju · Nov 05, 2011, 03:26 AM // 03:26

So recently, I've been playing around with lots of hero builds, trying out all sorts of different styles in hopes of finding one that I'm comfortable with. My most recent setup is a BiP-based build that draws some inspiration from Plutoman's Dillway, but takes advantage of minions and spirits. It seems to be running quite well, but as I tackle progressively harder content with it, I'd like to get outside opinions and suggestions on ways to fine-tune it. Here's the team build:

At this point, I'm open to any suggestions people have to help improve it, since I'm learning how to run endgame areas like DoA, and I'd rather not be going in with a suboptimal team build. So, a few questions (TL: DR version below):

1) Do the Mesmer bars look alright? I was trying not to have too much overlap between them, since I know heroes with interrupts tend to interfere with each other. Also, could I rune them (particularly the mixed one) more effectively?

2) My BiP is my own creation, and it sacrifices the support options of a N/Rt or P/N for higher survivability and a spike heal. I think the Mesmers and SoS cover most of what a N/Rt or P/N could offer, anyways. Are there any ways to improve on the D/N formula, though? Right now, it almost never dies, even in elite areas (despite having no armor insignias or HP runes), but I'm not sure if there are other support options that might be worth swapping some of its defense for. Or should I drop the D/N entirely for a different BiP build?

3) For areas with few corpses, what can I run in place of the MM? I tried an E/Mo Prot, which I figured would be a pretty close fit, but I noticed my heroes taking a lot more damage and dying more often than they did with the MM in the team. When testing on the HM Wind Rider mobs outside Rata Sum, I wiped with the E/Mo, but hardly took any damage with the MM (even though it didn't have any minions up when I first engaged the Wind Riders). I do have 3 Merc slots, so I could go with an ST Rit if necessary, but it would be nice if the build could run without Mercs.

4) Any other general critiques?

TL: DR - Can I improve my Mesmer builds, can the D/N BiP be improved, what can I use instead of the MM in areas with few corpses?

Thanks in advance!

zweetreet · Nov 05, 2011, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Hello,

looks like a good setup but i would change it up a little bit,

the 2x illusion mes : get rid of accumalted pain, put in clumsiness.

the d/n: would swap for a n/rt:
Bip-mend body and soul-spirit light-prot was kaolei-life-sig of lost souls-2x optional.

would swap the ua smite for ST rt.

this way you have more team prot + more steady heals from the nec..

now for the MM in areas without corpses.. i would put in a ROJ(since most corpless areas have undead..) or something else pure damage like an invoke ele..

EDIT: remove Life from SOS, put in flesh of my flesh

Nephele · Nov 05, 2011, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Lose the UA for an ER prot elementalist. And give your MM enfeebling blood, shadow of fear, and death pact signet (10 in curses, any extra pts in restoration). BiP could similarly be changed to N/Rt BiP healer with flesh of my flesh for a no CD res. This would give you more prots, and more heals with minimal effect on your damage output.

I favor ER prot eles over ST rits mostly because they require less micro to be effective, and you can give them low CD condition and hex removal. I've yet to find an ST build that offers the flexibility of an ER prot, the only advantage they have is their party wide prot to start every pull with.

Soryuju · Nov 05, 2011, 04:41 PM // 16:41

I'm going to be starting tests with the proposed changes soon, but a couple questions/comments before I get started:

1) So far, opinion seems to weigh against the UA Smiter. I'm mostly just curious, why is this? While it doesn't have the highest healing or damage capabilities of any hero, its ability to do both is still pretty respectable, and it packs a lot into its bar. A powerful, fast res that returns full energy, condition and hex removal, double party heals, and a mini-prot with Reversal of Damage. Also, since the N/Rt BiP seems to be a popular suggestion, wouldn't UA be a desirable res, since it will help mitigate the team-wide energy drought that would occur when the BiP dies? Even if I'm just waiting a few seconds for the BiP to come back up, that's a few seconds where the entire team is depleting its energy pool.

2) If I'm going to try the N/Rt BiP, how should I rune it? Should I try to go for low HP, to make life easier on the healers, or high HP, to try to keep aggro off of it? Also, Nephele, you mentioned running FoMF on it - considering the HP sacrifice the BiP regularly has to make, wouldn't FoMF be weakened, and also put the BiP itself in danger? Would it be better to run FoMF on the SoS and give Life to the BiP?

To be honest, the reason I went with a D/N BiP build is due to bad experiences with N/Rt and P/N versions. I found that they died with a disturbing frequency, even when I was using more than just a MM Prot with the SoS and UA for heals. When it died, it tended to cause a lot of grief for the team because their energy battery dried up, and sometimes a wipe would follow. The D/N solves the issue by having hitting 745 HP (without runes), so even after using BiP, it doesn't draw aggro (since it still has more HP that some of my other heroes). Mystic Regeneration lets it heal rapidly, and combined with its other defensive skills, it becomes nearly impossible to kill (and Imbue Health helps make my other party members hard to kill, too, providing a degree of healing that neither the SoS nor the UA is capable of).

3) Since I brought up FoMF, is it really safe to run it on one of the healers? I thought the common opinion was that you shouldn't put res skills on healers, since when a party member dies (i.e. when the team is likely under heavy pressure) it would commit them to reviving the dead ally rather than keeping the rest of the team standing.

Thanks!

zweetreet · Nov 05, 2011, 05:52 PM // 17:52

UA smiter has just small heals, and little damage,
so if you swap out the d/n bip for a n/rt bip-resto, you covered the healing part(and probably doubled it) and you now have 1 free hero, to run what you want..
i'd say RT rit for party wide prot, but as mentioned above the e/mo is nice aswell for overload prot, eventhough it ain't partywide.

as for FOMF, if you put it on a healer you can disable it and micro it.. so he won't use it in the middle of a hard battle and get you killed, but only when you think is the right time.. i think UA is just a waste of an elite if you don't use it with arcane mimi+HB

Jeydra · Nov 06, 2011, 08:45 AM // 08:45

General teambuild -

1. Don't run Panic on a player Mesmer. AI does hexing very well; you can (and probably should) run something more offensive. I'd suggest Assassin's Promise, but whatever floats your boat.
2. You have a lot of defense. Two Illusion Mesmers supported with Stand Your ground, a UA Smiter, a SoS semihealer and a healing Dervish is way overkill. Drop at least one Illusion Mesmer. I'd suggest dropping both of them, but it's up to you.
3. I don't know how effective the D/N BiP is at healing, but if it works at least as well as the UA smiter, then as long as you have enough hard resses in the rest of the team you can lose the UA Monk for more damage. I'm a big fan of SoGM Rits, but if you don't want to use those you can use another ESurge Mesmer or an Invoke Ele.

Individual skills -

1. Flesh of my Flesh is a bad hard res. You've got Death Pact and Signet of Return (and UA), those should sufice. The SoS Rit bar is extremely cramped. If you don't feel like Life is useful, consider Splinter Weapon or Lamentation or Painful Bond.
2. Have you considered more healing on the Dervish (e.g. Signet of Pious Light, Dwayna's Touch)?

Soryuju · Nov 06, 2011, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

General teambuild -

1. Don't run Panic on a player Mesmer. AI does hexing very well; you can (and probably should) run something more offensive. I'd suggest Assassin's Promise, but whatever floats your boat.
2. You have a lot of defense. Two Illusion Mesmers supported with Stand Your ground, a UA Smiter, a SoS semihealer and a healing Dervish is way overkill. Drop at least one Illusion Mesmer. I'd suggest dropping both of them, but it's up to you.
3. I don't know how effective the D/N BiP is at healing, but if it works at least as well as the UA smiter, then as long as you have enough hard resses in the rest of the team you can lose the UA Monk for more damage. I'm a big fan of SoGM Rits, but if you don't want to use those you can use another ESurge Mesmer or an Invoke Ele.

Individual skills -

1. Flesh of my Flesh is a bad hard res. You've got Death Pact and Signet of Return (and UA), those should sufice. The SoS Rit bar is extremely cramped. If you don't feel like Life is useful, consider Splinter Weapon or Lamentation or Painful Bond.
2. Have you considered more healing on the Dervish (e.g. Signet of Pious Light, Dwayna's Touch)?

I know it's more traditional to let heroes run Panic, but I've kind of gotten used to the role over time, and I never fully settled into the AP style. My bar is basically about heavy shutdown and nuking. Technobabble + Panic provides heavy control, and then WD goes to work on mobs snared by Shared Burden. Cry of Pain follows WD for the interrupt as well as a damage burst, and YMLAD! works wonders when it comes to sustaining WD on a target. Unnatural Signet usually hits just in time for WD to hit the 50 damage mark, dropping a 100 damage spike on everything adjacent to the target, in addition to the previous damage from WD and CoP. It doesn't match the single-target damage of an AP Mesmer, I know, but I don't ever really feel like I have a lack of offense.

About dropping the Illusion Mesmers, my first thought would be to convert the Ineptitude Mesmer into one more focused on Domination Magic, with E-Surge as the elite. It would be nice to still splash some Illusion spells in, though, particularly Wandering Eye and Accumulated Pain. I'm actually really fond of having two copies of the latter, since it seems like everything I target receives a Deep Wound within seconds, and that really boosts killing speed dramatically.

About the Derv bar, I didn't go for Signet of Pious Light because the teardown works against its survivability, but Dwayna's Touch might be worth investigating. If I drop a point from Earth Prayers, I can put 5 points into Wind Prayers and replace Veil of Thorns or Conviction with it. The D/N frequently has Death Nova cast on it in addition to its other enchants, so it shouldn't be too hard to get a respectable heal out of it. Thanks for the idea!

I'm definitely investigating alternatives to the UA Smiter at this point, though I admit that I'm a bit concerned about the loss of party heals replacing it would cause. I'd have a single copy Protective Was Kaolai and maybe Life, and that seems a bit lacking to me. While more offense sounds lovely, I don't want the build to waver under pressure. I'm not perfect when it comes to pulling, and I'd rather not wipe when I overaggro. So at this point, the Smiter has become something of a dilemma. =/

Plutoman · Nov 07, 2011, 03:43 AM // 03:43

Converting a mesmer to a more domination based mesmer is a good idea. There's not a lot of overlap with illusion spells that works well, besides the elites themselves (which are pretty darn good). I can't comment on the accumulated pain, that would be the first thing I would have taken out, but if it works - it works. I would definitely recommend a more dom based mesmer, though. Sometimes, however, it depends on the area - if you need the blind, swap ineptitude back in.

For the derv bar, I don't know dervs very well. So I'll pass on it. Unique BiP bar, though, very unique (which can be good or bad, and like I said, I've no idea which it'd be XD).

For the last comment, I might recommend a combo invoke + rit heals, or invoke + prots. Something like invoke/chain/l-orb/attune/glyph of elemental power/3 prots, or 3 heals (say, SoA, prot spirit, aegis, or spirit light, MBaS, PwK). If you need, add in a rez for any skill or something. I've only tested this a little bit but it's gone well from what I've seen. Considering the lack of major prots in the team, the first option would probably be better. If you do try it, tell me how it goes!

For the smiter, you can always go with RoJ without losing the party heals. I generally agree with Jeydra's comments, though I do understand not wanting to switch up your bar too much.

il Priscilla il · Nov 07, 2011, 03:51 AM // 03:51

5 mes midline punishes enough with "direct damage" that I do fine with a BiP/resto and UA heal. If I'm in an area with pressure I sub a mes for either SoS or SoGM.
Also, this is for my W/A running Assassin's Promise.

Soryuju · Nov 07, 2011, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Thanks for the continued suggestions! I've been working on testing the different changes suggested here, trying to take substitutions one at a time to gauge the impact of each. Since my time is limited, I haven't gotten to everything, but oddly, a lot of the changes have created issues with energy (not something you would expect from a team with a BiP).

1) Dwayna's Touch on the Derv bar didn't end up working out. I had swapped Veil of Thorns out for it, and the subsequent increase in energy consumption had the Derv hanging around 2-4 energy for a great deal of the time. Energy regained through Meditation was quickly burned off, and the result was that the Derv couldn't keep itself or other party members alive effectively. I could still try Signet of Pious Light, which would avoid the energy issue, but like I said before, I don't really trust the hero with a teardown, considering the types of enchantments it's running and their importance to its survival.

2) I swapped the UA out for the E/Rt Air Magic Resto suggested (choosing Resto over Prots because I didn't want all of the team's healing to depend on the SoS and Imbue Health). I don't know what I did wrong, but the BiP wasn't able to keep it fueled at all. I ran it with Invoke, Chain Lightning, Lightning Orb, Air Attunement, Death Pact Signet, Mend Body and Soul, Spirit Light, and Protective Was Kaolai, with 12+4 Air Magic, 9+1 Energy Storage, and 10 Restoration Magic. The hero wasted no time in burning through its entire energy supply, and it spammed skills so frequently that even with the extra regen from BiP, it rarely had more than 5-7 energy available. This made it unable to heal consistently, leading to a wipe in Ravenheart Gloom NM, an area which I usually have no trouble with. So what did I do wrong with the setup?

3) This one is probably more my fault than anything, but my initial experiment with a second Dom Mesmer also kind of failed. Basically, I swapped Ineptitude for E-Surge on the Mixed Mesmer, and took out Signet of Clumsiness for Mistrust. I then replaced Mistrust on the first Dom Mesmer with Shatter Enchantment, and exchanged Mirror of Disenchantment on the Illusion Mesmer for Clumsiness. Long story short, the changes overtaxed the BiP, leading to a drop in defense with no appreciable difference in killing speed. When I go out to test again, I'm going to keep Mistrust and MoD where they initially were, abandoning Clumsiness and the second copy of Shatter Enchantment. I'll probably still swap Signet of Clumsiness for a different skill, but I'm not sure what. Unnatural Signet? Spiritual Pain? Power Spike? Something else? I'm completely open to suggestions on this end.

I do intend to continue experimenting with previous suggestions as well, like the ER Prot, but I haven't really had time to test them thoroughly, so I'll report on the results when I can.

Plutoman · Nov 07, 2011, 11:08 PM // 23:08

I'll just add a quick point to #2, don't have much time for an in-depth reply - well, anyways, I had actually meant the swapping of the MM while keeping the UA smiter, and running prots with the Air ele. I've not had any issues with energy, so I'm not sure what's wrong. First guess is that the Air ele had the attunement lost from the necros or dervishes. Second guess is that you have a 40/40 set (or something similar), while I actually ran a staff on the ele due to lack of time and money for testing. Third guess is I just haven't played with it enough to really know how well it works. I first tested it in Vloxen's HM, and didn't have issues from the ele's. But my team composition was entirely different, too. <_<

Well, experimentation and testing typically leads to better builds. I'm out of ideas at the moment, so I'll just pop on out and keep an eye on how it goes.

il Priscilla il · Nov 07, 2011, 11:31 PM // 23:31

I use 1 panic mes 1 inept and 3 esurge (or sub an esurge for another inept) 2me/rt, 3 me/p

Basically if you aim for as much armor ignoring damage as you can muster, with 2 ench removal / hex removal (unless area calls for more) running unnatural signet, your BiP will generate enough energy for your mesmers to obliterate targets in 2-3 spells, preferably 1-2 with proper runes, eliminating the energy management issues.

If you find yourself lacking defence, run SoS rt or SoGM rt or both for huge unwavering defence.

Also, my Bip is n/rt resto.

Plutoman · Nov 08, 2011, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Some testing with the air ele leads me to believe that it's PwK causing issues. It tends to confuse the amounts of energy the ele actually has (he could have 25/50, then cast PwK, drop to 15, and then the lack of staff/offhand takes him to 0 or below). I've run it with prots fairly successfully.

The Drunkard · Nov 09, 2011, 02:52 AM // 02:52

I'm not understanding the point of two copies of shatter hex. While shatter has a nice AoE, the only thing that will be close to mobs is your minions. You also have Panic+Shared+other interrupts, which makes it a lot less likely that casters will be able to get off a lot of hexes for your team to utilize the hexes, minus something like suffering.

Why not take the dom out of the Inep. bar and switch to channeling magic (a-rage+splinter), which would complement the minion wall, reduce the energy strains, and allow the other heroes which have less energy intensive builds to handle hexes?

Another thing, how is running two ineptitude-esque builds working for you? Do you notice heroes clashing with each other on hexing targets? SB doesn't need a lot of investment in illusion to be useful, would running dom on the bar instead put out more damage?

Otherwise, builds look ok. I'll try it with a few vanqs.