Curse

Daesu · Jan 13, 2012, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Consider the reason you require Stone Sheath the fact Prot Spirit cannot be everywhere. The problems I was having with PS and not Shelter was the buff to Shatterstone and Mind Burn were both raping my party when I didn't space out enough. I didn't have that problem with ST, and as Xeno points out, you get at least two uses out of ST before it may or may not, depending on if you attempt to micro, fall into recharge.

I will test it again later today to find out more what happened. Whenever I wipe using the ST rit, both Shelter and Displacement were recharging but the other 2 spirits weren't. I didn't micro the ST rit at all, perhaps the damage was so great that 2 uses of Shelter wasn't enough.

Quote:

What you can't do with PS is maintain it on everyone; you have to spread around and waste time flagging everything. Also, Thought Destroyers strip enchants fast; very dangerous to depend on ER in those high-end areas where prots matter.

I noticed that you didn't use orders which I did. But then again orders cant be depended upon at all times for cover enchant too.

Quote:

What are you using on your Stone Sheath build? It sounds like a wasted slot to me; minor damage and mitigation capabilities... So you can have Churning Earth, Obsidian Flame and Stone Sheath...

Those 3 skills and eruption, earth attunement, GoLE, SYG, and res. It a skill bar that I quickly hacked up but it makes the dervs more durable.

Daesu · Jan 13, 2012, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Ok I tested it. I like the build but I really hate your ST rit. Shelter should never ever go into 45s recharge like that, defeats the purpose of ST in the first place. I consider that the weak link in the build.

HigherMinion · Jan 13, 2012, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I have close to no experience with this kind of teambuild, but I'll still suggest taking out the IV Resto and the MoI Water for two RoJ Smiters. They can bring one copy of SoH each, and two copies of Smite Hex as well. That frees up Shatter Hex on the Dom Mes for Shatter Enchant (you have no enchant removal right now). With two copies of Divine Healing on the Smiters, you probably don't need "Never Surrender!" as well and can use another Domination Magic skill instead. You lose a hard res, but since Smiters are fully capable of carrying "Fall Back!", you can just move the "Fall Back!" onto one Smiter and give the Mesmer a hard res.

I have a few bad memories from using two Death Pacts, but whatever works for you

Adding more RoJ over the near-pure healer I have here seems superfluous when I already have massive AoE damage. I tried using SoH on an ER smite bar but it wasn't strong enough because of baddie AI. I have Disenchantment on the ST, but I could also slot Drain Enchantment on the mes, depending on the area.

Lanier · Jan 13, 2012, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Heroes use ER better than ST, particularly in this style of build. Use a minion master to get the extra bodies (in place of the panic mesmer), and replace the ST with an ER.

http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:E/Mo_ER_Prot_Hero

Hero AI has no problem at all with this bar, and with a 20% enchant mod, the downtime of ER will be small and not noticeable (remember, ele heroes have like 70-80 energy, and they wont be blowing through all of that in ER's short downtime).

On the minion master, either bring smite skills, or if you must, you can take the para skills that are currently on your mes. Trust me, having the extra bodies from a MM will help your defenses far more than your panic bar will, and you can always place hex removal on the mm or put it on an ER bar.

Outerworld · Jan 13, 2012, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Heroes use ER better than ST, particularly in this style of build. Use a minion master to get the extra bodies (in place of the panic mesmer), and replace the ST with an ER.

http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:E/Mo_ER_Prot_Hero

Hero AI has no problem at all with this bar, and with a 20% enchant mod, the downtime of ER will be small and not noticeable (remember, ele heroes have like 70-80 energy, and they wont be blowing through all of that in ER's short downtime).

On the minion master, either bring smite skills, or if you must, you can take the para skills that are currently on your mes. Trust me, having the extra bodies from a MM will help your defenses far more than your panic bar will, and you can always place hex removal on the mm or put it on an ER bar.

Afraid I'm going to have to disagree; hero AI is bloody terrible with ER and minions certainly don't help it. I agree that there are too many spirits on the ST bar but there's nothing else worthwhile in Communing to replace them sadly.

Lanier · Jan 13, 2012, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outerworld

Afraid I'm going to have to disagree; hero AI is bloody terrible with ER and minions certainly don't help it. I agree that there are too many spirits on the ST bar but there's nothing else worthwhile in Communing to replace them sadly.

Then I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree. I have used both, and hero AI uses ER prot builds so much better in my experience. There are three hero builds that I always use in my team, no matter what: an SoS hero, a MM hero (unless im in a rare area without corpses, obviously), and my ER prot hero. This set-up makes dying nearly impossible, even if I overaggro big-time, and I know that the ER hero is carrying his weight because, like I said before, I have tried using an ST in my hero set-up instead.

Kaida the Heartless · Jan 13, 2012, 11:53 PM // 23:53

You could always move "Fall Back!" and "Stand Your Ground!" to the Communing Rit since options are lacking. That would open up some options on another char as far as secondaries goes.

Here's something I like to run when I need a [defensive] Communing Rit. Not optimal but a ton of fun. It allows you to run a traditional Minion Master with Bone Fiends on the Necro (Jagged Bones as well), which is mandatory for the build to succeed. Provides AoE Prot Spirit, AoE damage, AoE Healing, AoE Condition Removal, and you feel like a boss runnin' around with all the Minions. Make sure to only run one copy of Death Nova between the two or they'll overlap casts.

Soul Twisting
Shelter
Animate Bone Minions
Signet of Creation
Spirit's Gift
Explosive Growth
Boon of Creation
Union/Displacement/Death Nova

Chthon · Jan 14, 2012, 03:28 AM // 03:28

1. Tried the ER-smite someone suggested. I'm afraid it's just made of fail. The hero AI shoots to zero energy and stays there.

2. Tried again my standard ER hero from before the update. Worked fine. My opinion of ER vs ST is the same as it was before: They are more or less interchangeable, with some differences that make the choice more of a zone-by-zone decision. (You can also pair them up for damn near indestructibility, but at the cost of quite a bit of party space.)

3. Tried a Stone Sheath hero. It worked good. The extra armor helps greatly to keep the dervs alive after they shadow step into big aggro. The hero AI does a great job of tossing it up front on the dervs too.

4. I ran Stone Sheath, Stoning, Obs Flame, Command stuff, and e-management. Stoning was funny as all hell, but energy was very tight.

5. I want to try MoI, but I wonder if it's going to support the dervs as much. I also wonder about the hero AI's realistic ability to score the half recharges (without which, the skill is really not that attractive).

6. Tried a minion master in place of the other else. It is exactly what I'd expect: A great damage/decoy steamroller when it's up and running, and... welll... not when it's not.

Soryuju · Jan 14, 2012, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

You could always move "Fall Back!" and "Stand Your Ground!" to the Communing Rit since options are lacking. That would open up some options on another char as far as secondaries goes.

Here's something I like to run when I need a [defensive] Communing Rit. Not optimal but a ton of fun. It allows you to run a traditional Minion Master with Bone Fiends on the Necro (Jagged Bones as well), which is mandatory for the build to succeed. Provides AoE Prot Spirit, AoE damage, AoE Healing, AoE Condition Removal, and you feel like a boss runnin' around with all the Minions. Make sure to only run one copy of Death Nova between the two or they'll overlap casts.

Soul Twisting
Shelter
Animate Bone Minions
Signet of Creation
Spirit's Gift
Explosive Growth
Boon of Creation
Union/Displacement/Death Nova

Just curious, how do you spec/rune this? I've kind of drifted from using ST Rits, but I agree that this looks sort of fun and might be worth experimenting with.

Also, about the Smite monks, I usually find that an SoS Healer and a UA Smiter is plenty of healing, so an SoS along with two RoJ Smiters would probably work fine. Granted, I'm usually running with minions, so if you aren't planning to take an MM or MB along, it might not work so well.

HigherMinion · Jan 14, 2012, 03:49 AM // 03:49

I just ran through Thommis/Rand. To function well against the big mobs here; flag your heroes back, ball, precast Sand Shards and VoS on both dervs, give them both Splinter and then cast MoP/TB. The mob will explode.

Daesu · Jan 14, 2012, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. Tried the ER-smite someone suggested. I'm afraid it's just made of fail. The hero AI shoots to zero energy and stays there.

2. Tried again my standard ER hero from before the update. Worked fine. My opinion of ER vs ST is the same as it was before: They are more or less interchangeable, with some differences that make the choice more of a zone-by-zone decision. (You can also pair them up for damn near indestructibility, but at the cost of quite a bit of party space.)

I dont know why your ER hero fails while mine has been working well for me all this time. What level of ES after runes? Is your hero using a 20% enchant weapon?

I am surprised that your hero shoots to zero energy and stays there. It should be only about 5s downtime for ER at level 16 ES and the lower the energy, the more likely the AI would cast ER.

ER-protect, with SoH, is a build that has been around a long time before the update and I dont see how it would stop working all of a sudden. In the worst case, just cast SoH on one of the dervs instead of both. It is still better than without a fast recharge hex remover, no SoH at all, and a 45s recharge shelter.

HigherMinion · Jan 14, 2012, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I dont know why your ER hero fails while mine has been working well for me all this time. What level of ES after runes? Is your hero using a 20% enchant weapon?

I am surprised that your hero shoots to zero energy and stays there. It should be only about 5s downtime for ER at level 16 ES and the lower the energy, the more likely the AI would cast ER.

ER-protect, with SoH, is a build that has been around a long time before the update and I dont see how it would stop working all of a sudden. In the worst case, just cast SoH on one of the dervs instead of both. It is still better than without a fast recharge hex remover, no SoH at all, and a 45s recharge shelter.

It's not as bad if you maintain SoH on the ER and one physical; but that removes the purpose mostly. The build is fragile on a hero since they don't prot themselves and thus prone to ench strips.

Chthon · Jan 14, 2012, 11:13 PM // 23:13

1. Tested last night with MoI. MoI is really, really nice. It usually causes the monster AI to just give up and hold still. I tested MoI/Rust/Blurred Vision/Glowing Ice/GoLE/Attune/SYG/FB. Does decent damage, gets the fast recharge reasonably often, offers some utility. I think I like it even better than Stone Sheath.

2. More experience with Death's Charge has convinced me that it justifies its spot despite the awful recharge. With some micro, you can insta-kill any mob that naturally bunches to adjacent range in their pre-aggro state. I think I can live with not having this available for every mob, since it often does such a nice job of dealing with the handful of really problematic mobs.

3. I cannot emphasize enough how bad of a benchmark Rand/Thom is. I apologize to anyone who's been relying on it because I mentioned it earlier. Slavers got quite a bit harder with this update, while most of the game got easier. While that's maybe good for helping to sort "good build vs bad build," it's just impossible to make a valid comparison between "how my old builds performed in Rand/Thom vs how my new test build performs in Rand/Thom." This matters since the initial assessment of whether a build might work out well is usually based on "this feels more effective than what I used to use," and that assessment can be waaay off if you try to use Rand/Thom as a benchmark.

To give an example, I ran the exact same build through Ragnar's and charr were dying so quickly and easily that several times I had to check to make sure that I wasn't in NM... in Ascalon City! Without question, this was the easiest time I've ever had with Ragnars. (Except for damn double Flesheater, who is even more ridiculous now. Hint: Place Shelter/ER ele out of range and solo (both of) him with spear+Barbs+EVAS.)

--------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I dont know why your ER hero fails while mine has been working well for me all this time. What level of ES after runes? Is your hero using a 20% enchant weapon?

Do you seriously think I'd screw up an ER build in those respects?

Quote:

I am surprised that your hero shoots to zero energy and stays there. It should be only about 5s downtime for ER at level 16 ES and the lower the energy, the more likely the AI would cast ER.

I was surprised too. On paper, there's no reason why the build has to behave like this; it's just the hero doing everything wrong.

Quote:

ER-protect, with SoH, is a build that has been around a long time before the update and I dont see how it would stop working all of a sudden.

I'm aware that these builds have been around a long time. I never ran them before because Orders+SoH justified a party slot in any party where SoH was already justified. So, I can't say whether they worked acceptably before.

Assuming that they did work OK before, the most likely explanation is that having Zealot's Fire causes the AI to behave differently. It might work if I take that back off, but then I'm back to questioning if SoH is worth giving up (1) duration and numbers on Prots (2) the multiplier on Infuse, and (3) the opportunity to run Healing Breeze and/or Vig Spirit.

Kaida the Heartless · Jan 15, 2012, 12:12 AM // 00:12

You need to get your ER to run his maintainable enchantment on himself (even if it is SoH). I've found that if you don't, the Ele doesn't gain enough energy when casting. Four energy per cast far overpowers the loss of .33 energy per sec for 5-6 seconds. It's completely okay if the Ele is only at +1 Energy Pips; his net energy should still be positive and allow him to cast forever.

Also, what is the Ele's bar? I'm concerned he may not have enough to spam while ER is up.

Daesu · Jan 15, 2012, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

It's not as bad if you maintain SoH on the ER and one physical; but that removes the purpose mostly. The build is fragile on a hero since they don't prot themselves and thus prone to ench strips.

Enchant stripping against an ER hero has been addressed before and it is usually not as big of a deal.

@Chthon: Maybe you are right, it is Zealot's Fire, I dont use that skill on my ER. Unfortunately his ST rit with 2 offensive spirits causes the AI to mess up sometimes and makes shelter goes through recharge during combat. An ER with SoH should dish more damage than a pure ST rit anyway.

Yes I like the MoI and Death's Charge too.

AtomicMew · Jan 15, 2012, 06:11 AM // 06:11

For my ST, I have Razah running:

Soul Twisting
Shelter
Boon of Creation
Flesh of my Flesh
Dissonance
Shadowsong
Disenchantment
Anguish

For the most part, I have shelter disabled and let Razah run as full offensive spirits. I'll micro shelter if needed which seems to be enough most of the time, but I also have the option of disabling the offensive spirits and having Razah run as full on shelter spammer. This seems to work out okay. I think in general, ST shelter spam is really inelegant, since over half the bar is just wasted on garbage filler or even just empty.

Xenomortis · Jan 15, 2012, 12:14 PM // 12:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

3. I cannot emphasize enough how bad of a benchmark Rand/Thom is. I apologize to anyone who's been relying on it because I mentioned it earlier. Slavers got quite a bit harder with this update, while most of the game got easier. While that's maybe good for helping to sort "good build vs bad build," it's just impossible to make a valid comparison between "how my old builds performed in Rand/Thom vs how my new test build performs in Rand/Thom." This matters since the initial assessment of whether a build might work out well is usually based on "this feels more effective than what I used to use," and that assessment can be waaay off if you try to use Rand/Thom as a benchmark.

I'm confused; what changed, in specifically Slaver's, as a result of this update? The only Elementalist foes you encounter in Thommis and Rand are Stone Summit Warders and all they had was a reduction in Churning Earth's cast time.
Or do you refer to the health boost that, for the most part, appears to slightly overcompensate for the armour reduction? Or perhaps an Invoke hero was a necessary component of your SE hero builds...

Whilst the health boost means a direct comparison is going to be invalid, you can usually get a fairly good idea on how the two builds relate.
Of course, to be certain, you need to run your old build in there again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Unfortunately his ST rit with 2 offensive spirits causes the AI to mess up sometimes and makes shelter goes through recharge during combat. An ER with SoH should dish more damage than a pure ST rit anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtomicMew

I think in general, ST shelter spam is really inelegant, since over half the bar is just wasted on garbage filler or even just empty.

ST+Shelter is, 90% of the time, totally unnecessary if you're not playing badly and 100% uptime on shelter is, as far as I can tell, unnecessary 100% of the time.
Shelter is a crutch which you take out of laziness and the template it goes in is invariably going to be an ugly one to behold.
That said, the power of it, with ST, is such that the bar pushes itself ahead of most of its competitors, regardless of what else is shoved on it.

AtomicMew · Jan 15, 2012, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

ST+Shelter is, 90% of the time, totally unnecessary if you're not playing badly and 100% uptime on shelter is, as far as I can tell, unnecessary 100% of the time.
Shelter is a crutch which you take out of laziness and the template it goes in is invariably going to be an ugly one to behold.
That said, the power of it, with ST, is such that the bar pushes itself ahead of most of its competitors, regardless of what else is shoved on it.

Preaching to the choir, Xeno.

I'm curious what other people take on their ST bar. Since shelter spam isn't needed 100% of the time even in zones where ST is useful, I've found the best option is to fill up the rest of the bar with offensive spirits and let Razah run with them in general use.

Chthon · Jan 16, 2012, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

I'm confused; what changed, in specifically Slaver's, as a result of this update? The only Elementalist foes you encounter in Thommis and Rand are Stone Summit Warders and all they had was a reduction in Churning Earth's cast time.

My thinking on that issue.

---

On another topic: People trying to get damage out of ST might try Edge of Extinction?

Wenspire · Jan 16, 2012, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Well of the Profane would probably help out in Slavers. The high EN cost may be a problem though.