Curse

Age · Dec 25, 2007, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Quote:

Orignally Posted by batno_mercy
Comparing cost of equipment:

55hp monk needs
-any armor (may be 1337 armor, but most people just get shing jea) almost nothing but can be up to 5k
-the grim cesta - 5k
-6 superior monk runes (including switching caps, 5 if you don't switch caps) - roughly 5k, depending on current prices
-any +20% enchanting wand/melee weapon -5k

Wrong here as a 55 only need 5 superior runes where are you going to use the 6th one and at todays prices it relatively cheap compared to when I first started and they in 10K+.

Coloneh · Dec 25, 2007, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asha Rai

600 tanking is all about soa, not spirit bond.

you just added another skill that a 55 dosnt need.
55: balth aura + e-bond + prot spirit + mystic regen or HB = 4
600: balth aura + e-bond + Blessed Aura+ prot spirit + SB + SoA = 6

also, stop this nonsense about tanking an unlimited number of foes. an SB can be spiked down easily if 20 hits get through between the recharge of SoA and the time spirit bond ends.

John Panda · Dec 26, 2007, 05:06 AM // 05:06

600 > 55

end of story.

John Panda · Dec 26, 2007, 05:09 AM // 05:09

go 55 Temple Of the damned <_<

thats an amazing farm theirs tons of places a 600 monk can farm that 55 cant

i wonder how many places a 55 can farm than a 600 O:

Zamochit · Dec 26, 2007, 05:30 AM // 05:30

It depends on your personal preference, and the type of farming you most commonly do.

55/105/135 ~ Most commonly used on solo farm runs in areas where there are no lifestealing enemys or enchant removers ~

600 monk ~ Is considerably more efficient but is reliant on either controling a hero smiter or farming with a freind.

On any "dual" farm I would almost always roll 600hp. It is just so much more efficient at what it does ~ the "Smite" doesnt rely on balling the enemys for SS, there is no "downtime" of damage dealing skills and no knockdown (unlike with SoJ)~ which greatly reduce your Damage over time ~ The fact that the "Smite" deals holy damage only makes it even more effective especially in areas with undead. Also unlike the old 55/SS ~ at no point does the damage dealer need to come anywhere near the agro

When soloing I personally find 55 or 135 preferable depending on whether I am using SV or SoJ ~ I rarely run SS out of personal preference ~

In my opinion 55/105/135 ~ requires (slightly) more skill ~ Use for solo runs.
600/Smite ~ Most effective farm build currently in the game since the introduction of Hardmode.

You can't see me · Dec 26, 2007, 06:08 AM // 06:08

Because [skill]Holy Wrath[/skill] + [skill]Retribution[/skill] > [skill]Shield of Judgment [/skill]

Asha Rai · Dec 26, 2007, 10:51 AM // 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

you just added another skill that a 55 dosnt need.
55: balth aura + e-bond + prot spirit + mystic regen or HB = 4
600: balth aura + e-bond + Blessed Aura+ prot spirit + SB + SoA = 6

a 55 with HB needs mending or even bleeding will nerf your ability to tank several mobs. And specing enough into healing prayers to get enough regen from hb is expensive. Mystic regen is better, and you need only 8 earth prayers, but thats your second job gone - no ss, sv or iw, so you need someone else to do the damage. And relying only on regen (even maxed) means you can tank at most 7 - 12 mobs depending on their atk speed.

Quote:

also, stop this nonsense about tanking an unlimited number of foes. an SB can be spiked down easily if 20 hits get through between the recharge of SoA and the time spirit bond ends.

No it can't. SoA has a 10 second recharge, but can be maintained for over 11 seconds. Without major lag, there is no downtime (if you do lag a second or more, you will have issues). Assuming you take 60 dmg a hit, it will take 12 hits to get SoA absorbing all damage, which means you take 360 damage or about half your health. Spirit bond will cover that.

Its clear you have no idea what your talking about coleneh, so before you keep arguing, take 10 minutes and try it out for yourself.

Another important advantage of 600 tanks is they can work in interrupt heavy or knockdown heavy areas using [skill]Mantra of resolve[/skill] or [skill]Fleeting Stability[/skill].

Coloneh · Dec 26, 2007, 04:20 PM // 16:20

a 55 can use either of those skills. and if you dont understand how time works, i really dont feel like this discussion is worth my time.

Zamochit · Dec 27, 2007, 08:03 AM // 08:03

Also with mystic regeneration a "55hp" no longer needs to spec into healing prayers for mending and healing breeze ~ this effectively leaves one slot free which means you can chain SoA and shielding hands ~ when doing this I usually run 105 or 135 ~ This enables you to tank a HUGE amount of enemys solo

Age · Dec 27, 2007, 11:05 PM // 23:05

What is this 135 build I hear about in here?

Zamochit · Dec 28, 2007, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Basicly the same as a 105 build but you use an offhand or staff with +30hp ~ it allows a little more leeway with regards to degen.

Faer · Dec 29, 2007, 06:45 AM // 06:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

an SB can be spiked down easily if 20 hits get through between the recharge of SoA and the time spirit bond ends.

If that happens...

batno_mercy · Dec 29, 2007, 11:06 AM // 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

Wrong here as a 55 only need 5 superior runes where are you going to use the 6th one and at todays prices it relatively cheap compared to when I first started and they in 10K+.

5 runes = 1 on every peace of armor
6 or 7 runes = 1 on every peace of armor + optional smite or divine favor caps

Let me explain: 4 of each rune on the normal chest, arms, pants and boots

1 cap with + 1 smiting (for those not-so-efficient SoJ build) and any superior rune (i usually take divine favor on it, doesnt matter at all since you will have a smiting rune already, as they are cheapest)

1 cap with +1 protection prayers (for pure tank builds as in [Shield Of Absorption] and [Shielding Hands] )

1 cap with +1 divine favor that you put on every time you cast spell breaker and every time you cast blessed aura. Gives 2% more on enchantments.

***REALLY OPTIONAL*** 1 cap with +1 healing prayers for you to reach +3hp regen from mending and not having to boost ur attributes all the way.

As in different situations, you will use these caps, then the costs of these runes add up. You can manage without these headgears, but you can do better with them. So basically if you have a normal 55hp monk, you have 5 runes and if you have a fully equipped 55hp monk, you have 8 runes on 4 armors and 4 headgears.

WARNING, LOTS OF TEXT U CAN SKIP TO LAST PARAGRAPH IF U DONT WANT TO ARGUE. If you do want to argue that 55hp > 600hp, then read the big block

To solve this tanking issue completely, I did a calculation : do you die if you have 600 health and you manage to cast SoA on full health and not cast spirit bond afterwards, even with lots of enemies attacking you (with PS on)?

The thing is a bit more complicated but it is something in the lines of:

For 600 hitpoints: 600 - E(600/10 -5*1) - E(600/10 -5*(1+1)) = 270hp, 12 hits
For 700 hitpoints: 700 - E(700/10 -5*1) - E(700/10 -5*(1+1)) = 200hp, 14 hits
For 900 hitpoints: 900 - E(900/10 -5*1) - E(900/10 -5*(1+1)) = 135hp, 18 hits

900 hitpoints is the grand max that a 600hp monk can achieve, given that he has eaten a + health consumable and has +10% morale boost. That's why 600hp can't farm areas with symbiosis, at higher hitpoints, the monk just dies even with SoA active.
Considering a 600hp situation,you have to be hit 22 times if you manage to cast SoA so u die. That means, that aggroing stuff that can dish out 22 packs of 60+ damage in 2 seconds means that you are a dead monk. But 22 packs of this? Do you think that a 55hp can tank 21 packs? The answer is NO from personal experience. If you are regularly dealt 10 packs (PS) + 8 packs (20 hitpoints regenned per second * 2/ the damage you take) you will DIE.

So guess 22 packs > 18 packs on one hand, meaning u survive 4 more hits over 2 seconds.

If you have SoA on at 600 health, no matter how many your enemies will be, they CANT damage you to 0 hp, actually, if you cast spirit bond just after the cast of SoA, then you will lose the pathetic sum of 15 hitpoints during the whole SoA duration.

What every 600hp does is (considering that SoA recarges 1 sec after it ends):

As SoA ends, w8 1/2 second, cast SB
When SoA recharges after 1/2 second, cast SoA
w8 for SB to recharge (1/2 second left) then put it on. 2 secs of leeway, 9 secs of heaven. Most enemies die during the second SoA.

After all calculations, with the 600hp you die in two occasions, when SB doesnt trigger ( dmg < 60 ) or when you are dealt more than 11 dmg packs per second. Thats 3 groups of mobs in HM.

Ive never seen a 55hp tank 2 groups of mobs in HM without other protection than SB + 10hp regeneration.

An interesting point which noone came up with is:

What about a 13hp monk? In terms of tanking, it beats the 600hp monk, but it isnt permanent

My opinion is still that 600hp > 55hp in most purposes.
Give me a solo 55hp run that makes more cash than a regular 2.5k per person * 6 = 15k every 30 mins (raw cash, other good drops too, goes to 20k) in CoF
and I will admit that 55hp is better than 600hp in terms of income.

These are all numbers that prove why 600 > 55. If you read it all, thanks. I'm going to fetch a spoon to get my eyes off the floor after staring too much at the screen.

Age · Dec 30, 2007, 02:47 AM // 02:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by batno_mercy

5 runes = 1 on every peace of armor
6 or 7 runes = 1 on every peace of armor + optional smite or divine favor caps

Let me explain: 4 of each rune on the normal chest, arms, pants and boots

1 cap with + 1 smiting (for those not-so-efficient SoJ build) and any superior rune (i usually take divine favor on it, doesnt matter at all since you will have a smiting rune already, as they are cheapest)

1 cap with +1 protection prayers (for pure tank builds as in [Shield Of Absorption] and [Shielding Hands] )

1 cap with +1 divine favor that you put on every time you cast spell breaker and every time you cast blessed aura. Gives 2% more on enchantments.

***REALLY OPTIONAL*** 1 cap with +1 healing prayers for you to reach +3hp regen from mending and not having to boost ur attributes all the way.

As in different situations, you will use these caps, then the costs of these runes add up. You can manage without these headgears, but you can do better with them. So basically if you have a normal 55hp monk, you have 5 runes and if you have a fully equipped 55hp monk, you have 8 runes on 4 armors and 4 headgears.

WARNING, LOTS OF TEXT U CAN SKIP TO LAST PARAGRAPH IF U DONT WANT TO ARGUE. If you do want to argue that 55hp > 600hp, then read the big block

To solve this tanking issue completely, I did a calculation : do you die if you have 600 health and you manage to cast SoA on full health and not cast spirit bond afterwards, even with lots of enemies attacking you (with PS on)?

The thing is a bit more complicated but it is something in the lines of:

For 600 hitpoints: 600 - E(600/10 -5*1) - E(600/10 -5*(1+1)) = 270hp, 12 hits
For 700 hitpoints: 700 - E(700/10 -5*1) - E(700/10 -5*(1+1)) = 200hp, 14 hits
For 900 hitpoints: 900 - E(900/10 -5*1) - E(900/10 -5*(1+1)) = 135hp, 18 hits

900 hitpoints is the grand max that a 600hp monk can achieve, given that he has eaten a + health consumable and has +10% morale boost. That's why 600hp can't farm areas with symbiosis, at higher hitpoints, the monk just dies even with SoA active.
Considering a 600hp situation,you have to be hit 22 times if you manage to cast SoA so u die. That means, that aggroing stuff that can dish out 22 packs of 60+ damage in 2 seconds means that you are a dead monk. But 22 packs of this? Do you think that a 55hp can tank 21 packs? The answer is NO from personal experience. If you are regularly dealt 10 packs (PS) + 8 packs (20 hitpoints regenned per second * 2/ the damage you take) you will DIE.

So guess 22 packs > 18 packs on one hand, meaning u survive 4 more hits over 2 seconds.

If you have SoA on at 600 health, no matter how many your enemies will be, they CANT damage you to 0 hp, actually, if you cast spirit bond just after the cast of SoA, then you will lose the pathetic sum of 15 hitpoints during the whole SoA duration.

What every 600hp does is (considering that SoA recarges 1 sec after it ends):

As SoA ends, w8 1/2 second, cast SB
When SoA recharges after 1/2 second, cast SoA
w8 for SB to recharge (1/2 second left) then put it on. 2 secs of leeway, 9 secs of heaven. Most enemies die during the second SoA.

After all calculations, with the 600hp you die in two occasions, when SB doesnt trigger ( dmg < 60 ) or when you are dealt more than 11 dmg packs per second. Thats 3 groups of mobs in HM.

Ive never seen a 55hp tank 2 groups of mobs in HM without other protection than SB + 10hp regeneration.

An interesting point which noone came up with is:

What about a 13hp monk? In terms of tanking, it beats the 600hp monk, but it isnt permanent

My opinion is still that 600hp > 55hp in most purposes.
Give me a solo 55hp run that makes more cash than a regular 2.5k per person * 6 = 15k every 30 mins (raw cash, other good drops too, goes to 20k) in CoF
and I will admit that 55hp is better than 600hp in terms of income.

These are all numbers that prove why 600 > 55. If you read it all, thanks. I'm going to fetch a spoon to get my eyes off the floor after staring too much at the screen.

What I said is right if you want to debate it more then I suggest you bring Sno,Tsunami Rain and the person who wrote up the guide on the main site.You only need 5 Superior runes I think is is Cerb who wrote it.There is only 1 variation of the 600 but more of the 55 and not just Monk as there N/Mo,/E/Mo and Me/Mo.

Here is the Guide 55-Monk Guide by Cerb

batno_mercy · Dec 30, 2007, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

What I said is right if you want to debate it more then I suggest you bring Sno,Tsunami Rain and the person who wrote up the guide on the main site.You only need 5 Superior runes I think is is Cerb who wrote it.There is only 1 variation of the 600 but more of the 55 and not just Monk as there N/Mo,/E/Mo and Me/Mo.

Here is the Guide 55-Monk Guide by Cerb

I totally agree with you on the no-variations part. Still, 600 is more effective on a monk (remember the part of the forum we are in). 55hp can be very broad, but still unable to cope with the mindwhopping record of 600hp farmable areas.

Here is what what Cerb said (I bolded and underlined)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerb

I highly recommand you place your four different runes on your chest, arm, leg and foot designs, and the doubled one on your scalp (it’ll help if you have to change the scalp).

Right now, if I took Shield of Judgement and had smiting prayers as my highest attribute, I’d use a +1 Smiting Prayers scalp with a superior divine favor rune (cheapest on market), and I’d upgrade my chest, arm, leg and foot designs with healing prayers, protection prayers, smiting prayers and divine favor superior runes. Get what I mean?

It is down to personal favor. Even with 5 superior runes, 55hp is still more expensive than 600hp.

When i use smiting SoJ builds i always get the +1 smiting one. Much easier. Or for example. You need 14 DF so your SoA lasts full recharge duration with Blessed Aura. that means 11 DF raw. Why do it 11 when at the beginning you can get 10 DF and then switch to a Divine Favor headpiece? Thanks for reading it whole btw, I'll try to PM Tsunami Rain and ask his opinion after New Year.

Age · Dec 30, 2007, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by batno_mercy

I totally agree with you on the no-variations part. Still, 600 is more effective on a monk (remember the part of the forum we are in). 55hp can be very broad, but still unable to cope with the mindwhopping record of 600hp farmable areas.

Here is what what Cerb said (I bolded and underlined)

It is down to personal favor. Even with 5 superior runes, 55hp is still more expensive than 600hp.

When i use smiting SoJ builds i always get the +1 smiting one. Much easier. Or for example. You need 14 DF so your SoA lasts full recharge duration with Blessed Aura. that means 11 DF raw. Why do it 11 when at the beginning you can get 10 DF and then switch to a Divine Favor headpiece? Thanks for reading it whole btw, I'll try to PM Tsunami Rain and ask his opinion after New Year.

I do recall in that guide that Cerb said about just changing your attributes around and at 15 instead of 16 is still a huge change.I would only have to head pieces if I did this one for smiting and devine favour for SB.You only need 1 in heal and protect in the 55 build.I have several Mo/X 55 builds and I have farmed in hard mode.The 600 may have the 55 beat in the EoTN dungeons but you do need the smiter partner to come along with you.The 600 can not farm in NM where most 55s can.

The 55 by todays prices is relatively cheap from 1.5 years ago when it was really popular as for Monks only those being /W.It is what gave Mo/W a bad name.The only place a 55 needs a partner is in the UW other than that they can solo.

cerb · Dec 31, 2007, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Hola guys

Talkin' bout me are we? :P

I started playing GW again this week, bought NF and EOTN... and of course I went to UW

I didn't get to try hard mode yet, but if anyone cares, I took some pics of a nice build I've been playing with for the standard Monk / Necro 2-men run. I still prefer 55/SS over 600 hp/bonder combo, I'll let these screenshots speak for themselves:

I used to prone Monk/Warrior over anything else back when I wrote my guides because Spirit Bond took 1/4 to cast and didn't expire after 10 hits. However now that it isn't a reliable solution anymore and SoA casts in 1 second, interrupts become a problem again, hence Mantra of Resolve.

Let's get back on topic though: 55 vs 600. I *think* monsters do not flee from damage caused by HW/Retribu in HM. Don't bash me if I'm wrong, I have been away from the game for over a year and just came back a couple days ago. But if that is the case, I would prefer 600 for HM, and 55 for normal mode, for UW anyway. A good SS and a good 55 will always be faster than a 600/Bonder team and clear quests much faster as well. (I sooo don't wanna try Ice King/Escort of Souls/Unwanted Guests with a bonder, they would take forever)

manitoba1073 · Dec 31, 2007, 05:27 AM // 05:27

lol you guys arguing over which is better is almost to funny.

Ill solve it all for you so Faer can close this sillyness.

They are the same. One is better in some areas than the other and vise versa.

But for those that think a 55 cant put out that much damage just have no clue about using one.

batno_mercy · Dec 31, 2007, 11:32 AM // 11:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by cerb

Hola guys

Talkin' bout me are we? :P

I started playing GW again this week, bought NF and EOTN... and of course I went to UW

I didn't get to try hard mode yet, but if anyone cares, I took some pics of a nice build I've been playing with for the standard Monk / Necro 2-men run. I still prefer 55/SS over 600 hp/bonder combo, I'll let these screenshots speak for themselves:

I used to prone Monk/Warrior over anything else back when I wrote my guides because Spirit Bond took 1/4 to cast and didn't expire after 10 hits. However now that it isn't a reliable solution anymore and SoA casts in 1 second, interrupts become a problem again, hence Mantra of Resolve.

Let's get back on topic though: 55 vs 600. I *think* monsters do not flee from damage caused by HW/Retribu in HM. Don't bash me if I'm wrong, I have been away from the game for over a year and just came back a couple days ago. But if that is the case, I would prefer 600 for HM, and 55 for normal mode, for UW anyway. A good SS and a good 55 will always be faster than a 600/Bonder team and clear quests much faster as well. (I sooo don't wanna try Ice King/Escort of Souls/Unwanted Guests with a bonder, they would take forever)

This time i totally agree. The point we were arguing about with Age was if you needed 5 or more superior runes for 55hp, hence making it more expensive than 600hp. It is true, when I made my 55hp, the runes were about 3k each. Now they are about 1k each. It is not something that a player that has farmed a bit before can't afford. It may scare of fresh volunteers though.

To Cerb : Monsters in HM dont take Retibution/wrath for AoE damage, so they don't flee. But once they hit less than 50% they switch so no more than 3 can be on the same target. This was one of the things that greately influenced my decision to tank with OF ele and not monk, just aggro everything like you did in those pictures and laugh (the new skill glyph of swiftness makes OF constant).

It is true that NM is better for 55hp. And ofc, from a farming point of view, the HM drops are better than the NM ones (more golds,but same ecto drop chance for example). But the serious downside of UW 600hp is that the caster mobs dont do almost ANY damage(makes them a pain to kill with Retribution/Wrath, especially coldfires).

There are good points in 55hp , like not having to take 3 skills (SB + PS + SoA). But only two like Cerb did, but imagine that mobs in UW had Life Transfer + Life Syphon + some conditions. The bane of 55hp (and even sometimes 105hp) is extreme degen, 600hp has enough health to cope with it.

All is down to personal preference and what you would like to farm first as in CoF or 55hp NM UW. But once you get experienced enough with one, i suppose that you would definetely try the other and learn it (3 sets of armor lol... Why am I laughing? My monk has a bag entirely filled with armor sets lol).

As a matter of fact, beginners would most likely go 55hp because they would not have unlocked HM.

Well, I'm tired of arguing lol. 55hp wins in the UW, but for most places I go 600hp with a smiter and/or a famine partner like in Arborstone HM or other similar areas (DoA for example)

cerb · Dec 31, 2007, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by batno_mercy

It is true, when I made my 55hp, the runes were about 3k each. Now they are about 1k each.

When I started (in prophecies) runes were 20k each :S I think even higher before that, haha