Curse

Antithesis · Apr 26, 2008, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Ok i couldn't resist posting again. I'll try to keep all points short and sweet despite the apparent wall of text

If Zho did her BHA job properly you wouldn't need 3x Savage Shot. Most threats are down within BHA's recharge, so we have a lag on the next target before Dazed is applied. On-demand, fast-charging Dazed via Stunning Strike is better and makes your own bar significantly stronger, it can be banged out every 5 seconds. Given you should be calling targets, everyone will be attacking a Dazed target, potentially interrupting with each attack, meaning Heroes don't need interrupt skills. It also acts as skill compression, it's a straight one skill for three swap.

Volley at 9 Marks in HM is weak. Without Barbs / MoP on the target, Volley at 9 does very little damage in HM. Volley combines well with Splinter Weapon, without it i wouldn't bother. With Stunning Strike on the W/P, Heroes / Pets / Minions interrupt on auto-attack, so we don't need Savage Shot nor 4 att lines. Increasing points in Death/Curses/Soul/Beast means stronger spells / Pets, speeding things up.

Mark of Pain has a long recharge and causes AI scatter in HM which slows things down. It's a good skill on a Promise Curser but not on a Hero.

CoH increases Pet damage by 25% and the speed boost improves their ability to change targets. The IAS also increases interrupts from Dazed, CoH has been included AS the Necro interrupt.

You said yourself 'my Pets die frequently', CoP enhances pet survivability in HM. It's inclusion has nothing to do with my Pets being level 13 at the time. Given you don't need CoP, this is the slot i'm suggesting you could take Disrupting Lunge / Bestial Pounce / Bestial Mauling. That effectively gives you 2 interrupt slots per Necro - one passive, one active.

There is only ONE -75HP sup rune in the entire build, Death for 10 Minions on the MM. Thanks for the runes 'tip', try reading next time. The fact that the Warrior is no longer gathering agro, you run with fewer and weaker minions, and the tendency of Pets to hang around the backline is the cause of agro spread, not the single sup rune in the build. I did forget to wear the Norn title (I was farming Raptors for Birthday Cakes), it adds the same +HP to all party members thus making no diff to agro.

I've seen Pets stand idly by their masters instead of attacking a called target, again questioning their value in the build unless your Hero is set to Aggressive, which is bad. The 15% DP on the SS was from experimenting with Aggressive.

Anthem of Flame / Anthem of Weakness were suggested to trigger the conditional requirement of Spear of Fury and Stunning Strike. Given the SS is casting Weakness+Cracked Armor, neither AoF / AoW are needed, but you sometimes need to wait for a condition to be applied before hitting Stunning / SoF. You could always take Barbed Spear to get the ball rolling.

Of course the first build will be slower without the appropriate skills on the W/P. I can only assume you ran your RotN bar not the one i provided. According to you Splinter Weapon, Weapon of Fury, Stunning Strike, Spear of Fury, Cruel Spear are all bad and Rage of the Ntouka is good. You refute the value of these skills because you stubbornly refuse to recognise the weakness of RoTN and are unwilling to change it. You're attempting to run RotN on the same bar as Save Yourselves, a skill you don't have nor seem to understand! RotN slows the bar down, hence the 'quicksand' comment - it's difficult to use Flail, GFTE, Anthem of Envy and Merciless Spear more than once in the 15 sec recharge. Your bar has terrible energy management and IS slow as a wet wig due to RotN, no wonder you can't slot in Spear of Fury.

Rage of the Ntouka is a weak elite and your bar does very little damage in HM (10-ish vs Physicals), it really is a mixed bag of lollies. Spear of Fury charges Stunning Strike or if preferred, Cruel Spear. Both are incredibly powerful elites, to suggest otherwise demonstrates a lack of understanding of the Paragon. The adrenal engine of SoF+EH+FGJ makes the adrenal skills spammable - the bar is very active in comparison, there's always something ready to go.

Weapon of Fury powers EBSoH and increases spammability of adrenal skills. EBSoH increases damage from everyone in it including Minions, Pets, auto-attacks and spells. To make the most of WoF on the W/P, take only two Physicals in the team so it's not spread around too much. This is what you're doing, hence the suggestion. Again, you seem to lack an understanding of the skill, dismissing it as BAD. Sab's included WoF as a variant in Sabway, see here or go to Page 25 of the thread and keep reading.

You don't need Blood Ritual so there's a spare slot on the third Hero. Mark of Fury is an option to power the player bar if Weapon of Fury isn't taken. Strip Enchantment has a longer recharge than Rip Enchantment, take it instead.

I had less trouble maintaining a full pack of 10 Minions in my build. You move quickly from mob to mob in VF, so while BoTM is desirable on a Mission, it's not in easy Vanq zones thereby reducing minion lag and speeding up the run.

The N/Rt restorer can take Icy Veins and Splinter Weapon, outdamaging your third hero's bar with only two skills while providing significantly better HM party buffs and support. Better party healing and no-DP battle rezzing is preferable in HM. Less party wipes (strategic wiping...lulz) means faster zone clearing and less running from Shrines. Less DP means more damage inflicted, also resulting in a faster run.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All posted screenies are valid within their context, given you've questioned their validity and relevance let's do a direct comparison -

I had another crack on the Master of Damage with the W/P Stunning Strike & Cruel Spear versions, + N/R Curser + N/R MM + N/Rt Resto/Channel with two lvl13 Pets. I still average 200+DPS, the result was recorded on the second 180 sec pass to account for a full set of Minions, the damage is the average per sec for the full 180 secs. As you pointed out, this doesn't factor in the damage from Spiteful Spirit, Splinter Weapon, and Putrid Bile, all of which are at higher atts in my build, so add a ton of DPS to the build in the wild. Nor does it factor in the greatly beefed-up defense and improved interrupts. I'm r5 Ebon Vanguard, r4 Kurzick, max them and the DPS bangs up again. Note also that it's a full 30DPS less than the D-Slasher i posted...you're only gimping your damage by using a Warrior as a Paragon.

I took the liberty of adding [[Anthem of Envy] for the damage buff back into your build. After an hour of tweaking atts and customised equipment I did manage to squeeze 160DPS on average on the second pass. Where are you getting this 200DPS average from?!? Surely your BM 9 lvl 20 Pets aren't adding a full 40DPS compared to BM 10 lvl 13's. If that's the case, make mine 240DPS! I'm gonna call BS buddy, I can back all of this up with screenies and i haven't intentionally gimped your build to do less damage. Even more telling is i can take my team build, stand there auto-attacking with just Flail on the bar with atts of 11 Str & 11 Spear and pull 5DPS less per second than your build.

Given you have doubts about Weapon of Fury, i went back in with the Cruel Spear build, dropped EBSoH for Anthem of Envy, dropped the N/Rt for a BHA Splinter Volley with it's lvl19 Pet. I also slotted [[brutal strike] onto both Necs for more damage. DPS was 190 on average on the second run. Shock horror...the build did less damage when i dropped the Healer for a damage-dealing Physical with a Pet (10 Minions + 3 Pets total).

You've accused me of theorycrafting yet you've only tried a few of the weaker suggestions or gimped them by running your own bar, and dismissed the rest with no understanding of why the skills have been selected. You Sir are a hypocrite (no offense). I understand perfectly why you've chosen the skills on your bars, i've also demonstrated there are much better options.

In summary -

High atts > mid-range atts.
3 att lines > 4 att lines.
1 Stunning Strike + IAS auto-attacks > 3 Savage Shots.
1 Splinter Weapon > 3 x Volley.
Skillbar compression > redundancy.
Human-controlled spammable Dazed > non-spammable AI-controlled Dazed.
Adrenal engine > 15 sec recharge Adrenal spike.
Adrenal skill spam > disabled skills and a slooooow bar.
WoF + EBSoH > gimped Anthem of Envy.
Less deaths > more DP.
Class-specific weapons > Necros with Bows.
+dmg easy to meet conditional Dazed or Deep Wound > no +dmg conditional Deep Wound on a half-dead foe.
10 strong Minion bombs > 9 mid-range Minion bombs.
Strong useful Pets > mid-range Pet meatshields
Fast recharge > Slow recharge.
No AI scatter > AI scatter.
D-Slasher + Sabway at 230+DPS > My build at 200DPS > Your build at 160DPS.

All of these factors combined add up to a faster run, I don't see how you fail to see the logic nor how you can deny the numbers. You're doing about 2/3rds of the damage you could have done by just sticking with Sabway. Sab's has much better defense, is resistant to over-agro and can recover with battle rezzes. You'll bring up the interrupts again in which case recall that spammable Dazed > hard interrupts.

Your bars are all weak in HM, i've improved your year's worth of experimentation within a few hours which either tells me you really didn't try that hard, or you're always right even when you're wrong. At the very least dump the W/P bar, it's utter rubbish. You could take Stunning Strike, drop Zho, work Epidemic into the build as use Volley as an AoE interrupt. See how that works? Think outside the box you've cornered yourself into.

With all of this in mind i'll simply restate there's a million ways to skin a cat. Some skills are definitely stronger than others whilst others are chosen for no other reason than personal preference. Maybe the difference is the teams i build are for HM, your's is weaker and slower than it could be in HM but is effective in NM. Our goals are both the same however Vanq'ing VF with a higher damage, stronger defense build with The Path to Revelations active will get you the Norn title faster than weaker gimmick (there's that word again) builds based on the principle of 'strategic wipes'. Submitting HM Books will get it even faster, so this whole thread is obsolete.

This is not a personal attack draugr, i'm interested in improving the build. My intention is not to make myself look good, you look bad or start a shitfight but to offer logical, well-reasoned and argued alternatives that i really shouldn't need to explain. Instead of restating the same thing over and over and over, i'll just refer you to the DPS numbers and the list above. Opinions are variable, facts are indisputable. I'm not trying to be a pratt, but reasoning with a brick wall is tiresome when the facts are plain as day. Your reasoning and supporting arguments are weak and given the alternatives your skills selections are clear as mud.

I mean no harm, spite, malice nor to be uncivil or condescending. I'm not trolling nor have i been pwned by you in RA. A forum is a place to argue, there's nothing wrong with a little passion in the debate and participating beats the pants off being passive

If i've given you the wrong impression I apologise, but bad builds attract criticism just as good builds attract praise. There's lots of the former and not much of the latter in this thread. You can put it down to my deriding your build and influencing other's opinions. I'm more inclined to believe it's considered a meh build and not worth the effort to post.

Thanks for considering the feedback and for posting the build, despite our disagreement. If nothing else i've found myself a working Stunning Strike / Cruel Spear W/P build.

xxx wraith xxx · Apr 27, 2008, 01:42 PM // 13:42

i agree with all that has been said expect for one thing antithesis...10 high-ranged minions vs 9 mid range? its just 1 lvl difference

draugr · Apr 27, 2008, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Volley at 9 Marks in HM is weak. Without Barbs / MoP on the target, Volley at 9 does very little damage in HM.

True. The point of volley is to have a normal bow attack on the bar to enhance barbs, mop and GFTE. And with fast recast, barbs and GFTE are on many, if not most targets. Heroes do lots of wanding between casts depending on circumstances, which is actually slightly higher dps than just shooting a bow at 9 marks, approx. 18 v 16 (with a pet), BUT does not trigger barbs. Initial testing, found that the dps of a single pet and bow using necro on a barbed target goes from the high teens up into the mid thirties. 15ish extra dps from one toon is significant, multiplying that times three..., and of course the barbs is armor ignoring . In order to get this dps, necro skills are run at 12-13 instead of 14-15, and the energy pool is reduced from a staff/wand/focus, but I do run "I have the power" insigs such that the necros are still running a 45ish energy pool with no visible detriment. Faster deaths = faster SR. The extra hits from volley are admittedly just "scud" damage, and if there were a better replacement, and I've considered [body shot] and [keen arrow], I'd use it. I'm toying with testing replacing [volley] with [distracting shot], on a run today and will post the results if I get around to it. Feeling lazy today actually, which is why this reply will be too long.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

You said yourself 'my Pets die frequently', CoP enhances pet survivability in HM. It's inclusion has nothing to do with my Pets being level 13 at the time. Given you don't need CoP, this is the slot i'm suggesting you could take Disrupting Lunge / Bestial Pounce / Bestial Mauling. That effectively gives you 2 interrupt slots per Necro - one passive, one active.

By "frequently," I mean that there are about 4 times in a 250 mob VF HM run where I have to stop and rez pets, usually one, sometimes two pets dead. This adds maybe a minute total to the run. Moreover, they almost never die to regular dmg, but to spike aoe from multiple tramples, elementals, giant stomps, etc, so at least in VF, but I imagine elsewhere, I'm not sure COP would even reduce the number of deaths.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

There is only ONE -75HP sup rune in the entire build, Death for 10 Minions on the MM. Thanks for the runes 'tip', try reading next time. The fact that the Warrior is no longer gathering agro, you run with fewer and weaker minions, and the tendency of Pets to hang around the backline is the cause of agro spread, not the single sup rune in the build. I did forget to wear the Norn title (I was farming Raptors for Birthday Cakes), it adds the same +HP to all party members thus making no diff to agro.

This brings up a good point. You are willing to reduce a hero's hp by 75 to get one more minion, but have often claimed that the totally passive pet slot on each of my necro's bars was a waste or gimmick, or born out of my desire to use pets (which I can assure you is not the case), whereas those three slots adds 3 lvl 20 540 hp 80 AL "perma minions" to the build that are easily monitored in the party window.

We all want our necros casting 4 or 5 key skills over and over again, the difficulty is coming up with skills for the rest of the bar that don't unduly interfere with those core skills. Pets was one of my solutions (totally passive 4 slots on the bars), volley instead of wanding is another, and though the interrupts use energy, they don't take much time away from casting and are highly beneficial. For harder areas, all this is dropped and back to conventional sabway, but for farming rep and easier area running, the sabway defense can be dropped for more offense IMO.

The norn title doesn't add to allies, which can increase aggro onto minions and pets, but not a huge deal either way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

I've seen Pets stand idly by their masters instead of attacking a called target, again questioning their value in the build unless your Hero is set to Aggressive, which is bad.

Yes they do, with wanding heroes. With martial weapon equipped heroes, the tendency is for the necros to volley first, immediately engaging the pets. With wands equipped, the necros tend to cast first. Because the initial volley only takes 2 seconds from first cast, I find it a worthwhile tradeoff and gets the pets moving. Pets do check aggro every two seconds, so there is downtime, but less than minions, who aren't nearly as disciplined as pets in their aggro routine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

I can only assume you ran your RotN bar not the one i provided. According to you Splinter Weapon, Weapon of Fury, Stunning Strike, Spear of Fury, Cruel Spear are all bad and Rage of the Ntouka is good. You refute the value of these skills because you stubbornly refuse to recognise the weakness of RoTN and are unwilling to change it. You're attempting to run RotN on the same bar as Save Yourselves, a skill you don't have nor seem to understand! RotN slows the bar down, hence the 'quicksand' comment - it's difficult to use Flail, GFTE, Anthem of Envy and Merciless Spear more than once in the 15 sec recharge. Your bar has terrible energy management and IS slow as a wet wig due to RotN, no wonder you can't slot in Spear of Fury.

I don't think I've been clear about how [rage of the ntouka] is used, and I apologize, let's see if I can do better. You use it the second you enter the zone, well before combat, and between combats, as you are moving to the next group. The recharge effect takes 10 seconds to expire, whereas the adrenaline strikes stay around longer. The object of the skill is to enter combat with a fully charged bar AFTER the detriment has expired. Try it, [for great justice] then ROTN will fully charge all the skills on your bar well before combat. So all your adrenal skills are available with no recharge immediately.

You use them, then ROTN, and usually with one attack, you bar is fully loaded again, but this time you are subject to the recharge. Once you get used to it, you will enter combat with a fully charged bar with ROTN ready to be used again and ideally FGJ not far behind. It frontloads your entire bar before engagement, and allows immediate reuse. For long drawn out battles, it's meh, but for rep farming, it's great IMO. It's the best fast adrenaline engine other than D-slash, and I don't want to do melee grinding rep, so ROTN it is. Those who prefer melee in their grinding, vanquishing whatever, are certainly better served by D-Slash.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

You don't need Blood Ritual so there's a spare slot on the third Hero. Mark of Fury is an option to power the player bar if Weapon of Fury isn't taken. Strip Enchantment has a longer recharge than Rip Enchantment, take it instead.

I like seeing the hero cast BR on the monk henches, as henches running low on energy is a weakness of the build due to lack of the sabway healers. The AI uses BR very well IMO, and it is very useful, so sticking with it. Have played with strip, rip, rend, and gaze, and think all are effective, not too much difference. I use strip because it gets two and has the healing bonus, but the build doesn't suffer switching any of these out for the other. See above ROTN point as to why WOF or MOF aren't really needed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

The N/Rt restorer can take Icy Veins and Splinter Weapon, outdamaging your third hero's bar with only two skills while providing significantly better HM party buffs and support. Better party healing and no-DP battle rezzing is preferable in HM. Less party wipes (strategic wiping...lulz) means faster zone clearing and less running from Shrines. Less DP means more damage inflicted, also resulting in a faster run. .

Have tried splinter, and have much experience with it on my main. Will just have to agree to disagree here. I'll keep the third pet, and the Icy as a physical dmg dealer/interrupter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

I took the liberty of adding [[Anthem of Envy] for the damage buff back into your build. After an hour of tweaking atts and customised equipment I did manage to squeeze 160DPS on average on the second pass. Where are you getting this 200DPS average from?!? Surely your BM 9 lvl 20 Pets aren't adding a full 40DPS compared to BM 10 lvl 13's. If that's the case, make mine 240DPS! I'm gonna call BS buddy, I can back all of this up with screenies and i haven't intentionally gimped your build to do less damage. Even more telling is i can take my team build, stand there auto-attacking with just Flail on the bar with atts of 11 Str & 11 Spear and pull 5DPS less per second than your build.

.

It's 195 dps on the third pass (to get a balance of jagged and regular minions) with a few skills disabled (weaken armor is one, did it again a couple days ago so can't remember what else I disabled), and I've dropped anthem of envy, using blazing spear and the bleeding spear attack on the human.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

In summary -

High atts > mid-range atts.
3 att lines > 4 att lines.
1 Stunning Strike + IAS auto-attacks > 3 Savage Shots.
1 Splinter Weapon > 3 x Volley.
Skillbar compression > redundancy.
Human-controlled spammable Dazed > non-spammable AI-controlled Dazed.
Adrenal engine > 15 sec recharge Adrenal spike.
Adrenal skill spam > disabled skills and a slooooow bar.
WoF + EBSoH > gimped Anthem of Envy.
Less deaths > more DP.
Class-specific weapons > Necros with Bows.
+dmg easy to meet conditional Dazed or Deep Wound > no +dmg conditional Deep Wound on a half-dead foe.
10 strong Minion bombs > 9 mid-range Minion bombs.
Strong useful Pets > mid-range Pet meatshields
Fast recharge > Slow recharge.
No AI scatter > AI scatter.
D-Slasher + Sabway at 230+DPS > My build at 200DPS > Your build at 160DPS.

1. agreed
2. agreed
3. disagree
4. disagree
5. agreed
6. agreed
7. disagree
8. agree but not if ROTN is used correctly.
9. agreed
10. agreed
11. disagree for purposes of this build
12. disagree
13. agreed
14. disagree
15. agreed
16. ?
17. on master of dmg, agreed
[/QUOTE]

We've talked enough; let's think of a way to test the builds in VF where we can each observe the other's build in action. Stakes can be a cupcake... If yours wins, I will gladly change over for farming rep, as I'm just interested in speed here. Maybe three runs on each build and we can dump one of the henches to make room for either one of us or an impartial observer/helper,200mobs cleared instead of the normal 250 to cut the overall time down some, to the final bosses and we can time each other. I'm going to be ingame today, but can't actually block the time for a test until next weekend. If you are already r10 norn, then suggest a different outdoor test that would benefit us both. If it's in a different zone, I reserve the right to accommodate my build to the zone any way I see fit, and would need some time to learn a run in the zone if it's not already familiar to me.

Antithesis · Apr 27, 2008, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by xxx wraith xxx

i agree with all that has been said expect for one thing antithesis...10 high-ranged minions vs 9 mid range? its just 1 lvl difference

Two levels.

[death [email protected]] vs [death [email protected]].
[animate bone [email protected]] vs [animate bone [email protected]].
[jagged [email protected]] vs [jagged [email protected]].

More and bigger bombs, 10 Minions vs 9 Minions. The -75HP can easily be countered by Survivor runes and +HP weapon / focus mods.

Quote:

I am running "I have the power" insigs

I'm assuming you mean Radiant Insignia. I take it you don't HM much at all, they are full of fail. Little wonder you're using 'strategic wipes' to defend a weak build.

You can't argue with the findings or the numbers, and both Sab's and mine will add additional damage in the wild with the AoE of DN, SW, PB and optionally, IV, all at higher atts than in your build. I've thoroughly tested your build, the least you can do is the same rather than giving it a cursory glance and poo-poo'ing it because you won't change RotN. "It doesn't feel as fast" is a poor defense because it is definitely faster, the numbers back that up.

Quote:

It's 195 dps on the third pass (to get a balance of jagged and regular minions) with a few skills disabled (weaken armor is one, did it again a couple days ago so can't remember what else I disabled), and I've dropped anthem of envy, using blazing spear and the bleeding spear attack on the human.

That's not the build you posted and Jagged's aren't going to make 35DPS difference. If they did then mine would go up to at least 235DPS on the Master of Damage, i'm pretty sure it won't. If you can get to 195 with the build you posted (you can't), expect to add 40-45DPS by running a stronger W/P bar. At least try Stunning Strike / Cruel Spear and a decent adrenal engine - it'll do more damage, make the run faster & easier and the bar faster & more interesting to run. You can then experiment with CoH vs Savage Shot. Also try removing Dazed completely from the build to test the efficacy of Savage.

Quote:

16. ?

Mark of Pain causes AoE scatter in HM, this may be why you're having problems with a melee Warrior. I like the skill too, but not on a 20 sec recharge. No other skills in the build cause AI scatter. There will often be some kiting but it's easily contained. You could take a crippling skill if it's causing you that much grief that you honestly believe swapping from Melee to Ranged is faster for a Warrior.

Quote:

I reserve the right to accommodate my build to the zone any way I see fit, and would need some time to learn a run in the zone if it's not already familiar to me.

So basically you're saying you won't be running the build you posted. There's no 'Varajar Fells in NM' qualifier in the OP. If the challenge is Varajar Fells with the requirement that i must run a W/P Spearchucker, here's what i'll take -

[enduring harmony][for great justice][flail][spear of fury][cruel spear][save yourselves][ebon battle standard of honor][fall back]

[Jagged Bones][animate bone minions][death nova][putrid bile][barbs][enfeebling blood][weaken armor][signet of lost souls]

[mantra of recovery][cry of frustration][power spike][drain enchantment][power drain][empathy][waste not want not][vengeance]

[weapon of fury][ancestors rage][splinter weapon][mend body and soul][spirit light][protective was kaolai][life][signet of lost souls]

Henchies - Aidan, Lina, Mhenlo, Herta

In HM drop Ancestor's Rage for [[death pact [email protected]] and Cruel Spear for [[stunning [email protected]]. Empathy can be energy-intensive, hence [[waste not want not] (10 sec recharge for +21 nrg/30 secs) for e-management. [[leech signet], [[power lock], [[remove hex], and [[epidemic] are options on the Mesmer for the Empathy or Waste Not slots.

I just did a full run 250+ foe run on the Path to Revelations in HM...fast run, only a few deaths from an Ice Imp over-agro, no-DP fast battle rezzes, no party wipes, perma-interrupted targets, piece of cake. It makes a mockery of every foe, I'd happily take this build with a tweak or two into any zone.

I'm not going to party with you draugr, you'll only slow me down, but i'm happy to post a screenie. NM is too easy (everything melts), i'm only interested in HM. It's your challenge so i'll let you be the first to post your HM time, 250+ dead and completion of The Path to Revelations (kill the bosses and chat to Kerrsh, whatever you do don't take the reward!) with your RotN W/P and 3 N/R's. Screenie to include visible Party panel, Pet & Hero panels and player skillbar - I don't want you sneaking a grab of an Ursan run in there! No need for a pissing contest, I already know the result - my build will come out on top in HM or NM, do try to keep up.

In conclusion, you can run a build that is stronger both offensively and defensively with a higher DPS, better AoE and better interrupts. This will equate to a faster run because you do more damage more often with more interrupts, thus killing things quicker. How does that not make sense?

Numbers don't lie - you're doing roughly 2/3rds the damage you could be doing by running Sab's + D-Slash and you're accumulating DP, further dropping your DPS. 'Strategic wiping' is not needed in a balanced team build and only leads to lower damage, weaker defense and running from shrines over old ground.

You just keep playing the way you've been going and i'll do my thang. I'm glad to hear you're at least including a couple of spear attacks, i can guarantee Spear of Fury + Cruel Spear / Stunning Strike will serve you better. My job here is done and I have nothing further to prove, i'll leave it up to you to try alternate builds and make your own decision. The proof as they say is in the pudding, I've posted mine. The numbers don't back up anything you're saying and it's the only objective means we have of measuring a build. The only reason you can possible reach for retaining RotN, Pets & Bows is because you like it, and that's valid enough to keep using it.

PS A mob is a group of foes, eg 6 Raptors = 1 mob of 6 foes. A mob acts as a single unit when it comes to agro, eg agro 1 foe and the mob of 6 will attack.

xxx wraith xxx · Apr 27, 2008, 11:12 PM // 23:12

lolol wouldnt have thought that 1 lvl of Death Magic made 2 lvls of difference in the minions...thnx for showing me now ill use sup death on my hero too

Antithesis · Apr 28, 2008, 12:11 AM // 00:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by xxx wraith xxx

lolol wouldnt have thought that 1 lvl of Death Magic made 2 lvls of difference in the minions...thnx for showing me now ill use sup death on my hero too

Just to be clear, i run 16 in Death Magic, that's the breakpoint for 10 Minions. I'm guessing draugr is running at most 14 DM, so it is a 2 level difference.

Bront · Apr 28, 2008, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Two levels.

[death [email protected]] vs [death [email protected]].
[animate bone [email protected]] vs [animate bone [email protected]].
[jagged [email protected]] vs [jagged [email protected]].

More and bigger bombs, 10 Minions vs 9 Minions. The -75HP can easily be countered by Survivor runes and +HP weapon / focus mods.

The extra 2 levels on 9 minions would be enough to make this switch, let alone the extra damage on Nova and the extra minion.

Yes, you take a health hit, but idealy, the MM should be near the back anyway, so not in the line of fire, and you should have enough healing to cover the MM if he does get hit. On a good team, 75 HP on one hero shouldn't be noticeable. Heck, Sabway is effective with little to no runes/insignia, though it is more effective with them.

draugr · Apr 28, 2008, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

I'm assuming you mean Radiant Insignia. I take it you don't HM much at all, they are full of fail. Little wonder you're using 'strategic wipes' to defend a weak build.

Sorry, meant inscriptions on the bows for the necros, not insignias, and I do use radiant insignias in hard mode on heroes, as opposed to sup runes and +armor or survivors. Ignoring the hot air here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Mark of Pain causes AoE scatter in HM, this may be why you're having problems with a melee Warrior.

I've replaced [mark of pain] with [reckless haste] for some time. I have no "problems" with a melee warrior, just like to farm as easily as possible standing still, chasing mobs gets old at around mob 50 for me, let alone by the end of the third 250 mob run. I've said this repeatedly, more hot air here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

So basically you're saying you won't be running the build you posted. There's no 'Varajar Fells in NM' qualifier in the OP. If the challenge is Varajar Fells with the requirement that i must run a W/P Spearchucker, here's what i'll take -

How on earth did you get that I was suggesting a test/challenge/wager, whatever you want to call it, in NM? I never farm norn in VF normal mode.The build I'm running has variable W/P slots, and as posted earlier, in a challenge, I'd likely run this:

[for great justice] [rage of the ntouka] [flail][ebon battle standard of honor] [fall back] (for speed, would leave it out if you would) [go for the eyes] [blazing spear] [merciless spear]

and would run the necros pretty much as posted with [reckless haste] replacing [mark of pain] on the curse. Pets, and savage shot on all three, maybe a different bow attack in place of volley. Maybe even... are you ready? [distracting shot]. Mhenlo, Lina, Herta and Zho as henches. On a speed run test, might switch in [putrid bile] for [blood of the master]. Re: sup death rune, I do find that the AI will often target the MM, and mine runs low 500s in health due to using a 20% enchant bow to help keep death nova and jagged on bombs longer. Stating again, for someone who thinks pets are a waste of a slot, I'm surprised you go for the extra minion or the extra two levels on what are in essence body blockers and bombs that do little damage unless buffed or hitting a barbed target.

You can run whatever you like as long as it's a ranged warrior, W/P, W/R, even W/X flaring with a wand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

I'm not going to party with you draugr, you'll only slow me down, but i'm happy to post a screenie. NM is too easy (everything melts), i'm only interested in HM. It's your challenge so i'll let you be the first to post your HM time, 250+ dead and completion of The Path to Revelations (kill the bosses and chat to Kerrsh, whatever you do don't take the reward!) with your RotN W/P and 3 N/R's. No need for a pissing contest, I already know the result - my build will come out on top in HM or NM, do try to keep up.

Suit yourself, was suggesting that we each replace herta as a warder with one of our toons (I have an ele that would do fine in herta's place) who would just keep up the wards and run a mutually agreed upon bar otherwise. I have proposed a way to test the builds against each other in a series of shortened (200 mob) VF HM runs. I'm done with forum mongering, and propose head to head, it might be fun, and we both might learn some new tricks and tweaks. If your build wins, I'll gladly pay you a cupcake and probably run it to finish out my VF rep grind on the warr. If this doesn't work for you, I'm going to take snype's short but sweet comment to heart where this thread is concerned and go back to having fun ingame as opposed to wasting precious playtime arguing here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

PS A mob is a group of foes, eg 6 Raptors = 1 mob of 6 foes. A mob acts as a single unit when it comes to agro, eg agro 1 foe and the mob of 6 will attack.

The term "mob" as applied to online games, has an etymology reaching all the way back to the good ole MUD days (pregraphical MMOs, hard to imagine such a thing now). It is an abbreviation for the term "mobile," and is descriptive of any single nonhuman played (AI) enemy (sometimes not an enemy). Its proper plural form is "mobs." In those old games, there were more commonly single monsters as opposed to groups. so less chance to confuse with the word "mob's" more common meaning. As MMOs have become graphical over the last decade, newer players not familiar with the older games and the slang, have gradually started using "mob" in its more common meaning as a group. That's fine, and as we all know, the correct usage of most words is not fixed, but relative, and evolves over time. Unlike me, however, some old time gamers will consider you noobish if you refer to a group of "mobs" as a "mob."

Antithesis · Apr 28, 2008, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Wonk wonk wonk...just post your screenie. Full 250 run in HM.

Glad to see you've taken more feedback on board, your build's looking more and more like mine all the time

xxx wraith xxx · Apr 28, 2008, 11:43 PM // 23:43

First off: thnx for the explenation of the word: Mob now I finally know what it means. Second: this thread might seem like a total waste for most people since mostly 2 people do the talking but I think this thread really shows that the goodness(is this a word?) of a team also depends on the player. I for instance like to mess with every build so it suits me better so for me the build I modded>the original build. Even tough the results might show otherwise I think it all has to do with playstyle. Anyway keep discussing you guys cause i find it verry amusing (filled bout 1.5 hours reading all posts and such) and verry verry educative (english sucks). ~cheers, Wraith~

draugr · Apr 29, 2008, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Wraith, glad you like the thread lol. Looking back, I meant to say I was gonna take snype's comment to heart about pve being "serious business."

Antithesis, just ran the build through VF HM 250 mobs, took 1:06 from first shrine to death of last facet. No idea what a screenie would prove unless there is some timer function I don't know about other than I actually did the run, could care less if you don't believe me. For speed, I think I can get it down to 55 minutes or lower with [fall back]. As I was going for rep, I doubled back to two shrines I wasn't sure if I hit or not. No wipes, two single party deaths (mhenlo once on an overaggro, livia at the 5 jotun group), one pet died at the five jotun group (which I would skip on a speed run). As for looking like your build, I have taken some suggestions, such as replacing [blood of the master] with [putrid bile] on the MM, and do appreciate those, but our builds are really not very similar. On the W/P i ran:

[for great justice] [rage of the ntouka] [enraging charge] [go for the eyes] [never surrender] [blazing spear] [merciless spear] [flail]

Truthfully, I underused my elite, rarely keeping my bar charged with it between battles, as I've been at work all day and tired, kind of cruised through and did lots of flagging and pulling. Fresh and in the morning, I believe I can get it to 55 minutes even playing conservatively. For speed and not worrying about shrines, who knows how much more time could be shaved using [fall back] ...

Two other changes I've made is running the MM like this:

[jagged bones] [animate bone minions] [death nova] [putrid explosion] [distracting shot] [charm animal] [putrid bile] [signet of lost souls]

On the SS and Icy, I have subbed in [distracting shot] for [volley] At certain times, the interrupts were meh, but others they were hilarious on the mobs.

Some things I've noticed is that lots of mob groups in VF will kill all your mins fairly quickly, so it is very nice to have the pets to bootstrap back up the meatshield, esp without blood of the master.

D-shot cut down the number of tramples and giant stomps significantly, and I didn't notice a significant dmg reduction without volley, so keeping d-shot.

There are enough corpses such that [putrid explosion] didn't distract from minion bombing, and it made a nice damage difference.

IMHO, there is absolutely no need for SY nor for more healing than the henches provide (at least in VF HM). On several occasions, I fought two groups np. I'm now r6 norn on the warrior.

Stating again, this build is not posted to be the "best" at anything. But for an easy farm of VF HM, having used both pure sabway and my rit's [great dwarf weapon] and [splinter weapon] modified sabway, this is the easiest and fastest build I've used.

Antithesis · Apr 29, 2008, 12:23 AM // 00:23

What am I, a clown? Am i here to amuse you?

As Snype said, PvE is serious business

Despite the banter the advice is solid. And you're dead right, playstyle ultimately determines the fun you'll extract from a build. That said, some builds are stronger than others, it's up to the individual to decide what works for them.

draugr, you'll need to go under 45 minutes to beat me. Come back when you've done it. Screenshot or nothing. Type /age into chat for the timer.

To keep you interested, here's the result from my first run -

...if you can't see it that's 49 mins, I've been faster since so this is just a teaser. Did shrines for max rep, picked up all drops.

I'm gunning for 40 mins, Ursans do it in 30-35 mins. I've never been on an Ursan run so have no idea of the optimal path.

This build is much faster than the OP or subsequent modifications and is not the fastest build i could use. Can i have my Birthday Cupcake now or would you rather wait to see how much faster i can go?

Terrokian · Apr 29, 2008, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

What am I, a clown? Am i here to amuse you?

As Snype said, PvE is serious business

Despite the banter the advice is solid. And you're dead right, playstyle ultimately determines the fun you'll extract from a build. That said, some builds are stronger than others, it's up to the individual to decide what works for them.

draugr, you'll need to go under 45 minutes to beat me. Come back when you've done it.

To keep you interested, here's the result from my first run -

...i've been faster since, i'm gunning for 40 mins.

Screenshot or nothing. Type /age into chat for the timer.

PvE IS SERIOUS BUSINESS.Your gold your inscriptions your weapons your shields ,hell YOUR EVERY DAMNED THING comes from PvE.Think about it for just a minute and you will get it.

Style and Enjoyment of play comes next.If you absolutely DETEST playing a Warrior(for example) guess what?You will continually HATE playing that character and advising you to do such and such with that character will pretty much be like talking to a wall.Find what you like and stick to it.

99% of the people here REALLY WANT to help you.Advice is free and so is an open mind.Maybe the advice is somewhat on target.Maybe you need to tweak it to your own tastes.But even if those conditions are true doesn't mean the advice is BAD.Think about it.

Finally although I HAVE BUTTED HEADS with Antithesis about certain things,doesn't mean HIS POINT IS INVALID.Often in the long run he was absolutely right.(Of course I still tweaked things to my taste)

Bront · Apr 29, 2008, 02:38 AM // 02:38

draugr,

Just a suggestion on Pets.

If you want to do the most damage you can with pets, You want to get dire pets at level 20. That will improve your build without changing up any skills.

I still don't think pets add a lot to the build, and you'd be better with other skills, but at least max out your pets to get the most out of them.

draugr · Apr 29, 2008, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Bront, the pets aren't there for their own dmg, but to trigger barbs primarily, soak off aggro and spells and block mobs. They give this benefit at minimal cost, and, like the interrupts on the necro bars, don't detract from the necros primary work. There is, I think a 120hp difference between a dire pet and a hearty pet, and in HM, the hp make a big difference.

Antithesis, very nice time. I will be happy to post a screenshot when I do a speed run, had forgotten that the "age" command has a "time in map" stat, but am not going to get into a "beat this time" battle here with you, especially not with my warr as the human player. I offered to do an ingame test and you declined. Your bar has three pve skills (mine none) on it and a crucial speed buff I haven't used yet (but will). If I grind the two alliance skills (which would take who knows how long to get to r4, I'm rank 0 now), I figure I can hit r10 ursan and deldrimor (r8 deldri now) on the toon in the same time, so won't be using SY or spear of fury. I will be using battle standard though in subsequent speed runs, as that was a good idea you had earlier in the thread. Without SY/SOF engine, if I can get to 50 or so minutes on a speed run, you should gladly admit that my build is not the "inferior" build you have so adamantly maintained throughout this thread (and I will expect you to at that time)... I have never claimed that any of your builds was inferior, as you have the OP build. And by all means, use whatever build you want as long as it includes a ranged human warrior. When I take the time to come back here with a screenshot of my build (which I have no idea how to post, but imagine it's not too difficult), unenhanced with SY or SOF, getting close to the time you have posted, the last thing I expect to see is more grousing about the "inferior build" I'm running, or see more hot air comments.

Terrokian, no game is "serious business" to me. I do "serious business" each and every day, and GW, tweaking heroes, low level pvp, is what I do to relax and have fun, so Smyte's point about what has gone on here in the thread is dead-on, for me anyway. Also, the warrior is just the character I'm working through the game now, my main is a rit, and that's what I enjoy playing most. The warr is my least favorite character, so though I want him r10 norn and deldrimor, I want to do it with as little micro as possible, hence the build I'm running now.

Antithesis · Apr 29, 2008, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by draugr

Without SY/SOF engine, if I can get to 50 or so minutes on a speed run, you should gladly admit that my build is not the "inferior" build you have so adamantly maintained throughout this thread (and I will expect you to at that time)... I have never claimed that any of your builds was inferior, as you have the OP build.

'If' is a big word, 'when' i get to 40 minutes your wishful-thinking 50 minute run will still be inferior, proving that Necs with Pets and Bows has been chosen for personal preference only.

As it stands you're at 66 minutes...the clock is ticking

Don't take it too seriously, it's all shits and giggles draugr.

draugr · Apr 29, 2008, 05:06 AM // 05:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

'If' is a big word, 'when' i get to 40 minutes your wishful-thinking 50 minute run will still be inferior, proving that Necs with Pets and Bows has been chosen for personal preference only.

As it stands you're at 66 minutes...the clock is ticking

Don't take it too seriously, it's all shits and giggles draugr.

Replace the alliance pve skills in your build or there is no clock yet on pet/bow necros. If you are blowing up three groups of cows at a time in quasi godmode, it says nothing about the viability of key characteristics of the OP build, other than it needs godmode and a speedbuff to be a little faster moving, and as you recall, it was posted originally with SY.

I will admit that I may have been wrong about SOF as an engine for SY. However, I'm not going to grind from 0-4 luxon to find out when my build is gonna do 50ish minutes with fall back but sans SY.

In any event, I've two days off work later in the week, so will provide a screenie by the end of the week.

Bront · Apr 29, 2008, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by draugr

Bront, the pets aren't there for their own dmg, but to trigger barbs primarily, soak off aggro and spells and block mobs. They give this benefit at minimal cost, and, like the interrupts on the necro bars, don't detract from the necros primary work. There is, I think a 120hp difference between a dire pet and a hearty pet, and in HM, the hp make a big difference.

You were still using level 5-7 pets last you talked. That's still just blah.

That's why minions are generaly superior. They can die, and you don't care, you just make more. They also don't get death penalty (I think pets do, but I'm not sure).

Seriously, try it with Dire animals, and see if that helps.

Antithesis · Apr 29, 2008, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by draugr

Replace the alliance pve skills in your build or there is no clock yet on pet/bow necros. If you are blowing up three groups of cows at a time in quasi godmode...

You'll never know until you let go of the RotN build and broaden your horizons. You reserve the right to pick whatever skills you want but refuse me the same privilege? Sounds like someone has double-standards and likes changing the rules when they're not winning. It's not my fault you either don't have the PvE skills or can't fit them on the bar. You're already gimping me by limiting me to a ranged Warrior. I won't drop the PvE skills unless you revert to the build you originally posted. If not, i'll pick and choose what i want too.

I look forward to your screenies. It will say more about finding the optimal path through the zone than the quality of the build. Both of us can cut 10 mins off our first runs by learning the zone, if that's all we can manage you'll still be 17 minutes behind. I hope it ends up closer to 10 minutes difference.

When you do get a decent time downpat, please try again with a D-Slasher and Sabway and post that time too. I'll do the same so we have a baseline to measure against. Only then will you know the value of adding RotN, Pets and Bows to the build.

Here's the second run -

... Dud run, had a wipe. Used Cruel Spear this time, experimented with equipment and generally fart-arsed around. Forgot to wear Norn title, farming Raptors again. Still cracked 45 min, I'll post the next one when i go under 40. 35 mins is looking possible

draugr · Apr 29, 2008, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

You'll never know until you let go of the RotN build and broaden your horizons. You reserve the right to pick whatever skills you want but refuse me the same privilege? Sounds like someone has double-standards and likes changing the rules when they're not winning. It's not my fault you either don't have the PvE skills or can't fit them on the bar. You're already gimping me by limiting me to a ranged Warrior. I won't drop the PvE skills unless you revert to the build you originally posted. If not, i'll pick and choose what i want too.

Your logic is impeccable... in it's invalidity. I proposed a head to head test for exactly this reason, as I knew this is how you would play it, just as you have with your other "conclusive" screenshots. Not having SY, I have no idea how many groups of cows you can pull and explode at the same time with impunity, and if I saw it with my own eyes, you wouldn't be able to gloat and carry on here so. Using SY to discredit a build that includes it but doesn't have it grinded out yet makes sense in your lalalogic land I'm sure, proves nothing whatsoever about the viability of pet/bow necros in the OP build. I'm sure you will continue to offer godmode screenies one after the other... proving nothing other than you are learning the run better.

Once more, when I do the run without SY/SOF in 50isih minutes, I will expect you to renege on your discrediting the OP build. I have no interest in doing the run with a D-slasher as this creates too much micro and hassle, which is the whole purpose of the W/P, as I've stated again and again and again. I know that melee will be faster already, always have, use a D-slash knocklock build all the time when grouping.

As far as sabway, I used sabway for months with the rit spamming splinter and gdw, and it was in the right range of micro management for grinding, but felt the speed could be improved as the VF HM run does not require all the defense that sabway has. I've been looking all along to grind rep with a lazy build on the human end that doesn't have to micro that much. D-slash is too much micro, as is SY. The OP build offers both speed and ease.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

35 mins is looking possible

Ya, quasi godmode sounds real fast. Unfortunately, I'd have to spend well over 100 hours to grind out SY to the 4 second level and in that time, I can have the warr to r10 norn with the OP build several times over. Do the math...