Curse

Antithesis · Apr 24, 2008, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by draugr

wall of text...
--snip--
And Antithesis, please spend more time "proving" with screenies that a D-slash, brawling hb ODs other warrior builds... amusing.

Pets and Minions buffed by GFTE, Weaken Armor and Barbs don't make that much difference compared to just taking a minion bomber. It's not "extremely high damage", 200DPS is easy to reach.

No shit that a D-Slasher will outdamage your bar, you've completely missed the point - 200-ish damage + interrupts can easily be achieved with and without Pets, and Pets can be put to better use. Volley, Marksmanship and Savage Shot adds nothing to your build. You could have stuck with [[disrupting lunge] or [[bestial mauling] + [[call of haste] + [[great dwarf weapon] to achieve better interrupts and higher damage (remember, i used two lvl 5 Pets) without watering down your atts.

If you want a fast-adrenaline building W/P spear-chucker, why not just use [[Spear of Fury] with [[anthem of weariness] or [[anthem of flame] and [[for great justice]? Your elite is a waste and prevents optimal use of Save Yourselves!, take [[Cruel Spear] or [[stunning strike] instead. You'll have a high-damage bar that builds adrenaline quickly and can spam adrenal skills on recharge.

It's just a game, do what you want. But realise your build is mediocre and you've gimped your Necs for no other reason than you wanted Pets and Bows.

draugr · Apr 25, 2008, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Pets and Minions buffed by GFTE, Weaken Armor and Barbs don't make that much difference compared to just taking a minion bomber. It's not "extremely high damage", 200DPS is easy to reach.

I didn't post this build to give the rationale for it, or defend it, but because someone in another area of the boards asked for help with VF rep farming in hard mode. Your repeated, snotty, ill-reasoned comments in this thread couched with " o it's just a game," and "run what you want," (to water down the snide factor? who knows), caused me to go ahead and post the (wall of text) thought behind the build, and how months of experimentation arrived at it so that anyone who wanted to try it wouldn't be put off by your armchair comments. It's obvious you didn't read the post, fine. It's pretty obvious that something in my posts has annoyed you to no end, what, did I pwn you in RA or something? or are you just trolling?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

No shit that a D-Slasher will outdamage your bar, you've completely missed the point - 200-ish damage + interrupts can easily be achieved with and without Pets, and Pets can be put to better use. Volley, Marksmanship and Savage Shot adds nothing to your build. You could have stuck with [[disrupting lunge] or [[bestial mauling] + [[call of haste] + [[great dwarf weapon] to achieve better interrupts and higher damage (remember, i used two lvl 5 Pets) without watering down your atts.

I rarely miss points but it's possible. How bout you? The damage from your screenshot was augmented by a d-slash, brawling, steelfang spammer, an incredibly good melee build, exactly the kind of thing I am trying to get away from when farming rep, capping, running through zones fronting H/H, missions, etc., which you should have known from the first line in my first post. And since you didn't figure it out then, you should have had you read the "wall of text." The fact is that your build does much less dmg without the d-slash/bh/steelfang combo, maybe 90-100dps less... I can and do use that very same combo, but when grinding, I want something that requires a little less micro. Got it yet?

Again, you ignore all the points about pets and focus on raw dmg only. Disrupting lunge? Bestial mauling? as better interrupts than [savage shot] ?You have to be trolling now...

Would love to spam GDW like I do on my rit... tough to do with a warrior...

As I've said before, I don't have SY yet, and frankly, the build works so well I haven't needed it. But [rage of the ntouka] gives it a recharge of five seconds. If two seconds without the +100 armor makes things tough, then a H/H build really is deficient...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

If you want a fast-adrenaline building W/P spear-chucker, why not just use [[Spear of Fury] with [[anthem of weariness] or [[anthem of flame] and [[for great justice]? Your elite is a waste and prevents optimal use of Save Yourselves!, take [[Cruel Spear] or [[stunning strike] instead. You'll have a high-damage bar that builds adrenaline quickly and can spam adrenal skills on recharge.

[Spear of fury] fails because 1. It's an energy skill, 2. It's conditional, and 3. I'm not grinding allegiance to the point to make that effective. [anthem of flame] does 14 dmg with 0 leadership, again fail v [anthem of envy] at +20 and it's also an energy skill. You obviously didn't read the rationale behind [rage of the ntouka]. IMO, [merciless spear] > either of the two elites you mention... Have considered [stunning strike] but my necros interrupt so much it just isn't necessary for the build's purpose. Zho's BHA is fine for daze.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

It's just a game, do what you want. But realise your build is mediocre and you've gimped your Necs for no other reason than you wanted Pets.

Reading is fundamental on discussion forums... try it.

Antithesis · Apr 25, 2008, 05:09 AM // 05:09

The screenies was a direct comparison of D-Slasher vs D-Slasher, one with 3 x Pets + 9 Minions vs 1 Pet + 10 Minions for a negligable difference in damage. Did i really need to spell that out for you? And besides it not being the point of the post, both builds do more damage than your build on a 4 vs 4 comparison despite using two lvl 5 Pets...why would i use an inferior build?

DPS aside (you brought that up with your "extremely high damage" comment and Master of Damage post), your Pets offer little to no defensive advantage and add an extra layer of weakness to a team in HM, as does spec'ing into 4 att lines. Sure, they work fine in NM, but what doesn't? HM favours simplicity and efficiency over gimmicks. You've done little more than stick Pets on Sabway and weakened the overall build.

Are you seriously telling me you're incapable of running an energy-based attack on a Warrior? Stunning Strike eliminates the need for piddly bow attacks on gimped Necros. Anthem of Flame / Anthem of Weariness are to trigger Cruel / Stunning / Spear of Fury. Reading comprehension FTW so right back at ya buddy. Anthem of Envy is fine, I have no issue with it. Merciless Spear is conditional and has no +dmg, as the only attack skill in your build it's crap IMHO. Disrupting Lunge disables a skill for 20 secs, Bestial Mauling causes Dazed, Call of Haste increases attack rate which disrupts a Dazed target on EVERY attack and you don't need to spec into 4 lines.

If you can't take criticism in the spirit intended - to question the relative strengths/weaknesses of your build and offer alternative solutions - then don't post at all. If you can't handle it and resort to name-calling and e-peening to attempt to get your point across then you need more help than i can offer, not that i give a crap. I know you're not asking for help but others who read this thread are entitled to be aware of alternatives, so i'll post regardless.

I've tested your build both against the Master of Damage and in HM Varajar Fells, so whilst my initial comments may have been 'armchair' in origin, i've now used it in the wild and it's meh all the way. I have played nice (i could have just said crap build...next!) in an attempt to assist in the development of the build, but your failure to recognise the inadequacies of the build and your unwillingness to accept feedback forces me to tell you what i really think.

The W/P feels like i'm standing in quicksand, it's so slow it's not funny (i'm not referring to the movement speed debuff from Flail) and does almost no damage in HM beyond 10-ish damage auto-attacks and the occasional Anthem of Envy buff - it was like throwing chalk at a brick wall. A run down the bar requires you to wait for the full 15 sec recharge of RotN to be effective. The only attack skill is ineffective until a foe is half dead. Anthem of Weariness is redundant, read the skill description for [[enfeebling blood]. The rate at which you can use Anthem of Envy and GFTE means they contribute sweet FA to the bar and are better replaced with Spear Attacks. With so many adrenal skills usage of Save Yourselves is severely compromised. In summary - it's a bad build, the only redeeming factor is Never Surrender! which will actually see some use.

Your hero build is an attempted hybrid between Barrage/Pet and Sabway and fails on both fronts. I saw no evidence of the much touted 200DPS nor effective use of bow interrupts. The Pet meatshield failed to materialise as agro spread uncontrollably throughout the team with the W/P in the mid-line. Heroes are bad with [[revive animal] and the nearby range makes it all but useless as a battle rez. Pets died, i didn't notice and had to waste time, go back and position the rezzer on top of the corpse to get a reliable rez. The only reason Pets don't die more often is because the Minions take the heat off them. Minions appeared to hover at around 5 total. The build has no stance removal, poor enchant stripping, poor Hex control, poor Condition control, weak Henchy-reliant healing and weakened Hero atts. The only good thing about it is your enhanced odds of accumulating DP....joy! If you over-agro just a little, be prepared for a party-wipe.

Varajar Fells is an easy Vanq zone, this will not hold up in mid to high-end HM. It is significantly slower, weaker and more cumbersome than just using Sabway, there's no advantage taking it over existing much better builds. It does work because the core of the build is Sabway which is difficult to fault, but your additions / alterations weaken it, slow it down and add unnecessary vulnerabilities. The player bar is a random assortment of sub-par skills that does very little to benefit the team. You're a Warrior, play like one and you'll do far better.

I've taken the time to analyse the strengths and weaknesses of the build. I've responded to your reasoning with suggestions to improve the build and tested alternatives that in my view strengthen the build, despite knowing it is complete and utter shite. Take it or leave it.

Thanks for posting your crappy build. Don't be so precious. Go somewhere else if you want smoke blown up your arse.

draugr · Apr 25, 2008, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

If you can't take criticism in the spirit intended - to question the relative strengths/weaknesses of your build and offer alternative solutions - then don't post at all.

"then don't post at all," hmm, is there a "finger wagging" icon? fits here...

Criticism is fine...

"Taking pets is little more than a gimmick" (define "gimmick" please)

"a mongrel dog of a build that does enough to do the job, but does nothing particularly well" (reads kind of like a wine review)

"I'm trying very hard to be nice" (my favorite)

"hence it's an gimmick build" (gimmick again)

"By all means run your build and enjoy doing it, that's the beauty of this game - there's a million ways to skin a cat... I won't be using it because i know it's weaker than alternatives." (thanks for your permission, and for the passive-aggressive takeaway)

"I ran a D-Slasher because your W/P build is silly"

And erm, -I- am epeening? who are you, the protector from bad builds here? For someone who doesn't actually read posts, and respond fairly to the points made therein, yet claims not to "give a crap," you sure do lots of e-peentification...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

If you can't handle it and resort to name-calling and e-peening to attempt to get your point across then you need more help than i can offer, not that i give a crap. I know you're not asking for help but others who read this thread are entitled to be aware of alternatives, so i'll post regardless.

So where in the thread is this purported name-calling (other than "passive-aggressive" above, you earned that one) or epeening on MY end?

"So i'll post regardless,"

Cool! tell me some more about how great [disrupting lunge] is... can't wait...

Antithesis · Apr 25, 2008, 06:07 AM // 06:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by draugr

And erm, -I- am epeening? who are you, the protector from bad builds here? For someone who doesn't actually read posts, and respond fairly to the points made therein, yet claims not to "give a crap," you sure do lots of e-peentification...

So where in the thread is this purported name-calling (other than "passive-aggressive" above, you earned that one) or epeening on MY end?

I read all of your posts, i'm not going to put the whole thing into a quote when most of it is pointless ramble. Your skill selections aren't the best, you can't see it because you're attached to your build. If you don't want the truth, seriously, don't post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draugr

what, did I pwn you in RA or something? or are you just trolling?

Name-calling or e-peening, take your pick. I've done neither. QQ more.

JoeKnowMo · Apr 25, 2008, 06:40 AM // 06:40

If you're going to get all emo about criticism, especially criticism backed up by numbers, you shouldn't post on guru. There's another online *hint* GW forum that will suit you more.

Terrokian · Apr 25, 2008, 08:44 AM // 08:44

I got 2 cents here.Listen to Antithesis.I did and am now very rich.My hall of heroes is getting filled and I'm really enjoying the game.My builds are a lot deadlier.Just goes on and on.

Washi · Apr 25, 2008, 09:20 AM // 09:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by draugr

[Spear of fury] fails because 1. It's an energy skill, 2. It's conditional, and 3. I'm not grinding allegiance to the point to make that effective.

That statement makes you look stupid.

1. It's a cheap energy skill which is great cause you don't steal adrenaline from SY.
2. I dunno about you but my enemies are weakened [skill]Enfeebling Blood[/skill] and bleeding [skill]Jagged Bones[/skill] so It's kinda hard to find a target without a condition.
3. SoF Is effective on lvl 3 which is minimum for SY to be considered useful, on 5 it's awesome.

I H/H'ed Duncan on HM few days ago and I tell you without SoF I would fail miserably. It saved my ass so many times when my attacks got blocked and I needed an adrenaline boost asap.

draugr · Apr 25, 2008, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Washi

That statement makes you look stupid.

1. It's a cheap energy skill which is great cause you don't steal adrenaline from SY.
2. I dunno about you but my enemies are weakened [skill]Enfeebling Blood[/skill] and bleeding [skill]Jagged Bones[/skill] so It's kinda hard to find a target without a condition.
3. SoF Is effective on lvl 3 which is minimum for SY to be considered useful, on 5 it's awesome.

I H/H'ed Duncan on HM few days ago and I tell you without SoF I would fail miserably. It saved my ass so many times when my attacks got blocked and I needed an adrenaline boost asap.

You are talking about a P/W with a regening 30 nrg pool, not a 20 nrg pool W/P. Even stupid people know that on a warr bar with a few energy skills already, more is a bad idea, especially when the warr is front-loading lots of adrenaline from an elite and [for great justice].

Good for you on Duncan HM, that's not what my build is designed to do, but go ahead and post your build, and I will try it. If it does what I need done better than mine I will use it. So far, none of the alternative builds posted in this thread do what I want to do better than mine. Unlike others here, I don't have any axe to grind. I just don't appreciate the condescending tone and snide comments here (i.e. makes you look stupid...).

draugr · Apr 25, 2008, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrokian

I got 2 cents here.Listen to Antithesis.I did and am now very rich.My hall of heroes is getting filled and I'm really enjoying the game.My builds are a lot deadlier.Just goes on and on.

I'm very happy for you, even Britney Spears has fans somewhere I'm sure, but I have plenty of money, my HOM on my main is full, and my builds do what they are supposed to do very well, thanks.

draugr · Apr 25, 2008, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

If you're going to get all emo about criticism, especially criticism backed up by numbers, you shouldn't post on guru. There's another online *hint* GW forum that will suit you more.

There has been some legitimate criticism in this thread, but overshadowed by epeen and condescension. BTW, are you talking about the D-slash screenshot? LOL if so...

draugr · Apr 25, 2008, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

I read all of your posts, i'm not going to put the whole thing into a quote when most of it is pointless ramble. Your skill selections aren't the best, you can't see it because you're attached to your build. If you don't want the truth, seriously, don't post.

Name-calling or e-peening, take your pick. I've done neither. QQ more.

So you have time to adopt an arrogant, condescending tone, when I never asked for your advice (and don't need it), and instead of reading and thoughtfully responding to my generally well-reasoned points, you dismiss them with "pointless ramble," yet elsewhere you claim to "not give a crap," and then when I quote your snide comments in the thread, you tell me that -I- shouldn't post any more? and that -I- have a problem with criticism...

Eh, folks reading the thread can make up their own minds. I'm done responding to poorly reasoned one-liners and epeen.

Reasoned and responsive comments to the OP and subsequent posts are still appreciated as always. I'm not the one with some gaming axe to grind here as my posts in this thread up until I'd had enough "noise" clearly prove...

xxx wraith xxx · Apr 25, 2008, 05:12 PM // 17:12

guys...stick to the topic. It was about a build not bout 2 people calling eachother names and such. Still i think its pretty stupid to mess with a farmlegend like Antithesis. I dont say I think no1 should dissagree with him but I mean he is a verry expirienced player with a shtload of nice build. His comments are 99% of the time to help people out. I mean like in this thread he just showed that you could do 'the same' dmg without the pets. Now its youre choice, take the pets just cause you like em or drop them for other skills youre choice. All he did was make his pnt. Nuff Said.
~cheers, Wraith~

PS: i know i didnt stick to the topic either

draugr · Apr 25, 2008, 06:37 PM // 18:37

OK, so after boatloads of tossoff comments, you actually used the build. Will respond in kind. I did not catch the edit on the post, hence the late reply.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

The W/P feels like i'm standing in quicksand, it's so slow it's not funny (i'm not referring to the movement speed debuff from Flail)

Then what are you referring to? The toon has a permanent 33% IAS. This comment makes no sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

and does almost no damage in HM beyond 10-ish damage auto-attacks and the occasional Anthem of Envy buff - it was like throwing chalk at a brick wall.

This is incorrect and hyperbole to boot. 10ish? LOL. The average yellow number I see is 30, not great, but then I'm not running around but standing still. Much easier, and things still die very fast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

A run down the bar requires you to wait for the full 15 sec recharge of RotN to be effective.

Incorrect. Rage under FGJ loads 10 adrenaline. Attacks reload GFTE and anthem of envy so that they are ready again in five seconds, and again five seconds after that. Then rage is up again. and they are again immediately available. Hexbreaker aria in VF usually sits idle, but it's there for blurred and vaettirs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

The only attack skill is ineffective until a foe is half dead.

and this takes all of 3-7 seconds depending. Oftentimes, I am applying DW to the second mob as the first mob dies too fast...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Anthem of Weariness is redundant, read the skill description for [[enfeebling blood].

A valid comment. [Enfeebling blood] often does not catch all the mobs in the big groups in VF, the second volley usually does. I have noticed that it is not required and will likely replace it. Thanks for the valid comment...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

The rate at which you can use Anthem of Envy and GFTE means they contribute sweet FA to the bar and are better replaced with Spear Attacks. With so many adrenal skills usage of Save Yourselves is severely compromised.

blazing spear may be a good replacement for envy. I disagree that GFTE is sweet FA. A crit is a crit, max on a given damage range. I can tell a noticeable killing speed difference when it's up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

In summary - it's a bad build, the only redeeming factor is Never Surrender! which will actually see some use.

Ignoring the tossoff comment. Never Surrender is proving quite useful, and is, in light of all the motivation nerfs, an overlooked para skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Your hero build is an attempted hybrid between Barrage/Pet and Sabway and fails on both fronts.

Another empty tossoff. Never claimed it was some uber new build, and have acknowledged that it came from sabway from the start. I'm not in the business of "build fame." Posted because someone in the GWEN forum asked for help with a H/M VF H/H build, and this was the proper place to post the build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

I saw no evidence of the much touted 200DPS nor effective use of bow interrupts.

Having tried sabway and many variants, this build kills and farms faster. As far as interrupts, your statement is flat out wrong...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

The Pet meatshield failed to materialise as agro spread uncontrollably throughout the team with the W/P in the mid-line.

Your statement is really saying that 1. meatshields don't work to reduce aggro, and 2. that the concepts. "frontline," "backline," and "midline," have meaning in H/H pve. Both statements are false. Meatshields are useful, pets contribute greatly. AI is programmed to attack the healers, weakest armor, and weakest hp, so it ignores a warrior as it should, no matter the warrior's placement. You can circumvent this by giving the AI more choices with more units (pets) or reducing your relative armor with SY, or wearing lots of runes. You can also circumvent this by flagging back the H/H and taking all aggro yourself at first, but this slows the run, Nothing new here...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Heroes are bad with [[revive animal] and the nearby range makes it all but useless as a battle rez.

The skill should be disabled and used manually after battle. Now that my pets are lvl 20, 540 hp and 80 armor, they don't die very much. Almost never in single group engagements. The jotun usually get them. Once you are used to it, the res is easy to micro, if a timed bonus is up, you just move on without the pets. Not sure of how long skills are disabled on pet death, but it is not ten seconds...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Pets died, i didn't notice and had to waste time, go back and position the rezzer on top of the corpse to get a reliable rez. The only reason Pets don't die more often is because the Minions take the heat off them. Minions appeared to hover at around 5 total.

You don't "notice" something dead on the party screen? Whatever... Every once in awhile the pet is dead more than an aggro bubble away, very rarely. Usually they are a couple of steps away. Yes, minions take heat off pets, good, so what? Damage done to pets is not being done to the team, a good thing. I love it when casters cast hexes, conditions and dmg on the 80 AL pets instead of the 60 AL casters. It means they aren't being cast on the team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

The build has no stance removal,

True... most H/H builds don't. I just don't see many mobs making effective use of stances. Therefore, stance removal for my purposes, is a waste.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

poor enchant stripping,

Most H/H builds only use one slot for enchantment removal. I used to use chillblains and like the skill, just don't really find a need as despite your experience, lots of enchants are getting interrupted. I noticed this last night on am aurochs, had four casts in a row interrupted. The bonder cent shamans are targeted first and constantly interrupted. I've seen healing hands, deep freeze, word of healing, ice spikes, healing signet, blurred vision, any glyphs, maelstrom, etc. interrupted many many times by the heroes. The interrupting is so frequent that I have added bows and [savage shot] to my rit team as well to great effect. I am not, as you say, married to any build, but when something works I use it, and in my experience and testing, increasing each play session, [savage shot] on a necro is a very good thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

poor Hex control, poor Condition control,

hex aria is actually pretty decent hex control, and as stated, lots of hexes are getting interrupted. The only times I wish for a little more are on the five jotun group. Conditions just aren't killers in VF, and if they are in another area, would switch elites to cautery or the motivation condition elite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

weak Henchy-reliant healing and weakened Hero atts. The only good thing about it is your enhanced odds of accumulating DP....joy! If you over-agro just a little, be prepared for a party-wipe.

Tossoff comments mostly. This build does wipe more than the build I use on the rit. [Offering of spirit] [recuperation] [rejuvenation] [protective was kaolai] [splinter weapon] [spirit light] [great dwarf weapon] [death pact signet] but it kills faster, making up the difference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Varajar Fells is an easy Vanq zone, this will not hold up in mid to high-end HM.

...and it isn't designed to. It kills faster than sabway without sacrificing defense, and allowing for easy ranged rep grinding by the human warrior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

It is significantly slower, weaker and more cumbersome than just using Sabway, there's no advantage taking it over existing much better builds. It does work because the core of the build is Sabway which is difficult to fault, but your additions / alterations weaken it, slow it down and add unnecessary vulnerabilities.

More generic tossoff and just wrong. I ran sabway for many months and am well familiar with the difference. I used the build with pets to grind from 5-10 norn in ONE long play session on the rit. The annoying thing about your alleged "constructive criticism" is that it's 90% hot air and tossoff comments, 5% bad advice, and only 5% interesting ideas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Thanks for posting your crappy build. Don't be so precious. Go somewhere else if you want smoke blown up your arse.

And then, despite the poor value of your unsolicited advice and unneeded "help," when disagreed with, you always manage to slide in some condescending insult, together with a "precious" comment. Really need that "finger wagging" icon. Given the "value" of your "constructive criticism" in this thread, I'll opt for the "leave it" option.

draugr · Apr 25, 2008, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by xxx wraith xxx

Still i think its pretty stupid to mess with a farmlegend like Antithesis. I dont say I think no1 should dissagree with him but I mean he is a verry expirienced player with a shtload of nice build.

Didn't realize this and could care less, but good to know. It explains lots of the goings on in this thread in the epeen department and definitely a lot of the hot air being blown about.

Antithesis · Apr 25, 2008, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Draugr, I took enough interest in the build to spend a few hours to test it and offer balanced, yes balanced feedback about the skills you've selected. I'm sorry i've hurt your feelings by not embracing mediocrity.

The difference between us is I tried your build - you've taken a dogmatic approach and dismissed every piece of criticism and advice to improve your build as "wrong" without actually trying any of them. In essence what you're implying is you've improved upon Sabway by adding Pets and giving the Necros bows. Instead of creating overly-complex and inefficient builds, you could leave the Resto and MM as Sab's default and drop the SS for a dedicated interrupter, a Mesmer works really well in VF.

If you want Pets, interrupts and a ranged Warrior for HM VF, the simplest solution is to drop the Bows, give [[Call of Protection] and [[Call of Haste] to the Pets, add [[Stunning Strike] to your W/P and end up with better results.

[build prof=Warrior/Paragon Strength=10+1+1 Spear=11 Command=10][enduring harmony][for great justice][flail][spear of fury][stunning strike][go for the eyes][save yourselves][never surrender][/build]
[build prof=Necromancer/Ranger Curses=10+1+1 Beast=11 Soul=10+1][spiteful spirit][barbs][enfeebling blood][weaken armor][call of protection][call of haste][charm animal][signet of lost souls][/build]
[build prof=Necromancer/Ranger Death=12+3+1 Beast=10 Soul=8+1][jagged bones][animate bone minions][death nova][putrid bile][call of protection][call of haste][charm animal][signet of lost souls][/build]
[build prof=Necromancer/Ranger Soul=12+1+1 Beast=12 Blood=3][icy veins][mark of fury][rip enchantment][call of protection][call of haste][charm animal][revive animal][signet of lost souls][/build]

Options - [[cruel spear], [[brawling headbutt] (you're still in Melee range much of the time), [[disrupting lunge], [[bestial pounce], [[bestial mauling], [[putrid explosion], [[mark of pain], [[rising bile]

Defense and offense, whilst an improvement are sub-par, but it'll achieve the desired result despite the odd party wipe. It still can't handle over-agro particularly well, the third hero is weak and the build can be further improved -

[build prof=Warrior/Paragon Strength=10+1+1 Spear=11 Command=10][enduring harmony][for great justice][flail][spear of fury][stunning strike][go for the eyes][save yourselves][ebon battle standard of honor][/build]
[build prof=Necromancer/Ranger Curses=10+1+1 Beast=11 Soul=10+1][spiteful spirit][barbs][enfeebling blood][weaken armor][call of protection][call of haste][charm animal][revive animal][/build]
[build prof=Necromancer/Ranger Death=12+3+1 Beast=10 Soul=8+1][jagged bones][animate bone minions][death nova][putrid bile][call of protection][call of haste][charm animal][signet of lost souls][/build]
[build prof=Necromancer/Ritualist Soul=8+1+1 Channeling=10 Restoration=12][weapon of fury][splinter weapon][mend body and soul][spirit light][protective was kaolai][life][signet of lost souls][death pact signet][/build]

Oh noes!! We've lost a Pet! Instead of being all but useless, the third hero provides an adrenaline & energy boost for the W/P, better healing & condition-removal, a battle rez and a big damage boost. We can now take [[ebon battle standard of honor] in place of [[never surrender], it's no longer needed. If you prefer, keep Icy Veins and Never Surrender. Slot [[revive animal] on the SS in place of Signet of Lost Souls.

Tested - improved damage, adrenaline, energy, defense, survivability, speed, condition-removal, healing and interrupts...Dazed FTW. This is a hot knife through butter compared to the OP build. Much better offense, defense and ability to handle over-agro. Mhenlo's Hex removal is enough.

You obviously can't tell shit from clay draugr. The results speak for themselves (better team build, particularly the W/P bar) yet you choose to ignore the blatantly obvious instead of taking the feedback on board, that's fine, i seriously don't care. By all means keep resorting to personal attacks to protect your vanity. It's water off a duck's back, I don't have a grudge against you and I'm not taking anything you're saying personally. I suggest you do the same instead of getting hostile and defensive about a build that can easily be improved.

I still wouldn't take this build - drop the SS from Sabway and slot in a Domination Mesmer (see previous posts) and you'll have an easier run.
This is my final post in this thread so instead of arguing, let's agree to disagree and let the thread get back on track.

Super Igor · Apr 26, 2008, 12:19 AM // 00:19

I dont see any point in taking pets and bow necs, I can be wrong though, maybe its a new trend'o.

~Super Igor

~

draugr · Apr 26, 2008, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Draugr, I took enough interest in the build to spend a few hours to test it and offer balanced, yes balanced feedback about the skills you've selected. I'm sorry i've hurt your feelings by not embracing mediocrity.

My "feelings" have never been at issue here, nor are they generally on internet forums, especially gaming forums. Yet again, you ignore my point by point analysis of your "feedback," which largely consists of dismissive hot air not backed by substance and lots of factual misstatements.

Any animosity in this thread started when you started blowing hot air without being responsive to any of my points and counterpoints, tried in vain to catch me in a factual misstatement "if you are going to say something say it right, (lol)" and posted ridiculous screenshots using lvl 5 pets and a d-slash. Has nothing to do with my supposed lack of tolerance for criticism. The fact that some of your "balanced feedback" has consisted of blatantly BAD suggestions [disrupting lunge], [anthem of flame], [weapon of fury], and yet your tone continues to be condescending (not warranted) hasn't helped matters.

I DID try the icy necro as a N/Rt, and posted the results. I DID remove the weakness chant. I HAVE tried a dom mesmer instead of one of the necros in the past. I DID start out, strangely enough, months ago, with COH and COP on the bars instead of [savage shot] and [volley].

On to your present "analysis," the first build. Stating again that I started out with COP and COH in case you read this post as carefully as others. COH is good, but when using minions, I don't want the pets too far out ahead of the minions. They have a head start already without COH, and are usually the first to engage the mobs. The IAS of COH is nice, but overall, the skill just wasn't worth a slot, so I dropped it. I did use it for about a month though. COP is very nice at keeping pets alive, but as stated before in the thread, at level 20 in the VF run, they just don't die enough to justify it, and when they do, they are quickly ressed or left behind while a bonus is up. It got dropped, and did not use it as long as I used COH.

Your first build posted has NO INTERRUPTS on the heroes. I find that spreading interrupts among the team is far more effective than having several interrupts on one bar. [savage shot] takes up three slots on my build, can interrupt anything, carries a decent dmg bonus on spells, recharges as fast as any interrupt in the game, and soul reaping allows it to be spammed. Synergy by converting normally non physical attackers to physical for [barbs], [mark of pain], [go for the eyes] is icing on the cake.

The spear stun is superfluous and a wasted elite, as I usually carry Zho with BHA. [mark of fury] is only useful on the W/P, which will allow more SY, but honestly, I'm not seeing a need for SY or more or faster adrenaline. [mark of fury] is a wasted slot imo.

In your screenshot, I notice that your pets are 340? hp or my eyes are bad(the print is small, could be 540 looks like 340). I can assure you that the pets survive better and don't get slaughtered at 540hp and 80 armor, so if you are testing with lower pets, you aren't getting the full picture. I also notice that you run sup runes on your necros (or maybe there was significant DP?), which I do not advise with the build. This will suck aggro off of the minions and pets and onto your heroes, which is undesirable. Ideally, I want minions to take the most aggro, pets next, then me, then the heroes. This may explain your earlier comment that aggro was running rampant through the party. Also don't see your norn hp buff posted. I sometimes forget to change titles also, but it makes a difference farming VF.

In summary, I used the first build you have posted for some time, and it doesn't work as well as the OP build for my stated purpose.

On to the next build. Repeat the comments on COH and COP. As posted earlier in the thread, I tried the Icy necro as a [splinter weapon] spammer for an entire run, and though it outperformed the N/R volley/interrupter on the easy cows, it lagged in defense during the more difficult areas where the cents, elementals and popup vaettirs are all intermingled. Admittedly, I did not try it as a N/Rt healer as you have, but just don't find the extra healing necessary in VF. I generally find heroes used as healers in rep farming to be overkill, and though you can make it through more overaggro with a hero healer, I find it usually quicker to kill a few mobs of the overaggro, wipe, then set up and kill the rest than to slog through the long battle.

As my main is a rit, I do not like using death pact on heroes farming rep or most any other time, and would only use it disabled, never as a battle rez. The AI has no concept of playing defensively while under the effects of DPS and because the ressed toon is weaker, it is often the immediate spike target of mob AI, which WILL often cause an unnecessary wipe after a single death. As stated before, I usually find it faster to wipe and reform than spend lots of time ressing to pull out of an overaggro. To each his own here, I certainly understand if you don't like the concept of strategic wiping, I'm just concerned with speed and ease. DP is easily and quickly worked off in HM rep farming, and the end bosses are doable easily with DP.

I also have a hunch that you are approaching this entire thread as a proposed vanquishing build, and this is not the purpose, as stated. I don't do vanquishing, only grind rep for the neato pve skills, but if I did, would not carry the OP build without more defense.

I like [putrid bile] and want the minions to blow up also (which yours will without any minion healing in the bar), but I wouldn't leave [blood of the master] out of the bar or you end up with fewer bombs moving into each fight, and the recharge on [jagged bones] is longish, so you want minions healed a bit so they can live long enough for the MM to get around to putting jagged on them. You need to keep the bombs a bit healthy in my experience. i have also tried dropping the MM entirely for a corpse bomber with [putrid explosion] [rising bile] and [putrid bile] great H/H skills all. Even posted that variant in the first post. It isn't as effective as a MM. I know this isn't responsive to your build, but wanted to throw it in so you might understand that the OP build came from much real world grinding and process, and isn't just something I cooked up on paper.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Tested - improved damage, adrenaline, energy, defense, survivability, speed, condition-removal, healing and interrupts...Dazed FTW. This is a hot knife through butter compared to the OP build.

Forgive me for not testing this premise, but on it's face this can't be the case with the Icy veins turned into a healer and no interrupts. If it looked anywhere near reasonably fast, I assure you I'd try it. Contrary to your statements, I have tested several of the ideas posted in this thread, and have made some changes, and contemplating more. Your second build is indisputably heartier than my OP, which is overkill in VF IMO, but there is no way it kills faster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

You obviously can't tell shit from clay draugr.(...) By all means keep resorting to personal attacks to protect your vanity.

Anyone reading the entire thread can make their own assessments as to -my- personal attacks, vanity, etc. This started out as a civil discussion, and could have remained so. You are obviously an experienced player with H/H builds, and I would welcome a return to the thread's initial civility. I don't feel I'm to blame for its degeneration, but will accept some fault there also.

I do appreciate your testing the build and I have actually implemented some of the suggestions from you and others. Though I did post initially, "all comments welcome," my intent was not to seek advice or help by posting this build, as I've stated repeatedly. Being told it's a "bad build," over and over, without any compelling underlying reasoning, and lots of bad analysis posing as "constructive criticism" and snide hot air comments is a bit much. Especially in light of the fact that it is the result of a year of experimentation with H/H builds and isn't something I just dreamed up to post here.

Snype · Apr 26, 2008, 04:54 PM // 16:54

PvE is serious business guys.

draugr · Apr 26, 2008, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snype

PvE is serious business guys.

LOL point taken.