Curse

War My Guild · Apr 22, 2008, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Antith, he did mention that Anthem of Envy does not affect allies:

Quote:

Anthem of envy. of course, only applies to allies with attack skills,

Right in the first post.

I'm a Mo Primary so I could take up the healing, but I see some serious problems with the firstly posted builds. As said, pets don't leave corpses, pets take healing when it should be used elsewhere and, of course, they disable the hero's bar whenever a res is needed. IMO, keep pets for player parties.

The builds bront posted look like a much better alternative. It's never a good idea to spread out too many skills, attribute wise. Especially on the SR primary of necromancers. SR is the whole reason these kinds of builds work and don't forget it.

I would be very interested in trying some of these builds out. I'd, of course, have to tweak them. As a Mo, the healer henchies and I could probably keep the damage at bay, maybe I could do it with an HB build.

And as Antith said, 3 wipes per vanquish is not all that great. I've vanquished 300 enemy areas with 2 or 3 deaths(not wipes) using the Sabway.

Antithesis · Apr 22, 2008, 01:03 PM // 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by War My Guild

Antith, he did mention that Anthem of Envy does not affect allies

I see that but...

Quote:

Originally Posted by draugr

High adrenaline shouts fueled by ntouka are available quickly to frontload team damage and SY shouts [Go for the eyes] and [anthem of envy] from 18 physical damage dealers (W/P, 3 necro heroes, Zho, Aidan, 3 pets, 9 minions]

...and...

Quote:

Originally Posted by draugr

The strengths of the build are 1. Front loaded shout dmg via GFTE and anthem of envy from 18 dmg dealers (17 going forward as I miss Herta and have decided Aidan ain't all that)

...are misleading. Anthem of Envy does not affect Minions / Pets because they're using auto-attacks, not Skills. It's more accurate to say "...via GFTE from 18 damage dealers including pets and minions, and Anthem of Envy from 6 party members..."

Nitpicking i know, but if you're gonna say it, say it right.

draugr · Apr 22, 2008, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Have edited the first post to reflect changes to the build. Thanks for the helpful comments so far. Have added [anthem of weariness] and ["never surrender!"] to the human bar, and gotten rid of the attack skill (keeping it though, until i bite the bullet and go grind 40k more luxon for SY). I hate the arena run...

Have replaced SOLS with MOP on the SS bar, and have replaced Aidan with Herta in the hench lineup. I do appreciate the comments about hex/condition management, but in Varajar, there's no blind and little hexing. Lots of long cast elemental hexes are getting interrupted or applied to minions/pets. Keeping hex aria for blurred vision and the vaettir hexes. Anthem of envy was working ok but was requiring too much micro, so will spam anthem of weariness instead.

Antithesis, nitpick all you like, idc. Stated plainly in the first post that I understood the mechanics of anthem of envy. You should probably just let that one lie... it's as if you think I'm trying to mislead someone. I can assure you that's not the case. Armchair that the build is weak all you want, and lol a the wipe comment. I was testing the build and stated such. Incidientally, wipes are irrelevant to me as long as the run is generally faster and I don't lose bonuses. I'm not looking for a "no wipes" trophy for my HOM, just to get rep grind done with H/H as quickly as possible.

BTW, I HATE pets and MM in general pve, never use them on nongrinding builds. But after two years of resisting using MM, have finally been converted over the last six months. The dmg and dmg mitigation are just too good. The pet thing came about by accident without going into detail, and worked so well with my rit, that in H/H REP FARMING (not vanquishing, not elite dungeons, not FOW farming... outdoors REP FARMING), I will always try to put a pet on the bar. Pet = weak, nonelite flesh golem with no upkeep or degen. Pet = barbs whacker, Pet = aggro magnet in a caster/ranged team, Pet = +10ish dps boost to the toon unbuffed - more buffed, Pet = easily ressed with no DP, Pet = 540hp added to the party's hp pool (x 3 = 1620 hp/8 = 202 hp per party member). All for four slots out of 24. I've never had a death that I can tell was caused by pet death, but have had MANY prevented.

So the pets are staying in the lineup. The interrupts are staying in the lineup. Would love to use a human channeler to buff with splinter and ancestor's, but not trusting a hero to do it better than they can volley and interrupt. This is an intriguing idea enough to try though, so going to do some tests tonight with the Icy veins necro as a N/RT instead and put splinter, ancestor's and foul feast on him instead of the pet, volley and savage shot. Will post how it goes. If it outperforms the icy N/R, will make it permanent.

Did more testing late last night at the master of damage with only me and the heroes. Once mins are built, the avg is 200ish dps per second. That doesn't reflect SS, much death nova - olias was healing the mins, icy veins bombs or mop.

Thanks again for the comments.

EDIT: and thanks bront, for the coding. I tried to do that initially using the [build] syntax, but must have done it wrong.

Bront · Apr 23, 2008, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by draugr

EDIT: and thanks bront, for the coding. I tried to do that initially using the [build] syntax, but must have done it wrong.

No problem. You had some extra spaces in there causing issues. Apparently, order is important too. build, name, prof, atributes.

I did some more thinking, and think I could do a bit better.

[build Name="Bront's MM Condition Shedder" prof=N Dea=12+1+3 Sou=12+1][Jagged Bones][Animate Bone Minions][Death Nova][Blood of the Master][Putrid Bile][Foul Feast][Infuse Condition][Signet of Lost Souls][/build]

Still like this build. Conditions are mitigated to minions, who promptly blow up faster. However, this is probably all the copndition removal you need beyond the Hench monks. So that means the SS necro needs a tweek.

----------------

[build Name="Bront's SS Interrupter" prof=N/Rt Cur=11+1+1 Cha=10 Sou=10+1][Spiteful Spirit][Barbs][Weaken Armor][Enfeebling Blood][Wailing Weapon][Warmonger's Weapon][Signet of Lost Souls][Death Pact Signet][/build]

This works, to add interuptions to the mix. Not sure if Heros will weaponspell a minion, but if they do, then this is quite effective.

[build Name="Bront's SS Healer" prof=N/Rt Cur=11+1+1 Res=10 Sou=10+1][Spiteful Spirit][Barbs][Weaken Armor][Enfeebling Blood][Vengeful Weapon][Wielder's Boon][Signet of Lost Souls][Death Pact Signet][/build]

This adds a little healing to the mix. Both are cheep heals, and Wielder's Boon will work well with the BHA hero I'll post below. You can always swap that out for [Soothing Memories] or [Mend Body and Soul]

----------------

Now, the final hero I wasn't thrilled about. So here are a few options.

[build name="Antithesis' BHA BM" prof=Ranger Expertise=11+1 Marksmanship=10+1+1 Beast=10+1][broad head arrow][savage shot][distracting shot][volley][needling shot][call of haste][charm animal][comfort animal][/build]

Stolen from Antithesis

Solid BHA interuptor build with a pet. Not sure I like Call of Haste, but not sure what else to put in there (Lightning reflexes maybe?)

[build name="Bront's BHA Rit" prof=R/Rt Expertise=11+1 Marksmanship=10+1+1 cha=10][broad head arrow][savage shot][distracting shot][volley][Splinter Weapon][needling shot][Lightning Reflexes][Death Pact Signet][/build]

Splinter Weapon, works with the Healer well in distributing weapon spells, has Defense, IAS, and a res.

[build name="Bront's general Interupt Mesmer" prof=Me/Mo Dom=12+1 Fas=8+1 Ins=10+1][cof][power spike][power drain][empathy][Energy Surge][Chaos Storm][Leech Signet][Vengeance][/build]
Cry, PS, ES, Empathy and Chaos storm all provide armor ignoring damage, Chaos Storm can cause energy pressure, and at the moment is dirt cheep at 5E (if the cost reverts, I'd swap it out for something else). You get 4 interupts, 2 skill interupts, some Melee hate, and a mesmer FC with Vengeance is quite nice, you'll never notice you were missing a dead buddy. (Just remember to shut it off when you're out of battle). It's an alternative interrupter to the ranger, and can provide a fairly sizable amount of damage.

-----------

I'd it's fairly flexible. MM, SS Healer and BHA Rt for more physical areas. MM, SS Interrupter and Mesmer for areas swarming with casters or just large groups of enemies, or mix and match however you like. I'd probably take the Mesmer over the Ranger anwhere where I can take a ranger interrupter henchman though.

I'll Have to test this out a bit, but it looks promising.

Wonder if I should start my own thread at this point?

War My Guild · Apr 23, 2008, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Those are pretty slick, bront, but one question: How is the first build for the SS a Healer? I believe having 3 weapon spells in a team are a little much, especially when heroes practically fumble the offensive weapon skills every time.

If you really want to get in more weapon spells, I'd swap out Lightning Reflexes in the BHA's build and stick in a Channeling Weapon skill in there. I think a BHA Ranger with 2 interrupts should be plenty in most areas, so take out the channeling points on the SS and stick them into Resto for Life, Mend Body n Soul or Spirit Light on him instead.

The only real problem I see with your builds are the lack of hex removal(not too bad, but still) and the lack of prots. Sabway has prots, but this doesn't. As a player, I believe a prot healer would be a good idea for those builds.

Interesting. Field testing please?

Antithesis · Apr 23, 2008, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bront

[build Name="Bront's N hero MM Condition Shedder" prof=N Dea=12+1+3 Sou=12+1][Jagged Bones][Animate Bone Minions][Death Nova][Blood of the Master][Putrid Bile][Foul Feast][Infuse Condition][Signet of Lost Souls][/build]

I use this setup from time to time. Also consider dropping 3 points into Curses, add a Minor Curses rune and drop Infuse Condition for [[plague sending] of up to 2 conditions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bront

[build Name="Bront's N/Rt hero SS Interrupter" prof=N/Rt Cur=11+1+1 Cha=10 Sou=10+1][Spiteful Spirit][Barbs][Weaken Armor][Enfeebling Blood][Wailing Weapon][Warmonger's Weapon][Signet of Lost Souls][Death Pact Signet][/build]

I see why you're going with the interrupts (to keep with the theme of the thread), but with the third hero being a dedicated / hybrid interrupter you're better off with Splinter / Ancestor's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bront

[build name="Antithesis' BHA BM" prof=Ranger Expertise=11+1 Marksmanship=10+1+1 Beast=10+1][broad head arrow][savage shot][distracting shot][volley][needling shot][call of haste][charm animal][comfort animal][/build]

Stolen from Antithesis

Solid BHA interuptor build with a pet. Not sure I like Call of Haste, but not sure what else to put in there (Lightning reflexes maybe?)

Cheeky bugger

Yeah Call of Haste and Needling Shot can be swapped for whatever BM skills you like. I'd be testing skills like [[bestial pounce] and [[bestial mauling], [[call of protection], [[predatory bond]...

If you slot a KD skill onto the player bar, Call of Haste + Bestial Mauling is a promising setup to include on the OP's build in place of Volley + Savage Shot on the 3 Heroes. That's one less line to spec into making for stronger Heroes and stronger/more useful Pets, and Heroes can use more beneficial class-specific weapons. eg

[jagged bones][animate bone minions][death nova][blood of the master][call of haste][bestial mauling][charm animal][signet of lost souls]

[spiteful spirit][barbs][weaken armor][enfeebling blood][call of haste][bestial mauling][charm animal][signet of lost souls]

[broad head arrow][savage shot][distracting shot][volley][call of haste][bestial mauling][charm animal][revive animal]

Might be a little excessive on the Dazed front, but Dazed wins PvE.

If you don't have a KD skill handy, [[disrupting lunge] is an obvious substitute for [[bestial mauling]. Try [[barrage] as the Ranger elite and maybe [[epidemic] to spread Dazed in place of Volley. Barrage + AoE dazed should be fun. You could also try [[broad head arrow] + [[splinter weapon] + [[volley] + [[body shot] for e-management.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bront

[build name="Bront's BHA Rit" prof=R/Rt Expertise=11+1 Marksmanship=10+1+1 cha=10][broad head arrow][savage shot][distracting shot][volley][Splinter Weapon][needling shot][Lightning Reflexes][Death Pact Signet][/build]

Hero Ranger's are pretty crap with SW on the bar. Expect energy issues. Try [[body shot] for additional energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bront

[build name="Bront's general Interupt Mesmer" prof=Me/Mo Dom=12+1 Fas=8+1 Ins=10+1][cof][power spike][power drain][empathy][Energy Surge][Chaos Storm][Leech Signet][Vengeance][/build]

Energy denial in PvE is meh, particularly in HM and you're likely to have energy problems. Stick with DarkSpirit's original build or try a tweaked version -

[mantra of recovery][power lock][power spike][cry of frustration][drain enchantment][power drain][epidemic][vengeance]

MoR is the strength of the build for the 33% recharge on interrupts, e-management skills and Vengeance. Epidemic has synergy with Dazed from BHA/Bestial Mauling and Plague Sending on the MM.

Quote:

Wonder if I should start my own thread at this point?

Leave the build in this thread, it's an evolution of the OP's concept.

Bront · Apr 23, 2008, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Energy denial in PvE is meh, particularly in HM and you're going to have energy problems. Stick with DarkSpirit's Mantra of Recovery version or my tweaked version -

[mantra of recovery][power lock][power spike][cry of frustration][drain enchantment][power drain][epidemic][vengeance]

And leave the build in this thread, it's an evolution of the OP's concept.

I use E-Surge for damage more than E-Denial, though it is effective on some monk mobs as that too. Epidemic on that bar isn't too efective either without a lot of conditions being spread around, which this build won't do. I guess you replace it with Empathy and that's a better general use bar.

And idealy, power lock isn't needed, and leech signet helps for extra E-management.

But I can see using Mantra of recovery instead of E-Surge on the build I had earlier.

And yeah, the weapon spell interupts probably work better if you use an Ele Nuker or a Barrage ranger (or the ever popular Critical Barrager) build on the 3rd hero.

Quote:

Originally Posted by War My Guild

Those are pretty slick, bront, but one question: How is the first build for the SS a Healer? I believe having 3 weapon spells in a team are a little much, especially when heroes practically fumble the offensive weapon skills every time.

He's not, he's the interuptor. The second one is the healer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by War My Guild

If you really want to get in more weapon spells, I'd swap out Lightning Reflexes in the BHA's build and stick in a Channeling Weapon skill in there. I think a BHA Ranger with 2 interrupts should be plenty in most areas, so take out the channeling points on the SS and stick them into Resto for Life, Mend Body n Soul or Spirit Light on him instead.

The only real problem I see with your builds are the lack of hex removal(not too bad, but still) and the lack of prots. Sabway has prots, but this doesn't. As a player, I believe a prot healer would be a good idea for those builds.

Interesting. Field testing please?

Yeah, I'll field test this with my Monk and see how it goes. That will make up for the lack of Prots and Hex removal in my case.

The only reason I was looking for a second weapon spell was to power the Wielder's Boon on the healer. Otherwise, use the other RT heals I mentioned. Won't be a powerful healer, but work fairly well.

As for Prots, in an 8 man team, bring a Prot monk, but henchies provide a level of protection anyway. Another option would be to throw a few on the Mesmer, or throw things like [shatter hex] on her.

Antithesis · Apr 23, 2008, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bront

I use E-Surge for damage more than E-Denial, though it is effective on some monk mobs as that too. Epidemic on that bar isn't too efective either without a lot of conditions being spread around, which this build won't do.

And idealy, power lock isn't needed, and leech signet helps for extra E-management.

[[Bestial Mauling] + [[Plague Sending] + [[Epidemic]. You might as well use the conditions picked up by Foul Feast against the enemy.

Mesmers are better at shutdown than damage, 33% faster recharge = win vs casters in Varajar Fells. A Mesmer will interrupt multiple foes, Power Lock can disable Maelstrom on one Ice Imp while it tosses Power Spike on another. Leech Signet is weaker than [[drain enchantment].

ZenRgy · Apr 23, 2008, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Needs moar [Protective Was Kaolai]!

Bront · Apr 23, 2008, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

[Bestial Mauling] + [Plague Sending] + [Epidemic]. You might as well use the conditions picked up by Foul Feast against the enemy.

Mesmers are better at shutdown than damage, 33% faster recharge = win vs casters in Varajar Fells. A Mesmer will interrupt multiple foes, Power Lock can disable Maelstrom on one Ice Imp while it tosses Power Spike on another. Leech Signet is weaker than [drain enchantment].

Good points, though Drain Enchantment is conditional on opposing enchantments.

If you go back to Plague Sending and FF on the SS Necro like my first build, you can throw Protection spells on the MM (Prot Spirit or Spirit Bond, and Aegis).

So, that ends up with these three builds...

[build name="Bront's MM Bomber" prof=N/Mo Dea=12+3+1 Sou=8+1 Pro=10][Jagged Bones][Animate Bone Minions][Death Nova][Blood of the Master][Putrid Bile][Protective Spirit][Aegis][Signet of Lost Souls][/build]

If you want to not spec in Prot, you can stick in a resurect and/or other death magic spells. Fairly standard minion bomber beyond that.

[build name="Bront's SS Necro Feaster" prof=N/Rt Cur=12+1+1 Sou=12+1][Spiteful Spirit][Barbs][Mark of Pain][Enfeebling Blood][Foul Feast][Plague Sending][Signet of Lost Souls][Death Pact Signet][/build]

Disable DPS durring combat and use it manualy. Or replace it with Weaken Armor. Beyond that, the SS helps the Minions do damage with Barbs and Orders, SS is always functional, and she'll cure conditions and send them to opponents.

[build name="Bront's Interupt Mesmer" prof=Me/Mo Dom=12+1+1 Fas=10+1 Ins=8+1][CoF][Power Lock][Power Spike][Power Drain][Hex Eater Signet][Epidemic][Mantra of Recovery][Vengeance][/build]

Based off the Dark Spirit build, and with help from Antithesis. Drain Enchantment or Leech Signet can be used instead of Hex Eater Signet for low hex areas. You can throw Empathy in there if you need instead of Power Spike.

On a side note, I noticed I was using Weaken Armor over Order of Pain origional. My mistake. Nevermind.

Antithesis · Apr 23, 2008, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bront

Good points, though Drain Enchantment is conditional on opposing enchantments.

If there's a Monk, Ele, Assassin or Derv in an enemy mob you'll find plenty of ammo for Drain Enchantment. Varajar Fells is full of them.

PS I don't think Heroes can use Shatter Enchantment.

Bront · Apr 23, 2008, 03:00 AM // 03:00

It was shatter hex.

Ok, I think I like this better. Revised in the post up 2 spots. It adds protection and hex removal.

Antithesis · Apr 23, 2008, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bront

It was shatter hex.

Ok, I think I like this better. Revised in the post up 2 spots. It adds protection and hex removal.

Sorry i meant [[shatter hex].

Not sure about [[order of pain], i'd leave it out as you're not spec'ing into Blood and the sac is a bitch without a full bar built around it. You could try Rac's Orders N/Rt.

For interest's sake, here's what i use for HM Varajar Fells -

[Jagged Bones][animate bone minions][death nova][blood of the master][putrid bile][ancestors rage][splinter weapon][signet of lost souls]

[mantra of recovery][power lock][cry of frustration][power spike][drain enchantment][power drain][hex eater signet][vengeance]

[weapon of quickening][mend body and soul][spirit light][protective was kaolai][shadowsong][life][signet of lost souls][death pact signet]

I like the 50% Rezmer recharge. Casters present a greater threat than Physicals, so i leave the SS out. Shadowsong takes care of anything that penetrates the meatshield and things blow up fast enough to not worry about Barbs etc. I leave Vengeance enabled on the Mesmer, the corpses can be a good supply of Minion fodder in low corpse areas.

Bront · Apr 23, 2008, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Doh, yeah, forgot that's a BM skill (Orders), will fix

Antithesis · Apr 23, 2008, 05:38 AM // 05:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by draugr

Did more testing late last night at the master of damage with only me and the heroes. Once mins are built, the avg is 200ish dps per second. That doesn't reflect SS, much death nova - olias was healing the mins, icy veins bombs or mop.

Ahem....

That's 232 damage per second with 1 lvl 19 Pet and 2 x lvl 5's and 10 Minions. I could have cheated and dropped [[brutal strike] onto their bars for additional DPS, but i didn't.

I ran a D-Slasher because your W/P build is silly and i couldn't be arsed sticking Great Dwarf Weapon into a build, i used Brawling Headbutt to test Bestial Mauling usage. I was careful to run down the bar from D-Slash > Brawling Headbutt > Steelfang Slash > Go for the Eyes in keeping with the spirit of the build. I could have cheated and spammed D-Slash but i didn't.

The builds are in the Pic and are close to those i suggested - I brought Mark of Pain and the Splinter Weapon version of the Ranger.

And looky here...

A MM, Curser and D-Slasher as God-mode intended, 10 Minions + 1 Pet for 233 DPS. Granted, 2 of my Pets were lvl 5 so it's not an entirely fair comparison, but both builds are doing more than 200 DPS. Sorry, but your build could be improved and/or your pets could be dropped.

Bront · Apr 23, 2008, 11:32 AM // 11:32

DOh, Mark of Pain is what I wanted, not Order of Pain.

RavagerOfDreams · Apr 24, 2008, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

big pics and much text

lol my sin kills faster all by his lonesome

impressive amounts of damage though /tiphat

Bront · Apr 24, 2008, 06:24 AM // 06:24

FYI, I moved discussion of my evolved build to this thread. Sorry to bogart this one

Antithesis · Apr 24, 2008, 06:35 AM // 06:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by RavagerOfDreams

lol my sin kills faster all by his lonesome

impressive amounts of damage though /tiphat

The point of the post was not to boast nor to show the build does a heap of damage. It was to point out that 200+DPS is easy to do and the OP's build ain't all that.

draugr · Apr 24, 2008, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

The point of the post was not to boast nor to show the build does a heap of damage. It was to point out that 200+DPS is easy to do and the OP's build ain't all that.

A warr spamming [dragon slash] and [brawling headbutt] significantly ODs a spear chucking W/P on a totally stationary target?? Do tell... glad you took the time to screenie and prove that... what a revelation.

The reason I mentioned testing on the Master of Damage was to refute your contention that my build was not "high dmg." I never claimed my build wins some kind of master of damage award, but still maintain that 200ish dps on a three hero/human core qualifies as "high damage," especially given the other defensive and convenience attributes of the build.

On to some substantive points.

1. The first line of my first post states that I was working "too hard" on my warrior fronting H/H in NM and HM rep grinding, quest running and missions (Guess what build I was using btw sans [brawling headbutt]... eh sometimes some [triple chop] too). I thought this would be self-explanatory. Apparently not. To elaborate, I found that I was spending lots of time chasing mobs with [flail] on when [enraging charge] wasn't up as they ran around in their AI fashion trying to hit the kiting monks and other squishies. I estimate it was taking me an average of 2 seconds of non swinging time (maybe more) between mobs due to distance and obstacles, just an estimate, but lots of wasted time, effort, and loss of dps. I wanted a build that would require little micro, do high front loaded dmg, party utility, and not have me running around so much. Hence, W/P, lots of useful high adrenal skills in the paragon skillset, with a fast attack speed that builds adrenaline quickly. A para would be better, but the reality is I'm running a warrior, not a para, through the expansions, so I make do.

2. [Rage of the Ntouka] allows near instant use of the entire bar, at the beginning of the battle when I want it. I don't have to spend threeish seconds getting to the first mob. If I get blinded, blurred, hexed, etc. I can still instantly front load the adrenal skills and use them. I have found that the quicker the first top priority mob goes down, the quicker the battle. Quicker battles = faster farming, and this sort of thing isn't reflected by master of dmg results.

3. I can stand where I am throughout the entire battle and hit mobs. Though the damage on the W/P is only 35-40ish, and the D-slash does 70ish, more ranged dmg is actually applied to mobs due to not having to spend time moving between them and getting body blocked by other mobs or my own minions or teammates or geography. Sometimes they ball up, that's great, but in my experience, they spend more time spread out. Yes, D-slash is better, no comparison, but for farming rep and running around, it gets old and is tiresome chasing mobs, getting blocked, etc. as a melee. Just the advantages of ranged attack that everyone will agree with. In a human team, I'll go melee almost always. That's where warrs shine as we can all agree. I had the same troubles on my sin, so turned him into a crit wanding monk knockoff to great effect, but that's another build...

4. I had started using sabway months, maybe even a year ago... not certain, on other characters after playing around with all kinds of hero builds. My account is UAX, so tweaking hero bars is one way I enjoy the game. Sabway is great for its purpose, highly defensive with the N/Rt, but it is too defensive for NM and HM easy area rep farming and needs more physical dmg dealers.

How to add more offense, while sacrificing as little defense as possible? My initial solution was pets because they made great targets for [splinter weapon] and [great dwarf weapon]. Unlike casters, they are always attacking, maximizing the buffs, and unlike minions, they are easy to target in the party window. Moreover, while MM and company sometimes lag the group, pets don't, and give a generally faster meatshield than minions. Many times, before minions are built, or running areas or missions, or when mins get blown up by aoe, there is little physical dmg in a three necro team to fuel [barbs], [mark of pain], two of the chief dmg engines of sabway. So... I started using pets on the rit with great success. Farming rep on my rit is fast and effortless, in large part due to this.

5. While using the pets in modified sabway, I noticed overall dmg to the team was going down more than I had expected. As posted earlier, pets add a nice hp buffer to the team, they body block mobs, suck up hexes, aoe conditions and aggro, do extra dmg with barbs, are heartier than minions, are totally passive, cost no energy, take up one slot on the bar, don't get dp, don't degen,are easily ressed in a batch, add to the number of potential bombs... these are most of the advantages there are others. I noticed that my hench monks and casters weren't kiting as much with 3 540 hp 80 armor units added to the meatshield. Moreover, pets cut down the chance of heroes doing the wrong thing at the wrong time. I want the MM raising mins, applying death nova, etc., (but don't mind at all if he takes a second to hit a barbed mob with volley or to interrupt a maelstrom, will deal with the ranged attack caster thing next). In open spaces without lots of traps, the pet slot has proven itself useful in any hero /R bar to me and I highly recommend it. BTW, in my rit H/H build, I had [call of haste] also.

6. So I have three necros with pets. This worked great on my rit, and was planning to do that with the warr. I noticed the necros always had full nrg bars, and lots of recharge time with nothing to cast, wanding stuff. So began thinking, how could I use the extra energy and time? The answer was to put recurve bows on the necros, and replace [call of haste] with [volley] and [savage shot]. Tried it, and noticed the dramatic increase of interrupts immediately. Bad stuff was still getting through, but lots of stuff was being interrupted. We all know how good AI is at this, so no surprise. [Volley] is perhaps interchangeable with some other attack skill, but is low nrg, fast recharge, and hits multiple stuff.

I find that the necros will shoot an initial volley, then cast once or twice, then volley, then cast. This has the unforeseen benefit of getting the pets to engage faster, as sometimes with non martial necros, they don't actually attack while the necro is casting. Because the necros usually start off from the edge of aggro with a volley, the pets engage instantly. I find bow shooting to be an efficient use of their time. They interrupt LOTS, stuff still gets through, but mobs rarely get a long cast spell, healing sig, etc. off. I don't see any reduction in their casting effectiveness at all from using bows, and the difference between the necro abilities at 12-13 is not noticeably gimped from 14-15. I find they only need 7-9 SR to still have great nrg running a pool of 45ish nrg, so the staves/wands aren't missed. Normally, I wouldn't run a 4 atrribute split, but on necro heroes, I don't miss the last expensive points in curses, blood, death or SR, as I used to run three attributes on them all. If anything, they are much more effective generally.

With pets and bows, I add 6 physical dmg dealers for [barbs], [mark of pain] and ["Go for the eyes!"], three for [anthem of envy]. I have tried N/Me, and they work fine, but lack some in fast killing power, and I find that heroes do not use cast interrupts as well as they use bow and melee interrupts, no evidence, just seems that way. The beauty of [savage shot] is that it interrupts any skills, so compresses the bars from a standard interrupter some. It may even allow me to drop zho for cynn.

7. I tried the Icy necro as a N/Rt two nights ago with [splinter weapon] and ancestors. He worked great, could notice increased damage on some of the easier mob groups in Varajar, cows especially. He cast the spells fairly well, splinter always on the two other volleyers, never on me though. Once I got to the harder parts where you end up fighting cents, vaettirs and/or elementals at the same time, I noticed that because these mobs are more spread generally, splinter and ancestors weren't optimizing, interrupts were fewer, and the pets were absorbing 1/3 less aggro. My hench healers were kiting more, casting less, and taking significantly more dmg. In the end, the dmg bonus on the easy mobs was not worth the defensive sacrifice, so back to N/R on the icy necro.

8. Last night, I H/H ed through GOLEM and Destruction's Depths NM, easily on the first try despite having forgotten much of the missions as I haven't done them in awhile. The disc at the end of DD gave some trouble, and we had a couple wipes there, but the PETS and I eventually wedged him up against a wall and took him down while the rest of the party healed me and the pets from a distance. No great achievement, but I mention it because without the pets, and with one flameburst killing minions, having heartier body blockers in the party made a huge difference, as that boss will make short work of most any offense oriented H/H party when allowed to move freely.

The build is working great, is an excellent build for its stated purpose, and for those warrs who want to use H/H to kill quickly without running around in melee, please give it a try.

And Antithesis, please spend more time "proving" with screenies that a D-slash, brawling hb ODs other warrior builds... amusing.